[Discussion] Combo Summer- Coming Soon?

[Bryant Cook]

When talking with Anwar last night he mentioned it as well, I meant for it to be on "Ritual" based combo. Maybe I should've been more descriptive, although, with Solidarity losing numbers at the moment I don't know how much it would effect "Combo Summer".

[Machinus]

The combo surge is long overdue. I have been expecting it to happen "very soon" for years now. If it does finally occur it will be a great driving force for the diversity of the format. Combo and Control together represent half of all deck archetypes but their tournament numbers are far below 50%. If/when deckbuilders take metagaming seriously and play fast combo decks, this is going to change, and there will be an indefinite period of new development where the power is shifted from the current definition decks.

[Tacosnape]

The main problem I have with this is look at the three combo decks you listed, each of of them is balls slow and loses to a turn 2 Meddling Mage.

None of these decks loses to a turn 2 Meddling Mage. All are fully capable of removing the Mage from the board. GK Salvagers is also capable of knocking the Mage out of your hand. Solidarity is also capable of countering the Mage. Of this group, Solidarity has the hardest time dealing with mage. I don't fear Mage with GK Salvagers, and while I don't have a lot of experience playing Iggy Pop, I've lost to it after resolving a mage plenty of times. GK Salvagers and Iggy Pop are on occasion also capable of going off before the Mage hits.

I've won tournaments with two of them in fields chock full of Meddling Mages and combo hate, and I've played against the third in semifinals twice. None of the decks are invalid and all are capable of thriving.

Combo isn't saying dedicate 15 card sideboards for us, it's simply saying don't be afraid to adapt and make change. Pyroclasm and Enginneered Explosives are both great answers that work against multiple other decks in the format such as Goblins, Threshold, Zoo decks and many others.

They're an answer to Empty the Warrens only. They do absolutely nothing against any other combo deck or combo piece in the entire format. I've found myself facing 10 Goblins before my first turn with a Force of Will in my opening hand more often than I can count. And even if you run Engineered Explosives, Empty the Warrens is creating a situation where on the draw you can't keep an opening hand that doesn't have Engineered Explosives in it, ever.

Engineered Explosives is well on its way to becoming the next Leyline of the Void.

[barron]

It may be because all I have played in legacy the last year has been either combo, or decks that maindeck chalice of the void, but I don't think combo is out of control. I think it is on the cusp, but not quite there. For example, if there weren't wastelands I think Crimson tide would be the best deck in the format, but it is (ironcally) goblins that is keeping that deck in check. Mage is a hassle to deal with for Tide, and E.truth is instant warrens kill. I do think it is frustrating for decks to lost out to a turn one combo, but in legacy that isn't all that consistent, yet. The only reservation I have (as a solidarity player) is playing against EPIC and staring down that first turn swarm (which seems to happen 900% of the time, yeah, 900%). COTV is a hoser in this format. I just picked up another playset just so I wouldn't have to keep moving mine from one deck to another. They rock against combo, and most aggro/controll decks

[Bryant Cook]

None of these decks loses to a turn 2 Meddling Mage. All are fully capable of removing the Mage from the board. GK Salvagers is also capable of knocking the Mage out of your hand. Solidarity is also capable of countering the Mage. Of this group, Solidarity has the hardest time dealing with mage. I don't fear Mage with GK Salvagers, and while I don't have a lot of experience playing Iggy Pop, I've lost to it after resolving a mage plenty of times. GK Salvagers and Iggy Pop are on occasion also capable of going off before the Mage hits.

You failed to address that each one of the combo decks is so slow that all hate for them comes online at turn 3, a full 2 turns slower than what we are currently at. Yes, each one of those decks lose to a Meddling Mage on turn two. Maybe not in the literal sense, however, casting Meddling Mage on turn two against combo is like casting Time Stretch. Meddling Mage buys aggrocontrol enough time to sculpt thier hands or find the answers that they need before the combo deck can recover. Yes, each of the decks you mentioned have answers but they either have to find thier answers or have to be a a disadvantage for using them. By this I mean that they either have to be down a life and a card or spend valuable resources digging finding one of thier few answers. I honestly don't know why we're discussing Gamekeeper Salvagers, it's more like The Rock with a combo finish than a combo deck. Every deck you mentioned can find its way out of a Meddling Mage but it puts them at a disadvantage, which is why they fell out of the upper tier because they didn't adapt. Much like how aggrocontrol will fall out of the upper tier if it doesn't evolve with the metagame.

I've won tournaments with two of them in fields chock full of Meddling Mages and combo hate, and I've played against the third in semifinals twice. None of the decks are invalid and all are capable of thriving.

Do you mean like how aggro control is capable of thriving in a combo metagame? If aggro control evolves with the metagame it is more than capable of winning tournaments filled with combo.

They're an answer to Empty the Warrens only. They do absolutely nothing against any other combo deck or combo piece in the entire format. I've found myself facing 10 Goblins before my first turn with a Force of Will in my opening hand more often than I can count. And even if you run Engineered Explosives, Empty the Warrens is creating a situation where on the draw you can't keep an opening hand that doesn't have Engineered Explosives in it, ever.

Engineered Explosives is well on its way to becoming the next Leyline of the Void.

Enginneered Explosives is much more than an answer for just Empty the Warrens, it's amazing against Goblins and many other decks with bad curves in the format. With the format becoming faster and faster casting costs will reduce to 0,1,2, and 3. Permanents of these casting costs are very killable by EE. Pyroclasm is narrower than EE, yes, but is still amazing Vs. the best deck in the format. Not knowing what to Force of Will can cause you to lose to 10 Goblins on turn 1, or they can push thier way through. If combo pushes thier way through play better or more fast answers. Is mulliganing a bad hand away too much to ask? You wouldn't keep a 5 land, Brainstorm, and Daze hand against Goblins why would you against combo?

[Tacosnape]

Every deck you mentioned can find its way out of a Meddling Mage but it puts them at a disadvantage, which is why they fell out of the upper tier because they didn't adapt.

So you're saying that Meddling Mage shouldn't be a valid piece of disruption for combo? Ludicrous.

Not knowing what to Force of Will can cause you to lose to 10 Goblins on turn 1, or they can push thier way through.

Not knowing what to Force has nothing to do with it. I challenge you to beat this hand with a Force of Will:

Taiga, Elvish Spirit Guide, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Tinder Wall, Lotus Petal, Empty the Warrens.

There's a hundred variants of it I could easily list off. The simple reality is that you're facing 10 Goblins on turn one. 12 if you attempt to Force.

GG.

You could have a godlike anti-combo hand with UGW Threshold, say, Tropical Island, Flooded Strand, Force of Will, Stifle, Pithing Needle, Brainstorm, Meddling Mage. And if Belcher is going first, that hand loses unless your Brainstorm hits Engineered Explosives. What you're saying is that, much like how many decks were forced to mulligan for Leyline to beat Flash, we now should have to auto-mulligan for Engineered Explosives / Pyroclasm to beat Empty The Warrens?

[Bryant Cook]

So you're saying that Meddling Mage shouldn't be a valid piece of disruption for combo? Ludicrous.

What I'm saying is its a fine disruption piece, one of the better ones, but it shouldn't buy aggro control a Time Stretch for UW. Mage paired with other cards is good enough to stop combo but Meddling Mage alone shouldn't say "Iggy Pop can't win." Meddling Mage paired with Stifle is very hard for TES/CRET Belcher and many others to stop. Maybe instead of investing two mana in that Meddling Mage they should've waited to keep Stifle mana open. Almost every one of the combo decks mentioned gets raped by Stifle. TES is one of the very few to be able to deal with Stifle consistantly game one due to Xantid Swarm and Orim's Chant, Belcher can deal with Stifle postboard due to 5 REB/Blasts.

Not knowing what to Force has nothing to do with it. I challenge you to beat this hand with a Force of Will:

Taiga, Elvish Spirit Guide, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Tinder Wall, Lotus Petal, Empty the Warrens.

There's a hundred variants of it I could easily list off. The simple reality is that you're facing 10 Goblins on turn one. 12 if you attempt to Force.

GG.

Congrats you created an invisible hand against Force of Will, but that whole hand loses to 3 cards and two of which are lands. Island, Fetchland, and EE. A mulligan to three in theory can turn an opponents whole 7 card hand into a mindtwist leaving them with a Tiaga. Both sides of the arguement are valid, I'm not argueing that hand wasn't broken.

You could have a godlike anti-combo hand with UGW Threshold, say, Tropical Island, Flooded Strand, Force of Will, Stifle, Pithing Needle, Brainstorm, Meddling Mage. And if Belcher is going first, that hand loses unless your Brainstorm hits Engineered Explosives. What you're saying is that, much like how many decks were forced to mulligan for Leyline to beat Flash, we now should have to auto-mulligan for Engineered Explosives / Pyroclasm to beat Empty The Warrens?

If your opponent gets the nuts I guess you lose but that is apart of the game. If you can't accept that your opponent is either lucky enough or out played you, you probably shouldn't be playing. People didn't complain when Solidarity stole the stack and made everything you did futile, people sucked it up and played faster decks with faster answers.

[Tacosnape]

If your opponent gets the nuts I guess you lose but that is apart of the game. If you can't accept that your opponent is either lucky enough or out played you, you probably shouldn't be playing. People didn't complain when Solidarity stole the stack and made everything you did futile, people sucked it up and played faster decks with faster answers.

By this logic, we should never have banned Flash.

I can accept being outplayed. In fact, I love being outplayed, because I learn something. I can accept occasional ridiculous luck, too, because as you said, it's part of the game. And it happens to me as often as anyone else.

Yet at some point there has to be a line between what players should be forced to adapt to and what distorts the format and makes it unfun. Flash clearly crosses that line, Goblin Lackey doesn't. The line exists somewhere in between, as does Empty the Warrens, which makes it a highly arguable point as to which side of the line it sits on.

I personally find the line to be drawn here:

I believe I should be able to, on a fairly consistent basis, get one land down on the draw before losing or facing an nearly unrecoverable game state. By nearly unrecoverable, I mean you lose unless you have a specific card designed to stop this exact situation. I believe there are enough 1CC spells to make an acceptable defense against anything, but definitely not enough 0CC spells. On the draw, Empty the Warrens can put you in an unrecoverable game state before your first turn. Goblin Lackey takes until before your second turn, as he actually has to hit you.

I don't enjoy magic if I can't get at least one land out on a consistent basis, and I'm not the only one who feels this way. If I was, Flash wouldn't have gotten banned. Sure, you can aggressively mulligan for Engineered Explosives, but what about in a real tournament where you don't know what you're facing? Do you automatically throw every hand without an Explosives back if you lose the die roll for fear of facing Belcher? Of course not. You can't. But you can't rely on 1CC spells to save you. And I feel like when you can't rely on 1CC spells to save you, the format's too fast and not a whole lot of fun.

Therefore I think Empty the Warrens crosses the line.

[Bryant Cook]

By this logic, we should never have banned Flash.

I can accept being outplayed. In fact, I love being outplayed, because I learn something. I can accept occasional ridiculous luck, too, because as you said, it's part of the game. And it happens to me as often as anyone else.

Theres a difference between Flash and Empty the Warrens based decks, the difference being that Flash was a two card combo that you could effectively protect with the rest of your deck. Empty the Warrens is a card that needs your whole deck to be built around it in order for it to be good. When building your whole deck around a card it leaves very little room for answers such as Chain of Vapor/Force of Will. Flash also consistantly killed on turn two, where as Empty the Warrens based decks don't actually kill until turn three which is when Enginneered Plague comes online. Comboing out on turn 1 and killing on turn one are two different things and I think your perspective on this is a little blurred.

Yet at some point there has to be a line between what players should be forced to adapt to and what distorts the format and makes it unfun. Flash clearly crosses that line, Goblin Lackey doesn't. The line exists somewhere in between, as does Empty the Warrens, which makes it a highly arguable point as to which side of the line it sits on.

I personally find the line to be drawn here:

I believe I should be able to, on a fairly consistent basis, get one land down on the draw before losing or facing an nearly unrecoverable game state. By nearly unrecoverable, I mean you lose unless you have a specific card designed to stop this exact situation. I believe there are enough 1CC spells to make an acceptable defense against anything, but definitely not enough 0CC spells. On the draw, Empty the Warrens can put you in an unrecoverable game state before your first turn. Goblin Lackey takes until before your second turn, as he actually has to hit you.

This "line" that you created allows a 1/1 to hit you on the second turn and theoretically drop a hand but doesn't allow 6-12 1/1's to hit you on the second turn. Empty the Warrens rarely has an opponent dead before they hit two land. You can stop Goblin Lackey with spot removal, yes? Why not change your spot removal spots to mass removal and deal with all the little green men? It seems like you are unwilling to change the way you play or atleast your perspective on the situation.

I don't enjoy magic if I can't get at least one land out on a consistent basis, and I'm not the only one who feels this way. If I was, Flash wouldn't have gotten banned. Sure, you can aggressively mulligan for Engineered Explosives, but what about in a real tournament where you don't know what you're facing? Do you automatically throw every hand without an Explosives back if you lose the die roll for fear of facing Belcher? Of course not. You can't. But you can't rely on 1CC spells to save you. And I feel like when you can't rely on 1CC spells to save you, the format's too fast and not a whole lot of fun.

But you can have a land out on a consistent basis, hell, Empty the Warrens doesn't even kill until you have two lands out. If you're not playing a deck that can't disrupt an opponent in this metagame, you probably shouldn't be playing it. Your opponent doesn't even have to be playing combo, a Duress, Cabal Therapy, Hymn to Tourach, Stifle, Pyroclasm, Enginneered Explosives, Enginneered Plague, Wrath of God/Damnation (If they Warrens on turn two), Echoing Truth, Echoing Decay, Rain of Blades, Tremor, Infest, Nausea, Cave-In, Ghostly Prison/Propaganda, Ensaring Bridge, Umezawa's Jitte, Savage Twister, Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm, Hail Storm, Orim's Chant/Abeyance and many other cards are all playable and can be good against Empty the Warrens and other decks of different magnitudes.

You just have to learn to accept change and travel with it.

[Ewokslayer]

By this logic, we should never have banned Flash.

I can accept being outplayed. In fact, I love being outplayed, because I learn something. I can accept occasional ridiculous luck, too, because as you said, it's part of the game. And it happens to me as often as anyone else.

Yet at some point there has to be a line between what players should be forced to adapt to and what distorts the format and makes it unfun. Flash clearly crosses that line, Goblin Lackey doesn't. The line exists somewhere in between, as does Empty the Warrens, which makes it a highly arguable point as to which side of the line it sits on.

I personally find the line to be drawn here:

I believe I should be able to, on a fairly consistent basis, get one land down on the draw before losing or facing an nearly unrecoverable game state. By nearly unrecoverable, I mean you lose unless you have a specific card designed to stop this exact situation. I believe there are enough 1CC spells to make an acceptable defense against anything, but definitely not enough 0CC spells. On the draw, Empty the Warrens can put you in an unrecoverable game state before your first turn. Goblin Lackey takes until before your second turn, as he actually has to hit you.

I don't enjoy magic if I can't get at least one land out on a consistent basis, and I'm not the only one who feels this way. If I was, Flash wouldn't have gotten banned. Sure, you can aggressively mulligan for Engineered Explosives, but what about in a real tournament where you don't know what you're facing? Do you automatically throw every hand without an Explosives back if you lose the die roll for fear of facing Belcher? Of course not. You can't. But you can't rely on 1CC spells to save you. And I feel like when you can't rely on 1CC spells to save you, the format's too fast and not a whole lot of fun.

Therefore I think Empty the Warrens crosses the line.

Sometimes you are just going to lose to combo. Sometimes you are just going to lose to Goblins.
It happens.
It doesn't mean that it is broken.
I lost to Dragonstorm in Standard in his second turn after I just got to go Land, Elf, Go.
Does that make Dragonstorm too powerful?
No, because it won't constantly do that.
Belcher in Legacy won't constantly get a Force of Will proof hand.

[FoolofaTook]

no one likes to be playing the 'draw go game', whether it be the combo deck that just fizzled or the control deck that forced them to 'fizzle'.

I hate combo with a passion because it goes against all of my aggro/control instincts. I love it when I get into draw-go with a combo deck because 9 times out of 10 I'm going to draw a win before them at that point. It's just really hard to get there when they are going off turn 1 to 3 as often as they are.

[BreathWeapon]

You can't just compare combo decks to one another and use those comparisons as a basis for an argument, because combo is an analogous term used to describe a set of decks that use the interaction of multiple cards to either end the game or create a dominant board position, and while their objectives are the same, their mechanics are not. High Tide, Gamekeeper/Salvagers, IGGY POP, TES, Belcher and Flash are all separate entities, and just because one combo deck was bad for the format doesn't mean that another combo deck or all combo decks are bad for the format.

If combo does become more popular, it's just going to force Suicide, Threshold, Aggro-Prison or Prison to take on a more prolific position in the metagame and turn Goblins into a metagame deck. People are over exaggerating just how fast and consistent combo decks are in this format, because with the exception of Belcher, the worst combo can do is redefine the fundamental turn to 3, and Belcher is an "All-In deck" that is either winning or losing on the first turn, which is just as much of a detriment to it as it is an advantage for it.

Flash was a problem because Flash was a one card win condition with the most efficient tutors and counters the game had ever seen, it DESTROYED aggro-control, and the only way to really contain it was to MD or SB Leyline of the Void. The moment combo starts to look like combo-control and has a fundamental turn of two is when you should start panicking, but short of that, if combo as we understand it become a more prolific metagame force that's an acceptable result of the card pool. I mean for fuck's sake they unbanned LED, so they had to know combo would be a serious factor eventually.

[Muradin]

But to make this happen the combo player must be on the play and has to have a quite good hand providing him the ability to go for 10+ tokens first turn. Most hands with that ability will become significantly worse facing down force of will. TES and similar combo decks are still much more fragile than flash and can in no way be compared to it in resilance.

[Tacosnape]

But you can have a land out on a consistent basis, hell, Empty the Warrens doesn't even kill until you have two lands out. If you're not playing a deck that can't disrupt an opponent in this metagame, you probably shouldn't be playing it. Your opponent doesn't even have to be playing combo, a Duress, Cabal Therapy, Hymn to Tourach, Stifle, Pyroclasm, Enginneered Explosives, Engineered Plague, Wrath of God/Damnation (If they Warrens on turn two), Echoing Truth, Echoing Decay, Rain of Blades, Tremor, Infest, Nausea, Cave-In, Ghostly Prison/Propaganda, Ensaring Bridge, Umezawa's Jitte, Savage Twister, Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm, Hail Storm, Orim's Chant/Abeyance and many other cards are all playable and can be good against Empty the Warrens and other decks of different magnitudes.

Bold: Too slow to stop Empty the Warrens when it goes off turn one before you get a move without acceleration.
Underline: Narrow janky crap.

This leaves us with Pyroclasm, Engineered Explosives, Echoing Truth, Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, and Glacial Chasm. I'll add Crime//Punishment to this list, as it does the job too.

Tabernacle and Glacial Chasm are narrow and can only be supported effectively in a few decks. Pyroclasm can only be run in Red, and the premier Red deck in the format can't afford to run it (Though it can run Brightstone Ritual.) It's solid in secondary red decks, though. Echoing Truth is rarely run outside of Blue combo, just because bouncing isn't considered to be a viable long-term solution. Crime//Punishment requires you be running Black and Green to pull off.

This leaves Engineered Explosives as being unquestionably the best answer to Empty the Warrens, and in my opinion the only one that fits into over half the decks in Legacy.

You just have to learn to accept change and travel with it.

On the contrary, I'm entitled to make my points and arguments all I want and I don't have to learn to accept it at all. Time will prove Empty the Warrens to be the format-distorting card it is (It's already taken 1st place at multiple decent-sized tournaments), and I'll continue to be the loudest voice against it remaining in the format.

[emidln]

Bold: Too slow to stop Empty the Warrens when it goes off turn one before you get a move without acceleration.
Underline: Narrow janky crap

These are only too slow if you play janky or improperly designed decks.

Engineered Plague - Playable from turn 1 on in all decks that run it except builds of Landstill and Fish (decks that are generally slow control decks or decks that provide other answers)

Wrath of God/Damnation - Playable from turns 2-3 off of Moxen (coincidentally, what many control decks play, or Dark Ritual in the case of Damnation).

Infest - Playable from turn 1

Ghostly Prison/Propaganda - Playable from turn 1 in Stax, which is the only control deck that runs it.

Ensnaring Bridge - Playable from turn 1 in Stax, the only deck that can run it, and effective between turns 2-4 depending on the number of mulligans and the rest of the hand. Not a consistent answer in most decks. The only deck to play this card runs 4 Rolling Earthquake main and up to 3 Pyroclasm, both easy answers to ETW.

You left out an absolute meta bomb that can come online as early as turn 2 against later than turn 1 ETW: Aether Flash. In addition to completely nullifying ETW, it hoses Goblins, a good part of Fish as a singleton, a good part of deadguy, and with two destroys most creatures in the format preemptively.

[BreathWeapon]

Empty the Warrens is no more format distorting than Goblin Lackey is, one just advocates mass removal while the other advocates spot removal, neither of which are too narrow to include in a MD any way.

You can also add Sandstorm to that list as anti Empty the Warrens and Goblin Lackey removal.

[emidln]

Empty the Warrens is no more format distorting than Goblin Lackey is, one just advocates mass removal while the other advocates spot removal, neither of which are too narrow to include in a MD any way.

You can also add Sandstorm to that list as anti Empty the Warrens and Goblin Lackey removal.

Actually both advocate cheap mass removal. It doesn't matter if lackey hits you if you can wipe away whatever he drops turn 2. Furthermore, if you can prevent anything lackey drops from mattering (say with Aether Flash) you can stop both ETW and Lackey.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

You can also add Sandstorm to that list as anti Empty the Warrens and Goblin Lackey removal.

Now there's an interesting green option I'd forgotten about. Very interesting...

[APriestOfGix]

Combo wouln't become a huge problem simply because cause at large event's ether 1) it's too expensive to build, 2) too hard to play all day, or 3) you have a deck you like to play more.

it's pretty simple, TES is way powerful, but it still only takes 1 top 8 and the other 6 slots are aggro/control.

[BreathWeapon]

Actually both advocate cheap mass removal. It doesn't matter if lackey hits you if you can wipe away whatever he drops turn 2. Furthermore, if you can prevent anything lackey drops from mattering (say with Aether Flash) you can stop both ETW and Lackey.

Sometimes just connecting once and resoling Goblin Ringleader is good enough to make me want to use spot removal in place of mass removal to prevent Goblins from generating the card advantage, but I agree that mass removal in and of itself is too good to dismiss over spot removal and that Engineered Explosives in particular is amazing right now.

Sandstorm is a super solid go between card tho' in terms of preventing a Goblin Lackey from connecting and still serving as mass removal. I really liked that card in 3cSlide when I replaced Swords to Plowshares for it, and it probably deserves to see more play than it does.