[Deck] Armageddon Stax

[GoldenCid]

I tried 4 stax before and I wasn't too happy since I don't need it all the time. I found 4 armageddon effects too little and 6 too much so 5 is just about right for me since its a way for stalling and locking them down. I only need stax when I am about to lock them down just like I did a few mins ago on MWS :) So far I am liking the new addition, karakas. It doesn't screw up the number of white mana producing lands and now I have more answers to things I don't like such as gaddock, baneslayer or other legendary creatures :) I have 3 armageddons and 2 ravages atm.

I think that it's too risky put all the hopeness in the first game expecting not to have enought time for the second game and win 1-0. I played WW stax with 4 magus + 1 tabernacle and no angels and i found the deck too slow and always in the edge of danger :P. The problem is that wit out a solid draw engine (2 canopies is too poor) locking your opponent is as probable as not. Seriously, i like the "just magus" version but i didn't get good results (in addition i was running 4 smokestack + 4 trini). With angels (2 baneslayers) although i can't lock up my oppnent as fast i can swim him with angels with soft lock.

[K1LO]

Excellent tech with the Karakas, time to grab one before the price suddenly jumps to $70. Out of curiosity, has it ever mattered that you're splitting your basics with Snow-Covered basics? They're already immune to Echoing Truth, Pithing Needle, Cabal Therapy, Meddling Mage, and Extirpate. The only thing I can think of that would affect them is Wake of Destruction, and I don't think that's ever seen play in legacy.

Haha, Karakas will sell for at least 120 USD^^. Seriously, that´s no special tech at all, but just an obvious solution against Iona, Shield of Emeria when playing a white-dependant deck that can play it without a huge drawback, as I´ve even seen Enchantress-decks with it. But, I´ve played Karakas before Iona had its big appearence, only because of Gaddock Teeg. The split between basics and Snow-Covered basics is just a personal preference as I like to split cards, although this land-split doesn´t make any sense. Actually, if you really think about it, playing only Snow-Covered basics would be the best, as there is a small chance your confused opponent puts you on The Mighty Quinn when starting with a Snow-Covered Plains. And if I could afford two more Ravages of War, I´d play them not just to show how big my p... urse is, but as the chance that one day a Meddling Mage names Armageddon is much higher, as nobody expects you to have those Ravages. But, the only split that ever mattered to me is The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Magus of the Tabernacle, as the land is just that much better.


Greetz, K1LO

[Otter]

Haha, Karakas will sell for at least 120 USD^^. Seriously, that´s no special tech at all, but just an obvious solution against Iona, Shield of Emeria when playing a white-dependant deck that can play it without a huge drawback, as I´ve even seen Enchantress-decks with it. But, I´ve played Karakas before Iona had its big appearence, only because of Gaddock Teeg

Give yourself some credit -- not a single one of the 126 Stax lists on deckcheck has a Karakas in it I think that qualifies as some decent tech.

The split between basics and Snow-Covered basics is just a personal preference as I like to split cards. Actually, if you really think about it, playing only Snow-Covered basics would be the best, as there is a small chance your opponent puts you on The Mighty Quinn when starting with a Snow-Covered Plains. And if I could afford two more Ravages of War, I´d play them not just to show how big my p... urse is, but as the chance that one day a Meddling Mage names Armageddon is much higher, as nobody expects you to have those Ravages. But, the only split that ever mattered to me is The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Magus of the Tabernacle, as the land is just that much better.


Greetz, K1LO

Good point about them possibly putting you on Quinn. I'd do it if I wasn't so much in love with my Korean basics. I wish you were wrong about the Tabernacle being better as a land than a creature, because it's going to take me a while to save up for one.

[4zureSky]

I´ve played 4 Armageddons and 1 Ravages of War for some time, but sometimes I had several copies stucking in my hand and as they don´t feed Smokestack, switched back to 4 Armageddon-effects as having one of them was more than enough. But this number may be more preference than relevant, although I still think that the 4th Smokestack should be in there. Btw., Baneslayer Angel is (unfortunately!) NOT legendary^^.


Greetz, K1LO

Wow.. Baneslayer really isn't a legendary! I need to pay attention to the details more haha. But returning Iona back to their hands is a great idea that you said later! I've had problems with Iona in reanimator decks and I heard ichorid is starting to play with Iona :(

I just arrive from a 75 people tournament with 4-2-1 finishing in the 14th position playing 3 Suppresion field MD and I have to say that they are th MVP of the deck. You can almost hardlock the opponent with a suppresion and a crucible/wasteland. I'm just considering of quitting all the smokestacks so it's too much slow and always the card I quit in 2nd and 3rd games.

A little summary of the matches:

1st round canadian: I win the first match thanks to chalice (opponent conceded fast) losed the second game mulliganing to 5, and in the third I locked him but I have to almost draw all the deck with canopy to find something to kill him, finally I win almost at time.
2nd round ant: I lose first match, won the second thanks to sphere of resistance and aura of silence, in third game we tie due to time.
3rd round bant: I win first round thanks to chalice @1 and some business (tabernacle and geddon), losed the second with mulligan @5 XD. We couldn't finish the third game.
4th round goblins: 2-0 Easy (I draw all the business in the world, prison, tabernacle, suppresion, crucible, geddon, and sphere of law in second game XD)
5th round Survival: I win easy the first match, but losed 2nd and 3rd due to mulligans (no business with 7 cards, no lands drawing 6 and absolutely nothing with in 5)
6th round Survival?: I win 2-0 easy. I suppose that the deck was survival because I see qasali, flametongue and magus of the moon (that I removed with oblivion ring).
7th round Zoo: I losed the first game because only see oblivion rings and any business. I winned easy the second and third match hardlocking him with suppresions (fetchlands) and crucible/wasteland. In the second match I started first turn playing suppresion with mox, opponent readed the card and almost conceded in this moment, he played 2 fetchlands in his first two turns and when he coulds active the first one I have crucible in play and geddon waiting in hand ;-p.

I still need to try the suppression fields in MD, but I never had to the time to test them. Congratulations on the placing. I myself probably wouldn't be able to place that high in a big tournament like that though I never tried going to a tournament yet since I don't know of any near where I live :(

Give yourself some credit -- not a single one of the 126 Stax lists on deckcheck has a Karakas in it I think that qualifies as some decent tech.

Agreed! I went through this whole thread before actually registering and I haven't seen any karakas in any decks till you suggested it :) And I guess I should test 4 stax again so I can see if I like what you guys are playing with. I need to try to see it from a different perspective :P

[red.devil]

I tested Suppression Fields some months ago. I liked them a lot but, due to my meta (Dragon stompy, tribal and other casual decks), I cut them.

Looking at the current meta, maybe it's time to bring them back to MD. SupFields slow down opponent's ability to fetch for basic lands, giving us good targets for our wastelands. Moreover they shut down SDT, which is problem for us (it allows the opponent to dig looking for responses). Another good reason to play SupFields is the return of the SotF deck, not mentioning the number of Qasali in the current meta.

Another card I tested with good results is the Aven Mindcensor. It's wonderful played against ANT in response to mystical tutor/fetchland, and vs NO bant and survival. Usually they switch creature removal for artifact/enchantment hate, so the Aven is a good card to stop their fetch and tutor effects.
Even against enchantress is good, because it stops Sterling Grove tutoring for Aura of Silence, Karmic, etc.

[Al-ucard]

The fact I like most SF is because all of us know the problem this deck have with the topdecks. So if you could play SF and gain 3-4 turns because opponent will be playing 2 for each fechland to get the lands he need, you have more time and will be drawing more answers and more stuff thanks to this turns. And meanwhile you will be playing all the stuff you draw, on contrary that the opponent.

This is why I decided to quit them for trinispheres. SF, instead sphere doesn't prevent that opponent take 3 lands and plays all the cards he need, yes more slowly, but he could play them. So in my opinion SF is more restrictive and a better hardlock than trinisphere.

With SF you could start playing it at first turn and automatically win because opponent have only fetchlands in hand.

Another point is that due to qasali, ZOO decks are more predominant. So with suppresion they have to choose in playing first and hope we don't remove him with oblivion or pay 3wG to destroy something in the same turn. In yesterday tournament I hardlocked a Zoo deck with suppresion and crucible+wasteland.

This is the list I played:

25 Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Mishra's factory
1 Kor haven
3 Flagstones of trokair
4 Wasteland
6 Plains

5 Creatures
2 Baneslayer Angel
3 Magus of the tabernacle

30 Others
4 Chalice of the void
4 Crucible of worlds
4 Mox diamond
3 Smokestack
3 Suppresion Field
4 Armageddon
4 Ghostly prison
4 Oblivion ring

15 Sideboard
4 Trinisphere
3 Aura of silence
3 Sphere of law
2 Tormod's crypt
2 Sphere of resistance
1 Magus of the tabernacle

If I could afford 1 ravage of war and 1 more baneslayer angel I surely will quit all the stacks and play with 3 angels and 5 geddon effects.

[Steveman]

Alucard, how's Baneslayer working for you? If I were to make any changes to your deck to fit Trinispheres, I would cut 2 Baneslayer and 1 O-Ring, but that's just me.

[Al-ucard]

As I mentioned early, trinisphere is not needed since fields are much more restrictive nearly always.

About Baneslayer, now I'm looking for the third one because sometimes its difficult to draw him and matches went too long without him XD. I expect this answer your question heheh.

If I could, I will play with 3 fields, 3 Baneslayer, 4 Tabernacle, 5 geddon effects and 0 Stax.

[4zureSky]

I wish I can cut something like stax or trinisphere that easily, but in my meta its full of thresh and countertop along with zoo. I have it tough haha. Trinisphere is always something I like to see and a deck without stax isn't stax anymore Though stax can be annoying to draw at times I still love blowing up the lands then playing stax afterward. The opponents almost always concede after I do that and it feels awesome Btw how is sphere of resistance working for you guys? I always wanted to try it but never had the time. My sb is full of chokes and grips so my sb is tight as it is

[Steveman]

Most people dislike Sphere of Resistance for the fact that it is completely symmetrical unlike Trinisphere, which really only affects your Mox Diamonds and CotVs. However, some people have Sphere of Resistance in the sideboard for the combo matchup.

I would never cut Smokestack from the deck. Sure, it's not exactly the most reliable card and it takes a turn just for your opponent to sacrifice their most useless permanent, but without it, we lose the hardlock. But then again, Smokestack is the only card that eats everything (forever!), so cutting Smokestack would mean losing the "inevitability / final nail in the coffin" factor. I would just never play 4, I'm pretty sure that 3 is the standard for most people, not to mention that's the number you usually see in the Stax decks that do well in big tournaments.

[Al-ucard]

I used Stax in 0 of the 7 matches I play yesterday and always was the card I put in side. Maybe if people starts to play suppresion field probably will see that they could quit Stax or Trinisphere...

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Could Journey to nowhere find a home into this deck? Its a Chalice proof Swords.
Play it in the early game to bye some time later sac it to Smokestack. Should be good!?

It just gives the deck some removal!

[4zureSky]

O.Ring > Journey to Nowhere. And the fact that its converted mana cost is 2 gets in the way with chalice of the void because I usually put chalice at 2 for decks like dead ale guy or something else. I wouldn't suggest it, but you can try it out I guess.

[Sims]

I used Stax in 0 of the 7 matches I play yesterday and always was the card I put in side. Maybe if people starts to play suppresion field probably will see that they could quit Stax or Trinisphere...

I'm getting the impression that you are playing this deck much differently than I. I could almost see putting SF in the main, depending on the metagame. I wouldn't necessarily say over Trini though. However, you seem to be playing the deck more like a Angel Stompy deck- throwing down an early disruption piece (SF, chalice, Prison) and trying to find your fat flier to steal the game while your opponent is reeling, with the Geddon -> Tabby effect to wrath away your opponents creatures to buy you time if Baneslayer gets removed. This is definitely an Angel Stompy playstyle, and not Stax.

The way i play this deck, there is no way i'd ever cut Smokestack or 3-Sphere. They're too good at what they do. I'm looking to actually lock my opponent, and then beat in with Factories, as opposed to just disrupting and hoping baneslayer will take it down. I'd rather have the innevitability over the speed.

Perhaps taking a look into Angel Stompy and trying to revive that archtype of White Chalice Aggro is the way you should be going? Try to geta new spin on the disruption followed by huge angel beats deck.

[Q-Ball]

Really I haven't found removal to be a big problem. Having an opening hand with Chalice or Trini seems enough to buy time to lock out.
Recurring Mishra's to block isn't so bad either. Crucible and Wasteland + some speed can also be an amazing opener.
I see many people go to get the hardlock and then mishra's are enough.

Personally I find a softlock is normally enough with my bigger beaters.
Juggernaut or Lodestone comes down they quickly start hurying for removal, and with a chalice at 1 and a trini normally they can't get rid of them.

They'res very few decks a real hardlock is needed.

And in the mirror having bigger 4cmc beaters can help.

[GoldenCid]

since i began to play this deck i run 3-4 smokestack and i always felt unconfortable with it. The fact is that we need strong removal beyond creatures. I play with 4 magus and a tabernacle that should be enoguh!!! Althought i feel unconfortable with it, i feel unsafe with out it :(

[Steveman]

So here's my current list that I've been testing with lately, yesterday I placed 2nd in a 5 round single elimination tournament on Magic-League

26 LAND
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Flagstones of Trokair
11 Plains
3 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland

34 SPELLS
3 Smokestack
4 Moat
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Mox Diamond
3 Humility
2 Ravages of War
1 Armageddon
3 Oblivion Ring

15 SIDEBOARD
1 Ravages of War
2 Armageddon
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Karmic Justice
4 Wrath of God

Yes, this is actually "Dutch Stax" except I don't have a crappy sideboard and I don't play man-lands. However, seeing how it has Armageddon, I figued it'd still be appropriate for me to post here, although if any mod has a problem with that, I'll gladly revive the Dutch Stax thread.

For the past few years, I've been playing a list similar to this, but I had Wrath of God in the maindeck in lieu of Humility. However, with Smokestack / Oblivion Ring also in the maindeck, there are many times where I felt Wrath of God was just a really expensive Terror. Also, the fact that it wasn't a permanent or a lock piece made me reconsider its spot in the maindeck. I decided to test out Humility in the maindeck and decided that I liked it a lot more than Wrath of God for game 1 because it actually functions as a lock piece in game 1 where there really isn't any artifact / enchantment hate. However, I feel that Wrath of God is still a good card in the deck, but I feel that it's better in the board because I don't need it in every single matchup.

So let's start off this mini primer with an FAQ

1.) Why no man-lands?
- There are 10 cards in the maindeck that require WW in their mana cost, so I want the most stable manabase as possible, hence the 11 Plains. Also, as good as Mishra's Factories are under Humility, they're useless under Moat. And quite frankly, I hate chump blocking and feel that not getting Wastelanded > chump blocking the inevitable.

2.) Why only 3 Trinisphere in the maindeck?
- I had 4, but I wanted to make room for the 3rd O-Ring. Also, I saw how the winning list in whatever that 5K was playing 3 Trinispheres, so I might as well go with what works.

3.) Why only Elspeth as the kill condition?
- Elspeth, in my opinion, is the best kill condition possible for any Stax list that featurues Moat. By itself, it functions as a lock piece, is extremely hard to remove, feeds Smokestack, and flies over Moat / Humility. My favorite thing about Elspeth is that it's similar to an artifact / enchantment, meaning they're not vulnerable to everything like creatures are.

To be cont...

[Q-Ball]

Elspeth I can agree to.
A free token generator? Feed smokestack much?
Elspeth allows you to run Stax at 2 or EVEN 3 in later game (when you have double crucible out or double trini or double whatever!) And then just have it consume itself if need be.

And should she go Hadoken, then armageddon becomes much more insane no?

I will make room for her when I can get 3.

To improve or offer mainly an alternative.
Dropping two plains for two Rifstone Portal's allows incredible access to a diverse sideboard.
From choke, to grips. Obviously Grips are less useful, however, Choke is an end all be all against a deck that has issues with Draw/Go and monster-counter decks since we are so opening hand dependent.

[4zureSky]

I actually tried Elspeth before and I didn't like it as much as I thought. It costs quite a lot of mana when I can play two things instead. I am not saying Elspeth is bad, but it doesn't fit my playing style. I like to put pieces slowly then when my opponent is most unaware I bring in the bomb and kill my opponent from there. I think Dutch Stax is more of a bomb for every card sort of like a short term period kind of feeling if you know what I mean. After trying Angel Stax, Dutch stax and many variants I like the stax with knights the most. Traditional list with a 61st card WoG.

[K1LO]

Could Journey to nowhere find a home into this deck? Its a Chalice proof Swords.
Play it in the early game to bye some time later sac it to Smokestack. Should be good!?

It just gives the deck some removal!

I´m plaing one Journey (over the 3rd Wrath-effect) in the sideboard at the moment, along with the 4th Ring, as it is e.g. one more answer to Gaddock, an early Pridemage or Predator and takes care of Titania or Archdruid against Elves. I think the speed makes it a reasonable choice, although it struggles with Chalice at two. Crip Swap would also be an option, but Journey is "probably" still better.


Greetz, K1LO

P.S.: From now there is a Stax-deck playing Karakas^^ on DeckCheck, as I´ve loaned it to a friend of mine who unfortunately got paired against Imperial Painter in the last round, but could convince his opponent to ID.