Okay I was playing the deck to get a feel for it and I've got more questions :D . What's are the best spells to throw to FoW? Here's a rough order of what I went by in my few practice games:
Another Fow -> Daze -> Counterspell -> Predict -> Sleight of Hand -> Serum Visions -> Brainstorm -> Meddling Mage
How does that look? Is it better to toss another counter with the FoW over some cantrips(I also realize it can be dependant on the status of the game, but generally)? Help would be definately appreciated.
About the Shoal, I guess it could work. I didn't read your post until now so it wasn't in the deck I played with yesterday and didn't get to try it. I'll try and get some games with it in today(and also read that article)
What to pitch to FoW REALLY depends upon the situation of the game. If you are forcing through a threat then pitching a threat might not be a terrible idea. If you have 7 cards in hand and are about to win the game with what you have then getting rid of draw is never a bad idea. If you're playing combo then I would never pitch a Daze or Counterspell. You need to evaluate the situation and decide which card is the weakest during the match and under current game-state.
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
I have never once had trouble with rgsa, but my testing against it is rather limited. Pithing Needle is very good in that particular match-- though I would probably not exactly be expecting tsunami. I will say that not killing anger seems like a bad idea, as hasty creatures aren't THAT relevant-- if large amounts of big guys hit the table, the game is going to be over anyways.
Well I did leave one mana open when casting stuff I wanted to keep. That way I avoid getting dazed. I think all three opponents got pithing needle down naming survival, but I rarely get survival anyway. tsunami is actually my last chioce. I prefer to get geae's blessing to put your damaging land back and cantrip, or land grant to get ahead, or the ruination cuz you have only a couple basics if any, or meltdown to be able to use survivial again, then the tsunami cuz blue is evil. The longest match was against a tog-grow player who knew enought to name FTK mith the medling mage. That was technicaly the 4th gro deck I beat, but he had tog, and the dryad. It was a day two matchup. He learned to respect the power of turn one orcish lumberjack. That and spore frog swings with haste.
Survival will be good forever... kinda like a maraschino cherry.
Here's a though for the U/g/b version of this deck. Since you're only running 3 cards that cost UU, all of them replacable, wouldn't it make sense to drop the lone counterspell and maybe one drawspell(or something like that) and add a few copy's of Hymn to Tourach? I know that it doesn't add anything to the deck's synergy or anything but dang Hymn is sooooo strong that I think that the inclusion of a few copies would strenthgen the deck overall.
I think you would be amazed at how big a difference it is to only have 4 hard counters. No to mention the fact that Hymn is 1. a sorcery 2. has a double black CC and 3. stricly worse than duress in its versatiliy and speed.
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.
While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
After reading this primer (which is very good I must add), playtesting the deck, and delineating Ridiculous Hat's arguments in the old Super-Gro thread, I've come to the conclusion, much like he did, that Portent and Accumulated Knowledge are weak while maindeck Sleight of Hand is strong. But on the other hand, I've found Predict to also be pretty bad. While the opportunity to draw 2 cards exists, I've tested and loved Mental Note in that slot. Just like Predict, it draws and achieves Threshold. In my opinion, and I may be in the minority here, Mental Note is overall a better choice for the deck.
I agree completely, but I've been testing mainly with the red version, which is inherently more aggressive, so my opinion ont he matter may be skewed.
Well, the two decks shouldn't be too different. In essence, Predict is usually an Accumulated Knowledge with no more in the graveyard. Even worse, the more times you play it, it still doesn't get better. The only problem as I see it is that in my build there are simply too many 1CC draw spells with the addition of Mental Note. So, Sleight of Hand (the generally recognized worst 1CC draw spell) could go out in favor of Accumlated Knowledge. The only problem there is that I don't like AK. Looks like I need to do some more testing...
AK I have very rarely been happy with-- but I can see your arguments on Mental Note, and a lot of times I agree with you. However, there are a few reasons that I have predict instead.
A) Milling two cards can sometimes hit answers that you need. Gro typically "cheats" on creature and spell counts and sometimes you can mill away the answers you really need. I know that Predict suffers from this sometimes too, but the chance is lower. Typically this isn't a concern but sometimes late-game you'll be looking for an enforcer and then one will hit the bin-- or similar circumstances.
B) Predict is really powerful in the control matchups when you have a little more time to set up. It's not too hard to hold on to a serum visions or a brainstorm there and at that point Predict becomes actual card advantage and is quite awesome..
C) Predict is really good against decks with enlightened or mystical tutors.
I think it deserves a place in the UGw version. The UGr version is significantly more aggressive and I think Mental Note is correct there.
I'm fairly certain that milling yourself doesn't increase the chances of not drawing a certain card. Yes, you can end up milling the card you want, but it can also mill away chaff so you can get to that card in time.
For example, let's say you have one Mystic Enforcer left in your library and you cast Mental Note. Is the Enforcer any more likely to be on top of your library than three cards from the top?
It's not any more likely, but I'm just saying that because Gro plays smaller numbers of specialized cards-- only 4 swords for creature removal, only 3 enforcer for evading beats, etc-- the chance of milling them away might be more relevant than the chance of getting to them faster. You are correct that the random chance is the same, but there are two outcomes possible and I'm not sure they have the same weight. I haven't tested Mental Note enough, to be sure, so if anyone who is still actively testing the format wishes to try out Note and post in this thread about it, I'd love to hear how it performs. I know the UGr deck likes it a lot and I'd be very open to the idea of playing it here. I just think UGw is a lot less about redundancy plus beatings and a lot more about answers plus beatings than the UGr build.
What exactly are you guys talking about?
Edited By Mad Zur on 1133127086
Burn spells and what seems to me like a slightly worse late-game, especially against larger threats. Please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like UGr's plan is about getting beats in earlier than UGw.What exactly are you guys talking about?
I've been playing UGr Gro for quite a while, and while you are being aggressive, generally you just lay a single threat and keep swinging. I have never had a problem getting turn 4 threshold and having mana open for counters/burn whenever nessecary, or turn 3 threshold if I reduce my options.
UGr Gro has a fantastic lategame, especially against decks that pack either low numbers of threats or low amounts of powerful removal, like StP or Counterspell, because I have burned many opponents out from 8-12 life or won a game in one or two swings with the Fledgling Dragon. Swinging with a 9-power flyer is how I have won many goblin matches, after slowing the game to a crawl and bogging the ground up with Mongeese and Werebears.
I think that Predict and Strategic Planning should be in UGr Gro, because those two cards enable fast threshold while giving you extremely good card quality/quantity. Also, Magma Jet should be run as a 4-of in every single UGr Gro deck, because it is quality burn that greatly increases the quality of your topdecks and doubles as a half-cantrip (in setting up future draws), not to mention the fact that it sets up Predict wonderfully. I often cast Draw2 Predicts against Goblins and other decks because of the Jet, since I can set up my library at their EOT and Predict again at their next EOT, while still having enough mana open and available for burn and counters.
The build of UGr Gro that Zur and I play is the same as a UGw deck, but with better removal and better threats. The strategy remains the same.
While it's true that Swords is better than Bolt against fatties, ...those don't exist in Legacy.
You're wrong about UGr's plan being any different than UGw's. Burn may give the deck a bit of extra speed, but that doesn't come at any sort of cost to the lategame. Why would you assume that?
Now, although atypical, a UGr list like Sarcasto's actually has more answers than UGw even has access to. His list has 8 hard counters (plus 4 Dazes) and 8 spot removal spells. How can his deck not be "about answers plus beatings"?
Hat, I'm disappointed to see you making assertions about the red build when it sounds like you still haven't tested it. If you haven't already, you really should give it a shot.
Fat does somewhat exist in the mirrors and against Reanimator, but I will admit to not really testing the UGr build that much. My assumptions were based on the list having 0 spells that draw more than one card and 0 cards that answer more than one card (except for pyroclasms in the side and fire/ice on two 1/1s). It doesn't have any cards like Meddling Mage, Pithing Needle, or even Predict to nullify multiple cards at once or get actual card advantage. It seems like a significantly more aggressive strategy, and while you still have counters, the deck seems somewhat less versatile to me. Again, I haven't tested very much as I am no longer actively playing this format-- I'm just going on what I've seen and what I know about the UGw build and other decks that I've played in the past. It seems like UGr is much more of a metagame build as well, more prepared for the decks that are well-known but with less of the "universal" answer cards that the white build has access to and/or plays. Am I wrong? I trust you to correct me.The build of UGr Gro that Zur and I play is the same as a UGw deck, but with better removal and better threats. The strategy remains the same.
While it's true that Swords is better than Bolt against fatties, ...those don't exist in Legacy.
You're wrong about UGr's plan being any different than UGw's. Burn may give the deck a bit of extra speed, but that doesn't come at any sort of cost to the lategame. Why would you assume that?
Now, although atypical, a UGr list like Sarcasto's actually has more answers than UGw even has access to. His list has 8 hard counters (plus 4 Dazes) and 8 spot removal spells. How can his deck not be "about answers plus beatings"?
Hat, I'm disappointed to see you making assertions about the red build when it sounds like you still haven't tested it. If you haven't already, you really should give it a shot.
If anything I would think that the version with Red is able to generate better card advantage than the version with Blue. Fire/Ice obviously does so vs. Weenie strategies, and with Goblins making up well over a third of most large scale competitions, it seems like a safe bet that Fire/Ice will remain an incredibly strong choice.
Additionally, it seems like Predict is even stronger in the UGr build. Since in addition to the the normal Brainstorm and Serum Visions, you gaim Magma Jet (as dsg123456789 pointed out). It seems like having 12 cards to set up the Predict engine would greatly increase it's productivity as a card advantage machine.
In the UGr build you do sacrafice Meddling Mage. Meddling Mage certianly can be powerful I wouldnt try to argue against that and can provide a form of card advantage by locking cards in hand. But given such a Goblin heavy meta-game the Red route seems like the stronger choice.
I think if anything the Burn is stronger in the late game than Swords is, and thus the UGr version has a stronger late game than the UGw version. There is really next to no fat in this format. The only card that comes to mind is DSC that The Game sometimes uses. Swords obviously could be some help vs big guys, but it sets you back in the damage race, where as extra burn can push you ahead if your in control. Fire/Ice has the added bonus of being able to buy a turn against huge fat as well that helps to make up for the fact that the UGr version falls short in permanent answers to large creatures.
Overall I would be inclined to say the Red version is the stronger of the two given the position that the meta-game is in right now.
Ok I wont lie, the deck is great, but what does this deck do against 32 creatures maindeck. Most with trix to boot? 4/4 for 2 isn't that hot against ftk. It handles the main 2 decks in the format, but how does it do against us randoms. Even Geddon is tollerable.?.?.?
Survival will be good forever... kinda like a maraschino cherry.
Well, Sarcasto played 0 predicts. That's the list I was going by.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying UGr is bad or that Fire/Ice isn't a good card. It just simply doesn't play any card advantage that isn't Fire/Ice in the maindeck.
As for the no fat in this format, well, in looking at the top 8 I think we might start to see more fat thanks to this deck. It was the most popular archetype in the t8 and 0 of the burn spells in the deck can kill any creature in any gro deck except for Meddling Mage. Swords may start to become more important.
And yes, I agree that UGr is a more accurate metagame deck. But this format does not have a well-defined metagame, and UGw is more than capable of beating goblins. As I said, I think UGw is better against the unexpected.
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