[Deck] Belcher

[Versus]

Been slowly chipping away at these threads to get a better understanding of the current meta. While all of DTB's are solid, they don't interest me as far as building them. This deck raised an eyebrow though. It's got "Prosbloom" written all over it. Not so much as the win condition is concerned, but the efficiency of the engine is incredible. I like it.

I was shocked there were no Monoliths on any of the builds, but I guess they aren't neccesary...

[Bovinious]

I assume you mean Grim Monolith, which happens to be banned in Legacy. But your right it wouldnt be needed if they were legal.

[Versus]

D'oh! I need to go look at that ban list again. Oh well, at least this wasn't as bad as the Earthcraft debacle from 2 weeks ago.

[T_B]

"I don't know usually you won't have any mana producers and maybe only one card in hand after a first turn empty the warrens."

Unless you played a land, chrome mox, or drew into a SSG, Petal, or had a mana producer in hand. I too think that it is a little un-nesissary, but the SB itself allows for it.

Edit: like 3 people posted while I typed. Or I am blind.

[Brehn]

I don't think Goblin War Strike is unnecessary. There are enough decks that can produce many creatures quickly (Ichorid, TES, IGGy/r, ...), but don't always do this first turn. So 2nd turn swing, 3rd turn Wish for GWS, then alpha strike can sometimes be the only chance to win if you went for EtW. And honestly, the odds aren't _that_ low you can do it on turn 3. I've drawn into quite a lot of hands with both Burning Wish and EtW lately.

[Bryant Cook]

I don't think Goblin War Strike is unnecessary. There are enough decks that can produce many creatures quickly (Ichorid, TES, IGGy/r, ...), but don't always do this first turn. So 2nd turn swing, 3rd turn Wish for GWS, then alpha strike can sometimes be the only chance to win if you went for EtW. And honestly, the odds aren't _that_ low you can do it on turn 3. I've drawn into quite a lot of hands with both Burning Wish and EtW lately.

I think that it's more important that Goblin Was Strike (GWS) kills a turn earlier before alot of hate comes down. May this hate be Plague, EE, Deed, ect... That's why its played.

[dlevsApiJ]

My list at the moment:
Mana ( 42 )
1 Taiga
4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Seething Song
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual


Wishes ( 4 )
4 Burning Wish

Kills ( 6 )
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens


Other ( 8 )
4 Serum Powder
4 Pyroblast


Side ( 15 )

4 Shattering Spree
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Simplify
1 Rough // Tumble
1 Cave-In
1 Reverent Silence

I only play 1 land, you kill much more/faster with the belcher, the problem is that when you pick a Land Grant when you have a land you cant to anything with it, but because you kill much more/faster, this is better in my opinion.
I also play 4 Serum Powders, i think they are very good in this deck, i have never had problems with them, sometimes i have even played them, cause i had 2 mana to much, it gives you a higher stormcount, and more mana in later turns if you need it. The only problem is to Topdeck them, but you also dont want to topdeck a kill when you need a mana source... I know you are going to say i should cut them,, but i won't do that ;).
I play 4 Pyroblast main, as minimal protection, they are much better then ReB, cause you can play them as stom count, on a non-blue spell.
I also play no black, cause you dont need it, the only thing why i like to play black is duress, without the black rituals its also good (whit the black rituals, you cant always play all your rituals, cause of wrong color mana...), and the Bayou isnt very good with your Belcher..

Then my SB, i want to play Dimishing Returns, maybe in the place of Reverent Silence ? I think thats the best thing to do.
If there is somethind strange about my SB, please say it, then i say why i play it this way.

Jip

ps. my english isnt very good

Edit: a question: is it better to board in 4 Spree's, or 3 Spree's and keep the 4th for a Burning Wish in the SB?

[ClearSkies]

Of course you leave one Shattering Spree in the sideboard, so it will feels like you are playing 7 of them. (3 main board with 4 chances to wish for one)

In my limited experience, I found that Diminishing Returns is a really useful wish card.

On a smaller note, your number of kills is 7, not 6. (Excluding Burning Wishes)

[dlevsApiJ]

Cut the Reverent Silence for a Diminishing Returns ?

[Lego]

Try Street Wraith in your Serum Powder slot. It makes it harder to mulligan rather than easier, but I've always found that the deck mulligans pretty well, and Wraith is not as terrible a topdeck.

[Bryant Cook]

Try Street Wraith in your Serum Powder slot. It makes it harder to mulligan rather than easier, but I've always found that the deck mulligans pretty well, and Wraith is not as terrible a topdeck.

The problem with Street Wraith is it makes mulliganning insane. Keeping a 6 mana source hand and a street wraith, it seems like suicide to me. The deck only plays 11 relevant spells. I think you're better off knowing what you're going to draw over a random card. Personally I think the Street Wraith slot should be Dark Ritual.

[dlevsApiJ]

And i think the slot should be Serum Powder . I think black isn't good enough for this deck, without it is better (no Bayou for your belcher, and "never" wrong mana..).
Serum Powders is really great. And most of the time you do it with your begin hand, and dont topdeck very much.

Mvg

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

The problem with Street Wraith is it makes mulliganning insane. Keeping a 6 mana source hand and a street wraith, it seems like suicide to me. The deck only plays 11 relevant spells. I think you're better off knowing what you're going to draw over a random card. Personally I think the Street Wraith slot should be Dark Ritual.

Well.. the point of Street Wraith is to count it as mana. That example hand you pointed out I would ship in a heat beat. Street Wraith should be used to find mana sources, NOT win conditions. I'm going to start testing Serum Powder, but I just don't like the card that much personally.

[dlevsApiJ]

But what of you count the SW as mana, an you can only combo with the mana that it should give you. Maybe the SW gives you a kill ;).

[cheddercaveman]

Well.. the point of Street Wraith is to count it as mana. That example hand you pointed out I would ship in a heat beat. Street Wraith should be used to find mana sources, NOT win conditions. I'm going to start testing Serum Powder, but I just don't like the card that much personally.

You can't really *count* street wraith as anything. You don't know what it'll be. You only have 1 or 2 lands of course, but the problem is that you don't know what the wraith is getting you for your 2 life. In your opening hand you need to see what everything would be, wraith doesnt let you do this. Also, people talk about playing it and making their deck realistically 56 cards, but then they build it as a 60 card deck. This is an odd deck, but thats still how the situation normally works

[zulander]

You generally count SW as a random card in your deck, but in a deck with 49 mana and 11 kill you can realistically count it as a mana source since the odds are that you'll end up drawing one off the top. However, if you have a hand of 5 mana, 1 kill and 1 sw you should keep it. the SW will most likely be mana and even if it's a kill you'll should be able to go off with 5 mana and a kill con in your hand.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Ok. Maybe I didn't make myself perfectly clear. SW is "generally" a mana source. OBV. you can't classify what the card will be EVERY single time. My point was to mulligan hands where there is a Street Wraith and mana accelerants.

[Reagens]

I went to a tournament this weekend and why not share the knowledge...

35 people attending.

6 rounds of swiss.

Match 1 mono-green randomness
2-0
Took my time to combo second turn twice.
He didn't sideboard so I was feeling pretty safe.

Match 2 goblins
2-1
Game 1 is easy. Combo first turn for 12 tokens or something.
Game 2. I die because of first turn chalice (I had no mana sources left because of that) and first turn lackey.
Game 3. I can make just enough tokens turn 1 to kill him.

Match 3 loam variant
2-1
Game 1. easy kill with tokens
Game 2. I can make a lot of tokens, but because he used an engineered explosives to kill my first turn petal, I am quite sure he has pyroclasm or something so I decide to wait. I eventually can't find a belcher in time. I die just the turn before I can activate belcher.
Game 3. he resolves a pyrostatic pillar. eventually I can belch for 16 and because of fetches and his own pillar he dies...

Match 4 hanni-fish

Game 1. Win with tokens, altough he had force and I land granted, but I had 1 street wraith causing him to counter the wrong spell.
Game 2. I die because of stifle
Game 3. I start a hand with too little acceleration, but with two red blasts. I decide to keep. He resolves a meddling mage on empty the warrens. Eventually I decide to go. We have a little counter war and because I in can burning wish, sac LED and play tendrils for 20...
I think that the sideboarding plan for this kind of decks is sufficient.

I draw the next two rounds...


Top 8

Goblins
1-2

Altough I can't go off first turn I decide to keep. Eventually I make 12 tokens which was only enough because I was able to burning wish for goblin war strike.
Second game he plays a first turn chalice with lackey. Leaving me manaless. He kills me the turn before I would have been able to activate a belcher.
Third game.
I have to mulligan into 6. Leaving me a hand which is a little short of acceleration. I decide to keep. He has lackey, but only piledriver to follow up next turn. And of course chalice for zero. After two turns he sees a warchief and has another chalice (on 1). I can burning wish for cave-in and wipe the board. Next turn he has another warchief lackey and something else.
He also wanted to resolve another chalice at 0 but that was obviously countered by his other chalice...

Conclusions:

Anything that attacks your artifact mana base is practically instant doom. Because you have to play 3-4 cards sometimes to kill them. Leaving you at nothing.
I always seem to struggle game 2, even when the match-up should still be rather favorable (goblins, loam). On the other hand I won the match against hanni-fish, which was quite a surprise.
If there is anything in the cardpool that would make it easier to find a belcher, that would be great. In the whole tournament I used belcher only 1 time.

[Shugyosha]

@ Serum Powder
Serum Powder may nice when goldfishing at home or playing against 90% matchups but what about playing against decks with FOW etc.?

You win the die roll, take another seven with Serum Powder and keep the new seven. Your opponent sees your removed cards and knows that he should better mull to a Force to survive the first turn.
This deck is about explosive first and second turn plays smashing the opponent before he even knows what hit him. But Serum Powder is like: I tell you what I play and get another seven for it OK?

And if something goes wrong with your combo or you still have to hold a bad hand this card is the most awful topdeck you could have.

@Street Wraith
Street Wraith, Dark Ritual and even the shitty Serum Powder are in the same slot. So please people don't come up with the same situation of six mana sources + X again and again. If you have six + SW you mulligan it just like any other hand without a kill condition.

Wraith is definately playable but I think the black list with Ritual and Bayou is better. Dark Ritual "is a hell of a drug" and you can try to kill a wounded opponent with tendrils when there is no LED available. The black list can also play Duress instead of Pyroblasts in the board as it is much better to handle the hate you face. Sure it can't handle Meddling Mages but that's why Cave-In and Pyroclasm are in the board.

[dlevsApiJ]

Yes, but you lose very many matches cause of 2 land inclusive a Bayou. I play only 1 land, a Taiga, so your Belcher kill almost anytime. Its very horrible to do not enough damage with Belcher. And what i've said a different times now, 3 colors is to much, with these Rituals. But yes, duress is Very good, but not because of that card i make the splash (the rest of the cards dont make it better...).

But yes, what you say about FoW and Powder is true...