[Deck] Armageddon Stax

[ImAChampion]

Has anyone considered adding Sensei's Top to their list?

Ray has found a lot of success with it in his T1 Staxless stax list.

Same as with Uba Stax, the prison archetype really shines when it has any form of draw, so that it can find the lock pieces it needs.

Fitting in some form of draw is what will help push this deck up a notch.

What would you suggest removing in favor of the Top? Basically...what do you think the top is better/more important than in the deck?

[ClearSkies]

My favorite plays are:

Against Aggro
Turn 1: Mox Diamond + Ancient Tomb + Trinisphere
Turn 2: Tabernacle + Ghostly Prison

Against Everything else
Turn 1; Mox Diamond + Ancient Tomb + Trinisphere
Turn 2: Wasteland + Crucible of Worlds

Hold on a second...
Why not 1st Turn: Trinisphere
2nd Turn: Smokestack
3rd Turn: Crucible of the Worlds

That is basically a complete lock for practically all the decks except the ones that run Spirit Guides (maybe)

This deck is awesome. I am undecided whether I like Moat or Smokestacks. I have never really had a need for Moat yet. Usually I can lock someone out with multiple Ghostly Prisons and taxing them with Tabernacle or Magus. Tangle Wire would probably be more effective in this deck than Moat or Smokestacks in the current environment...thoughts? If you are on the play with a turn 1 Trinisphere and you drop Tangle Wire on turn 3 you pretty much get 5 turns of an empty board from your opponent.

Yea, but as good as 1st Trinisphere sounds, it isn't something the deck can easily rely on. Tangle Wire can be good, and can be bad depending on situations though.

[Gambit]

I would love to have SDT in the list; however, while chalice is in here I don't think it's a reality, as often you are playing turn 1 chalice at 1. I have had pithing needles that I sided in sit dead in my hand because of this and don't think the dis-synergy maindeck is worthwhile. So, I guess the question is: does this deck need chalice, my answer is yup. This is one of the appeals of a green splash, sylvan library, but then your mana can turn to shit.

[ImAChampion]

Hold on a second...
Why not 1st Turn: Trinisphere
2nd Turn: Smokestack
3rd Turn: Crucible of the Worlds

That is basically a complete lock for practically all the decks except the ones that run Spirit Guides (maybe)

Because the deck I am playing doesn't run Smokestacks. I put together the list from worlds to test it out. I am still rather new to this deck style.

Yea, but as good as 1st Trinisphere sounds, it isn't something the deck can easily rely on. Tangle Wire can be good, and can be bad depending on situations though.

Makes sense.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

If you really want more card draw, you could use Horizon Canopy as a recurring cantrip that also opens up green. Green brings Sylvan Library for more card selection, Tarmogoyf for winning, and sideboard Choke for the Landstill matchup.

[kabal]

What are the optimal Stax board look like when you want to drop Smokestacks?

What are the hands that are not necessarily optimal, but could be workable?

What is the reason for not using Tanglewire? Is there just not a enough room?

What are the sideboarding strategies?

[Whit3 Ghost]

What is the reason for not using Tanglewire? Is there just not a enough room?

Tanglewire is awful, and ends up locking you down more then your opponent.

[Nihil Credo]

What are the optimal Stax board look like when you want to drop Smokestacks?

Make sure you have something good for the control matchup. Extra Armageddons are nice, and so are Suppression Fields. Of course, you could still SB the Stacks... they're quite nice in the Thresh matchup.

What are the hands that are not necessarily optimal, but could be workable?

Not exactly an answerable question... in general, it's better to have threat-light hands than mana-light ones. Oh, and turn 2 Angel flip is only OK postboard, especially if they didn't see it in game 1.

What is the reason for not using Tanglewire? Is there just not a enough room?

Tanglewire is a triple Fog or so. It's only worth it when you really really need to buy time. With more Tarmogoyfs and less Goblins running amok, I think Oblivion Ring is just a better time-buyer.

What are the sideboarding strategies?

Most of the time some of your disruption will be useless or mediocre (usually Chalice, Ghostly Prison, or Trinisphere). I rarely have trouble figuring what to SB out, but sometimes you have to hope you've got something relevant to SB in. Oblivion Ring is good because it's practically never dead.

[Madmaniac21]

What would you suggest removing in favor of the Top? Basically...what do you think the top is better/more important than in the deck?

I'm trying to figure that out. In my T1 Uba list it ended up taking the place of my 2x metagame slot.

The more I look at the MD list, the more I think that Chalice should possibly be a sideboard card. If the plan (with 4x 3spheres) is to drop one and then nuke lands, countering all spells with CC=0,1, or 2 doesn't really matter if they can't cast anything anyways.

"Tanglewire is awful, and ends up locking you down more then your opponent."

This is simple a misunderstanding of how tangle wire works. It is absolutely amazing if your opponents have to play permanents to win the game - as everyone does in t1.5

"Tanglewire is a triple Fog or so. It's only worth it when you really really need to buy time. With more Tarmogoyfs and less Goblins running amok, I think Oblivion Ring is just a better time-buyer."

While goyf makes Oring better, it makes tanglewire better too. If your opponents' plan is to drop a couple lands and a goyf, then wire is better, because you'll be locking down their lands as well, whereas with goblins they had infy more permanents, making wire worse at stopping the threats you wanted it to.

I'm currently messing around with a list without Smokestack. I might end up putting it in the CANG forum.

[Whit3 Ghost]

"Tanglewire is awful, and ends up locking you down more then your opponent."

This is simple a misunderstanding of how tangle wire works. It is absolutely amazing if your opponents have to play permanents to win the game - as everyone does in t1.5

If a deck can get 3-4 permanents by turn 2, you will most likely be far more hampered by your own Wire then they will. If one of those permanents is a goyf, you will be down 5-10 life behind, someplace you simply don't want to be. If you're metagame is all control, there's better choices then wire anyway.

[f|i[p]]

If a deck can get 3-4 permanents by turn 2, you will most likely be far more hampered by your own Wire then they will. If one of those permanents is a goyf, you will be down 5-10 life behind, someplace you simply don't want to be. If you're metagame is all control, there's better choices then wire anyway.

This is true regarding tangle wire, if they put permanents faster than you do. Tangle wire becomes useless. Also, we never really put as much permanents down as the vintage stax lists, I think thats one of the other reasons tangle wires work for vintage stax. And yes I have played with tangle wires and they are good but not as good as the other pieces, so most of the time I wished they were another card when I saw them in my hand.

As for chalice, I dont think I will ever take it off the main. Chalice at 1 just hurts so many decks. Chalice, and trinispheres I think would be the best 1st or 2nd turn plays.

As for the staxless list, angel is a good beater indeed, but if you really think about it, smokestack has synergy with the whole deck and angel does not.But its really a choice of preference,and your win condition. I still prefer having 2-3 angels and 4 smokestacks main and leave the rest of the angels in my sideboard.


The only problem I see with this deck is draw.And at times synergy issues. This deck relies on synergy too much, lock pieces that wont be able work at its best alone hence it relies on other lock pieces as well. Draw spells or tutors would be great and would be a big help fixing the issues I see in the deck. Thus aggressive mulligan is really important.

[Silverdragon]

Just a quick post to let you guys know. The last monthly Legacy tournament in Speyer was this Saturday and we had 42 players. Of those 42 five played Stax. I finished 10th and my friend Joachim finished 3rd after swiss, losing in the quarterfinals of Top8 against a homebrew Survival variant but winning the loser bracket to end in 5th place.
Again a very short report on my matches (maybe I'm confusing the order of the matches because my notes are on loose pieces of paper this time):
Round 1 against Cephalid Breakfast; lose 0-2 (Game 1 I get beaten by a Tarmogoyf because I decided to play turn 2 Chalice instead of Trinisphere in fear of Daze; Game 2 a timely Disenchant on my lone Ghostly Prison ensures that Stern Proctor plus a Nomads can attack and kill me before I find anything relevant again)
Round 2 against Burn; win 2-0 (Game 1 I get the almost-god draw with 2nd turn Trinisphere, 3rd turn Smokestack, 4th turn Crucible; Game 2 I get a morph when I'm at 4 life with 2 Plains 1 Ancient Tomb in play. He's in topdeck mode, draws Magma Jet and aims it at me, hoping to stop me from unmorphing the Angel. Lucky for me I have the City of Traitors already in hand, unmorph Angel and go up to 6 again. Geddon follows and that's game.)
Round 3 against Ubgr Landstill; lose 0-2 (Words cannot describe the pain I suffered. Game 1 went on for 42 minutes because after some Deed and Armageddon action we were both at 3 lands and I had Wasteland + Crucible. However he also had Loam and so I continually tried to keep him off mana for Deed and he continually used Loam to refill his hand, beating with Factory when he did not need to cast Loam. I also had a Trinisphere so as soon as I draw Armageddon I can play a Tomb or City and get him down to 0 mana and keep him from ever doing anything again thanks to Wasteland, decking him in the end. The bad thing with this plan was that the last 3 Armageddons I had in the deck were actually cards number 1-3 from bottom. In hindsight there was one situation that cost me the game and that was when he had only 2 fetchlands and I decided to waste a fetchland instead of destroying the first fetched dual in response to the second fetch when he'd go to get 3 mana; Game 2 I had Defense Grid and Trinisphere but only a Mox and a City of Traitors. First a Wasteland hit my City and shortly thereafter a Deed nuked my Mox so I conceded.)
Round 4 against Ichorid; win 2-0 (Nothing much to say here. Game 1 Trinisphere + Ghostly Prison stall him enough for an Angel to ride it home; Game 2 I get Trinisphere, Chalice @1 and @2, double Ghostly Prison and Crucible + Wasteland within the first few turns after he has to take a mulligan down to 5. I wait some time for a Magus to show up and after a few swings my opponent asks the judge about the interaction of Ray of Revelation with Chalice and Trinisphere. Turns out he needs to get to 3 mana to flash it back and then it still gets countered by Chalice @2... after the ruling he immediately concedes.)
Round 5 against Affinity; win 2-0 (Game 1 he has a slow start with only Ornithopter and Frogmite in the first few turns. I can morph an Angel on turn 2 or 3 and unmorph her the following turn. A Chalice @2 ensures that there'll be no surprise Shrapnel Blasts or Cranial Platings to kill the lady so we quickly finish game 1; Game 2 my opponent has Seal of Primordium and Engineered Explosives against my lock pieces but a 3rd turn Magus of the Tabernacle slows him down considerably so I find the time to get more mana onto the table and hardcast my Angel who again quickly finishes the game.)
Round 6 against TES; win 2-0 (I get a bit lucky here as my opponent is not too serious anymore [maybe exhausted, frustrated, I don't know] and after winning the die roll decides that he wants to draw first, meaning I get to play first even though I lost the die roll. Game 1 I resolve a turn 2 3Sphere, waste a land and after I unmorph Angel he reaches for his sideboard; Game 2 is more of the same except he uses Shattering Spree to deal with my Chalice @1. However a Trinisphere immediately follows and this time an Aven Mindcensor wraps it up.)
In the end the Breakfast player I faced in round 1 won the whole tournament. I think Top8 decklists and a metagame breakdown will be online soon.
Oh and I was talking to Joachim after the tournament and he said that the most important thing for him during the whole tournament was taking agressive mulligans with the deck so learning how to mulligan with it is certainly a very important part to being successful with it.

[f|i[p]]

@silverdragon

Congrats on the tourney.

At my metagame there is no Cephalid breakfast(at least none yet for the moment). Is our match up that bad?

@Aven Mindcensor

I don't really think the Mindcensor is needed, but Im always open to improvements and innovations from people who get to test the deck more often.

How did aven Mindcensor go for you? Is the mindcensors addition mainly for fetch land and tutor disruption?

[Silverdragon]

Some more details.
My list for the tournament was
4 Armageddon
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Exalted Angel
2 Smokestack
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
8 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

SB
4 Defense Grid
4 Suppression Field
3 Duskrider Peregrine
3 Aven Mindcensor
1 Oblivion Ring

The maindeck Ghost Quarter was nice. I was paired against 5 decks that did not have a single basic land so it worked as an additional Wasteland in many situations. It even helped me win a game against Burn where I used it on my Flagstones to get 2 Plains (so I was able to unmorph Exalted).
The 2/2 split of Smokestacks and Oblivion Rings will most likely stay that way. Smokestack is still awesome in the deck but even with only 2 I generally got it when I needed it.
5 Waste effects plus Crucible helped to keep the board low on permanents even without Smokestack and also helped alleviate the absence of a 5th Armageddon effect.
There were situations when Oblivion Ring was a dead card but in my matches against Cephalid Breakfast and Affinity I was hoping to topdeck some. I still think they are really good against Threshold, Survival and lots of problematic cards like Crucible so I'll keep them in for now.
Tabernacle was a last minute addition because I expected some players to bring Belcher (after its 8-0 performance at Stuttgart) and without Pithing Needle in my deck I at least wanted additional ways to deal with EtW Tokens.
The sideboard was experimental. I was looking for unconventional ways to beat Landstill and Survival (when I explained my choices I always said "Deed is my worst matchup"). Duskrider Peregrine again shines as he can't be hit with Shriekmaw, flies over Tarmogoyf and manlands and he costs a whopping 6 mana so it is really hard to hit him with Deed. Aven Mindcensor also flies, can hit at any moment thanks to flash (making it riskier for Landstill to tap out) and obviously hoses Survival quite a bit.
Normally the plan is to board in lots of critters when my opponent boards out his removal and go the Stompy plan with Chalice, Trinisphere and Armageddon helping the fliers to go all the way.
In the future I'll test the "manplan" a bit more and I'll also think about re-adding Mishra's Factory, maybe in place of the Quarter and some Plains.

[kabal]

Some more details.
My list for the tournament was

....

SB
4 Defense Grid
4 Suppression Field
3 Duskrider Peregrine
3 Aven Mindcensor
1 Oblivion Ring

How did Suppression Fields work out for you? How many times was it boarded in? What MUs did it play a crucial role?

[Silverdragon]

How did Suppression Fields work out for you? How many times was it boarded in? What MUs did it play a crucial role?

I boarded it in against Breakfast where it not only stops the combo but also Aether Vial and the fetchlands (contrary to Ghostly Prison it does not however stop a 1/1 and a 1/2 from attacking *frown*). I also boarded it against Affinity where it again helps against Vial and also Ravager. I didn't draw it in my match against Affinity but if I had it would've helped against Engineered Explosives and Seal of Primordium too. (btw the Breakfast player showed me a Seal of Cleansing that he boarded after the match)
You can also board it in against Landstill. (I didn't because time was running out and being under pressure I forgot what to take out so I just threw in the 6 creatures and some Grids for Prisons and Tabernacle effects. I think the correct plan is to board out the Mox Diamonds.)
One match where I considered it too was Ichorid because I was thinking about bluffing him out of dredging but in the end I figured that my opponent was smart enough to just call a judge and ask whether he could dredge with Field on board or not (for those who still don't know: yes you can as dredge is a replacement ability).
Generally Field is mainly in my board for 2 things: 1. Slowing down Survival and 2. Utterly destroying Goblins (well it's not that extreme but against Goblins it stops Aether Vial, Wasteland and Port, Siege Gang Commander, Gempalm Incinerator, Mogg Fanatic, Goblin Sharpshooter, Kiki Jiki and Goblin Tinkerer in addition to the obvious fetchlands)
Ah, I almost forgot another good use: Loam variants and XYLands.dec also have a hard time dealing with Field. Cyclelands cost extra, Maze of Ith suddenly becomes Kor Haven, Barbarian Ring and Manlands require at least 3 mana etc.

[f|i[p]]

@silverdragon

I have noticed that you had only 2 smokestack in your list, how did that go for you? Did you even miss smokestack at all or wanted it at times you could have had it in your hand?

[JDunkin00]

How did Suppression Fields work out for you? How many times was it boarded in? What MUs did it play a crucial role?

Suppression Fields owns fetchland heavy decks, more taxes for goblins to pay, but slows your wastelands. Thank you for using Ghost Quaters. I am an avid fan of it, besides the fact a lot of decks run 2 -3 basics so you can run them out of targets quickly to make total wastelock. Plus the mana fixing for yourself could be benificial sometimes.

[Julian23]

Hi partypeople,

right now my Sideboard consists of:
4x Sphere of Law
4x Defense Grid
4x Suppression Field
3x Oblivion Ring

As it seems quite clear to me when to sideboard in which card the hard choice I have to make is what to side out for. I'm rather new to playing this deck so could any of you give me some advice regarding the general sideboard-plan against the usual suspects Landstill, Threshold, Ceph.Breakfeast, Aggro Loam etc.?

Thanks and goodbye

[Silverdragon]

Hi there, been some time since I last replied.
@f|i[p] There were some games where Oblivion Ring was dead in my hand but those games were against Ichorid and TES so Smokestack would not have been any different. In all the other games that day 2 Smokestacks were ok too but I will most likely go up to 3 again (purely by feel and intuition; This is not tested)
@JDunkin00 Manafixing with Ghost Quarter actually was relevant in my match against Burn that day when I Quartered my Flagstones to get double white for Exalted :)
However in all the matchups where Wasteland is great Quarter is "just" another Wasteland and in all the matches where Wasteland is bad Quarter is worse so I'll most likely cut it for Horizon Canopy in the future.
@Julian23
Against Landstill you generally board out Chalice, any Tabernacle effects and some mix of Ghostly Prison and Trinisphere (if your opponent plays Deed) so you can bring in 4 Grids, 4 Fields and maybe Oblivion Ring.
Threshold is a bit more complicated as it depends on what your opponent boards out (if Swords go out Magus stays in for example) and what version he plays (how many colors? Counterbalance or no? 4cc threats or no? Stifles and Wastes? etc.). Generally you don't want to board in the Suppression Fields as most of your maindeck is stronger than Fields against them. Ironically the card that can go most easily, especially if you are on the draw, is Chalice of the Void. Right now I believe (and my testing has shown this to be true most of the time) setting Chalice @ 2 is far stronger than setting it @ 1 against Threshold (of course Chalice @1 on turn 1 is still ridiculous but if you can get down a Chalice @2 before they play Goyf the game obviously becomes a lot easier to win). So if you are on the draw game 2 you board out Chalice for Defense Grid and 3 Magus for 3 Oblivion Ring (boarding out some number of Ghostly Prison and Armageddon is also fine but as I said it depends on what you expect your opponent to be doing). If you are on the play after sideboarding you again board in Grids but this time it gets harder to decide what to board out. I generally board out a combination of Armageddon and Crucibles (2/2 split or 3/1 split) however I'm not sure here (I still need more testing).
Now on to Breakfast. Here you want Oblivion Rings and all the Suppression Fields. This time you can board out Exalted Angel.
*aside* Angel stays in against Thresh because it can race a 6/7 Goyf and kill Nimble Mongoose which Magus can't. It costs 3 mana to play initially so it's easier to cast against Daze. However compare with the Magus-Swords example: if your opponent keeps in Engineered Explosives after boarding take out the Angel instead of Magus/Crucible/Geddon.
*end aside*
Another card that can go is Armageddon as Wasteland usually does enough together with Ghostly Prison and other lockpieces here.
Against most Aggro Loam builds you can only board in Suppression Field and I suggest you cut Trinisphere as almost all Loam builds can work around it and even use it to their advantage with Wastelands of their own. Some versions play Seismic Assault and Sphere of Law is obviously good against that. However unless you've also seen multiple red creatures I'd rather advise you to bring in Oblivion Rings. In any case Magus of the Tabernacle is again an obvious card to be cut here.

I hope this answers some questions. Thanks for your interest in the deck.