[Deck] Belcher

[Vacrix]

Wild Cantor is there to support the black. Especially when you lack Land Grant--> Bayou option you really do need a way to find the black consistently.

Yes normally I'd agree that the problem is you don't really have enough mana to play and activate. But the rituals that this lists runs are insane. Each add a net of +2 while Culling adds +3. Also, keep in mind that spare Spoils and Plunges can find you mana sources.

I admit though that its a theoretical list. I was just entertaining the idea of a list that ran Pacts instead of Land Grant.

[Ando]

Just posted a REPORT with this deck. Some bad luck in round 3 kicked me out of top 4 contention, then scooped to a guy I knew round 4 cause he had a chance to get it. The deck is good for sure, and I think it doesn't just scoop to blue, but it's tough to play against for sure.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

My list is running 4x Manamorphose and 2x Infernal Tutor MD, 1x IT SBed. I never have a problem between the 4x Manamorphose and 4x Petals allowing for black mana. I only run 2x EtW maindeck. How are you guys liking the Grim Monoliths? Is is helpful? Does the fact that it's all colorless mana suck, or does that matter much?

I consistantly miss Dark Ritual in the list, not that I've played it in Belcher before, but I'm for the most part a FT or Adn player. I really like the list and I have pretty much got all the tricks down. I'm only running one land and obv. it's a taiga. I tried a Bayou out but cut it almost immediately after it ruined my ability to win 3 games in a row. Was that just bad luck? I think not, but I'd like your opinions.

--ABC

[Ando]

My list is running 4x Manamorphose and 2x Infernal Tutor MD, 1x IT SBed. I never have a problem between the 4x Manamorphose and 4x Petals allowing for black mana. I only run 2x EtW maindeck. How are you guys liking the Grim Monoliths? Is is helpful? Does the fact that it's all colorless mana suck, or does that matter much?

I consistantly miss Dark Ritual in the list, not that I've played it in Belcher before, but I'm for the most part a FT or Adn player. I really like the list and I have pretty much got all the tricks down. I'm only running one land and obv. it's a taiga. I tried a Bayou out but cut it almost immediately after it ruined my ability to win 3 games in a row. Was that just bad luck? I think not, but I'd like your opinions.

--ABC

Monoliths are ehh, Pyretic Ritual is better I think. The being able to store mana has only come up a couple times in testing and never durring a real game.

As far as Dark Rit/Bayou goes, I don't miss Dark Ritual nearly as much as I enjoy the more consistant T1 kills even without casting Land Grant.

[Tenth]

Any new updates on this deck? I have taken it as my main legacy deck and am loving it so far.
this is my kind of deck, go big or go home!

I have been running Matt Hazard's list:
Business (11)
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Empty the Warrens
3 Street Wraith

Mana Sources (49)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Land grant
1 Taiga
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Tinder Wall
4 Rite of Flame
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

Sideboard (15)
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Ricochet trap
4 Guttural Response
3 Deus of Calamity

I have seen a lot of talk about Mox Opal in the vintage forums but do you think it could work for legacy?
Anyone else play Belcher... lets work together to perfect out 75.

i will be heading out to a local legacy night shortly, let you know how it went later.

[affinitypimp]

here is the list have been playing, and all i have to say is that its awesome.

x1 volcanic island
x1 taiga

x4 LED
x4 Lotus petal
x4 chrome mox
x4 elvish spirit guide
x4 land grant
x4 goblin charbelcher
x4 tinder wall
x4 seething song
x4 desperate ritual
x4 rite of flame
x4 manaplause
x4 ponder
x4 brainstorm
x2 infernal tutor
x4 burning wish

sideboard
x1 ill gotten gain
x1 diminishing returns
x1 empty the warrens
x1 tendrils of agony
x1 goblin war strike
x1 grapeshot
x4 xantid swarm
x4 pyroblast
x1 red elemental blast

the brainstorm and ponder are so good. they can help me win games by just searchign for stuff and setting up the perfect turn 2 or 3 to go for the throat. the 8 blue spells make the deck super consistant is all i have to say about it.

[JonBarber]

here is the list have been playing, and all i have to say is that its awesome.

x1 volcanic island
x1 taiga

x4 LED
x4 Lotus petal
x4 chrome mox
x4 elvish spirit guide
x4 land grant
x4 goblin charbelcher
x4 tinder wall
x4 seething song
x4 desperate ritual
x4 rite of flame
x4 manaplause <---?
x4 ponder
x4 brainstorm
x2 infernal tutor
x4 burning wish

sideboard
x1 ill gotten gain
x1 diminishing returns
x1 empty the warrens
x1 tendrils of agony
x1 goblin war strike
x1 grapeshot
x4 xantid swarm
x4 pyroblast
x1 red elemental blast

the brainstorm and ponder are so good. they can help me win games by just searchign for stuff and setting up the perfect turn 2 or 3 to go for the throat. the 8 blue spells make the deck super consistant is all i have to say about it.

0_0

Have you played 1 land belcher? You win turns 1 or 2 90% of the time. Why would you ever need blue? Especially when you have to waste things like lotus petals for them.

No empty the warrens?? Really?

Also, read the card land grant. Volcanic Island is not a forest.

No simian spirit guide? What advantages does version offer other than unneeded cantrips and lack of win conditions?

[affinitypimp]

lol Volcanic Island says that its clearly a mountain, therefore doubling the damage belcher does.... besides that, belcher isn't even whats dangerous... its the burning wish package that allow me to wish for nice win conditions. playtest with it before u judge. but u have bad judgment anyways since u thought volcanic island wasnt a mountain

[JonBarber]

lol Volcanic Island says that its clearly a mountain, therefore doubling the damage belcher does.... besides that, belcher isn't even whats dangerous... its the burning wish package that allow me to wish for nice win conditions. playtest with it before u judge. but u have bad judgment anyways since u thought volcanic island wasnt a mountain

I edited my statement immediately after posting it. In my head I was thinking Trop would be a better replacement, but that it wouldn't double. It still isn't fetchable off land grant which is the entire point of the deck.

Regardless, 1 land belcher plays burning wish as well. I have played it, many times to many wins. How do you expect to win game 1 against blue decks without maindeck empty the warrens? Your relying on 8 very easy to counter win conditions. Your "nice burning wish win cons" are 1 empty the warrens and 1 tendrils. Good luck with that. Your board currently does nothing to deal with hate, which is 90% of its job. Your only answer to teeg/canonist is a 1 of grapeshot in the board. You have zero outs to a trinisphere, chalice, or thorn of amethyst. Without simian spirit guide, casting your pyroblasts post board is going to be much more difficult.

I think my judgments pretty good.

[affinitypimp]

Red mana is not an issue to make. i put the elvhish spirit guide cause lots of times green is actually more needed to play a tinder wall. and with the volcanic island being there, its good to goldfish it time and time again after playing a brainstorm effect only to draw it and play that land for extra mana. and hate can holny hurt you so much presideboard. its post sideboard that you have to worry about but thats why you also get those red blast effects VS blue. O i forgot to put Eye of nowhere on my list. thats part of the sideboard too in place of one of the xantid swarms

[JonBarber]

Red mana is not an issue to make. i put the elvhish spirit guide cause lots of times green is actually more needed to play a tinder wall. and with the volcanic island being there, its good to goldfish it time and time again after playing a brainstorm effect only to draw it and play that land for extra mana. and hate can holny hurt you so much presideboard. its post sideboard that you have to worry about but thats why you also get those red blast effects VS blue. O i forgot to put Eye of nowhere on my list. thats part of the sideboard too in place of one of the xantid swarms

I still see no reasons why your version is better than 1 land. You have the same sideboard plan vs blue (blasts and swarm), less rituals to cast them, and soo many more ways to lose game 1. How do you ever expect to hit double blue against a piece of hate? Chalice for zero shuts off your petals, and thorns/trinis simply kill you. 1 land plays 11 win conditions, 8 cycle effects, has a consistant turn 1.5 win, and has the same (if not better) board plan vs blue decks. What advantages do you have over this?

[JustPAT4]

Hahaha Jon Barber I love you you cantankerous little beotch.

Can I hire you to shout down all fools that plague my existance with a combination of stout logic and demoralizing insults? ...I offer extra money if the tone of your attacks is saturated in invective... Jus' sayin'

[Koby]

I too fail to see the added benefit of Cantrips to 1-land Belcher. This deck's power doesn't come from mana, but rather being able to combo with 6 and 7 card hands.

Cards such as Manamorphose, Street Wraith, and cantrips make evaluating Keepable hands very complex and a gamble.

Thus, Brainstorm and Ponder; while powerful, don't belong in a deck that has high variability in draws.

I would advocate a 0-land Belcher list, eschewing 4 Land Grant and Taiga; but I think that the latter version is slightly more consistent.

[Tenth]

I have been considering a list that includes grim monolith, voltaic key and mox opal.
I don't have anything solid yet but it is in the works.

[popiezhius]

x1 volcanic island

If You splash blue and need blue mana, You need to play tropical island which is fetchable with land grant. All that the volcanic island will do is that sometimes the belcher shots will be non lethal and You will lose.

[marclark]

Your name is Affinitypimp

Go home

[lorddotm]

If I was a mod I would change this topic's name to: "How to Properly Feed a Troll."

[marclark]

Troll... Hungry... RAAAAWR!

Seriously though, I dont really think adding blue is the right way to go. Although blue does offer some cantrips that let you see more cards (Brainstorm, Preordain, Ponder, etc.) It also a.) adds another color, which makes the deck a bit too inconsistant IMO, And b.) makes your belches worse by either having a volcanic stuck in there 90% of the time, or using trop and not always being able to Land Grant for it, with the added hurt of trop not being a mountain.

Regular R/G belcher with Taiga is consistent enough as-is. If you like you can run "free" cantrips in that deck without screwing up your mana or having to play sub-par duals in the deck. Manamorphose at least fixes your mana while also cantripping and being on color (It is also nice for pitching to Chrome Mox, while blue cards wouldn't be all that helpful).

In general though, people seem to be gravitating away from using any cantrips, as they tend to make mulligans far more difficult than normal. When only 1 out of 2 "free" cantrips are even being played in most cases, it seems to me that more cantrips aren't really what Belcher wants. Especially blue ones that can't even be cast sometimes and cost mana regardless, which could in turn slow your deck down by a turn or two.

[keys]

I would advocate a 0-land Belcher list, eschewing 4 Land Grant and Taiga.

How would you consistently get G for sideboard cards like Xantid with only ESG and Petal? I'm curious what this would look like.

Would Monolith + Belcher + Petal + Chrome + LED + Opal (24 Artifacts) be enough to activate Opal consistently? Monolith/Belcher might not count towards this because you need to burn mana like Petal to get them into play.

You could go Chrome (imprint red) -> Rite -> Monolith + Opal -> Belcher. But if that Chrome is a Petal, it wouldn't work. Although Opal could help with activation of Belcher.

Having Petal/Chrome/SSG as your only reliable initial mana sources seems risky. If you get Petal, Chrome, and Opal together, obviously it's really good.

Something like this?

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Street Wraith

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Tinder Wall
4 Rite of Flame
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Opal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Grim Monolith

@Tenth: The problem I have with Matt Hazard's list is that Street Wraith really shouldn't count as "Business". Don't you have to mull all the time? Keeping a hand with Wraith as your only business seems like a death wish since you only have a 15% chance of drawing into EtW or Belcher after seeing your opening 7...

Also why would you play Richochet Trap? It doesn't counter Mindbreak Trap or Stifle.

[Koby]

I tested out a rough draft of 0-land Belcher yesterday with Mox Opal. Here's what I've tested:

4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 LED
3 Mox Opal
4 Belcher

4 Burning Wish
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Rite of Flames
4 Tinder Wall
4 ESG
4 SSG

3 Goblin Welder
3 Guttural Response
3 Empty the Warrens

This was not enough artifacts to activate Opal consistently. Welder/LED is an interesting take on the low level of business spells, and often acts as counter bait. It also helps to beat blue decks when otherwise you're cold to them. A simple fix is to add 4 Grim Monolith in place of Manamorphose which does nothing aside from fuel BWish/LED strategies. I sampled about 10-15 sample games against random Legacy decks on MTGO, and the draws have been less than stellar.

This list needs more testing.