[DTB] U/G/x Thresh - a.k.a. Not Quite Gro, SuperGro

[Bardo]

So, my question is, why has no one given a list with md orbs a try? I would be inclined to say that it fits this deck's strategy quite nicely; especially when coupled with additional mana denial in the form of Stifle.

I've tried it a couple of times. They're awful. They combo'd with Gush to break Worb's symmetry, but this deck is a mana hog, since you need to be aggressively cantripping early and often to dig for land and reach an early theshold.

Winter Orb is only good (from Thresh's side of the table), when you're already beating face and your opponent is tapped out. Up until that point, i.e. you're in aggro mode, they do as much or more damage to thresh as the opponent.

They seem good, but testing hasn't borne that out.



Edited By bardo_trout on 1133321867

[overlord95]

As for black, I guess you could play Possessed Aven, but honestly the best UGb threshold creature is Psychatog, even if it technically doesn't have threshold written on it.

I can asure you that psychatog is GOD FREAKIN AWFUL!!!!!
tog
1.) He doesnt have evasion
2.) He cant block piledriver
3.) To really exploit his abilty you need to run main md berserks
4.) He has bad synergy with the rest of the creatures in the deck

aven
1.) Kills tog, sea drake, meddling mage, galinas knight, and tradewind rider. plus more
2.) Can fly over for the win while werebear and mongoose holds the ground
3.) Gets in the way of piledriver.
4.) Easier on the manabase.

I can assure you that aven is infinitly better then tog just for the fact it flys.

[Anusien]

But playing Possessed Aven makes you play black, which is the weakest of the 3C Threshold splashes because it doesn't efficiently deal with creatures, especially Goblins. Also, Mystic Enforcer does just a good a time for beating Tog, it evades Tog (even with Wonder) and is a faster clock. It's also not REBable which has become important randomly.

[Artowis]

As for black, I guess you could play Possessed Aven, but honestly the best UGb threshold creature is Psychatog, even if it technically doesn't have threshold written on it.

I can asure you that psychatog is GOD FREAKIN AWFUL!!!!!
tog
1.) He doesnt have evasion
2.) He cant block piledriver
3.) To really exploit his abilty you need to run main md berserks
4.) He has bad synergy with the rest of the creatures in the deck

aven
1.) Kills tog, sea drake, meddling mage, galinas knight, and tradewind rider. plus more
2.) Can fly over for the win while werebear and mongoose holds the ground
3.) Gets in the way of piledriver.
4.) Easier on the manabase.

I can assure you that aven is infinitly better then tog just for the fact it flys.

I don't even know how to respond to such a statement.

1. Tog is cheaper.

2. Tog can actually kill the opponent in a relevant time frame and/or decide to be a very effective wall.

3. Tog doesn't die to the vast majority of burn or creature combat.

Ugh... yeah one of the best creatures in the game sucks because he doesn't fly. Right. On a side-note, GAT has been pretty bad since Gush got banned, so I don't know why anyone would want to run the black splash in the first place.



Edited By Artowis on 1133335539

[Ridiculous Hat]

As for black, I guess you could play Possessed Aven, but honestly the best UGb threshold creature is Psychatog, even if it technically doesn't have threshold written on it.

I can asure you that psychatog is GOD FREAKIN AWFUL!!!!!
tog
1.) He doesnt have evasion
2.) He cant block piledriver
3.) To really exploit his abilty you need to run main md berserks
4.) He has bad synergy with the rest of the creatures in the deck

aven
1.) Kills tog, sea drake, meddling mage, galinas knight, and tradewind rider. plus more
2.) Can fly over for the win while werebear and mongoose holds the ground
3.) Gets in the way of piledriver.
4.) Easier on the manabase.

I can assure you that aven is infinitly better then tog just for the fact it flys.

I don't even know how to respond to such a statement.

1. Tog is cheaper.

2. Tog can actually kill the opponent in a relevant time frame and/or decide to be a very effective wall.

3. Tog doesn't die to the vast majority of burn or creature combat.

Ugh... yeah one of the best creatures in the game sucks because he doesn't fly. Right. On a side-note, GAT has been pretty bad since Gush got banned, so I don't know why anyone would want to run the black splash in the first place.

Yeah, um, listen to him. Tog is deeeefinitely a really good creature, the problem is that the strategies inherent with Tog are pretty poor right now. He's a good creature that doesn't work in traditional threshold builds, and if you're splashing black you should probably be playing tog, as there's no real other reason to do so. Like, I agree-- playing Tog right now doesn't seem like a great idea in the face of infi swords and red blasts. However, saying he's bad because of that is just wrong-- if the metagame shifts correctly he could be a very potent force to be reckoned with. Tog hasn't had natural evasion for, um, ever, and that hasn't stopped it from dominating in multiple formats.

[Obfuscate Freely]

But playing Possessed Aven makes you play black, which is the weakest of the 3C Threshold splashes because it doesn't efficiently deal with creatures, especially Goblins.

Is this really coming from the guy who calls Legacy players bad because Engineered Plague isn't being played enough?

Ghastly Demise is pretty strong, too. Black's removal goes far deeper than White's, and probably Red's as well.

1. Tog is cheaper.

True, but hardly convincing on its own. At 4cc, Possessed Aven isn't beyond the curve.

2. Tog can actually kill the opponent in a relevant time frame and/or decide to be a very effective wall.

Possessed Aven can "actually" do that, too.

3. Tog doesn't die to the vast majority of burn or creature combat.

Neither does Aven.

Ugh... yeah one of the best creatures in the game sucks because he doesn't fly. Right.

The role it would play in the deck requires evasion. Aven is better because of that, and because its body doesn't require constant support to stay large.

On a side-note, GAT has been pretty bad since Gush got banned, so I don't know why anyone would want to run the black splash in the first place.

Splashing black in Gro does not turn the deck into GAT. What black offers to a Gro deck includes better draw (Night's Whisper), more disruption (Duress), and Engineered Plague. Possessed Aven isn't really a benefit of the splash; it's just a passable replacement for Enforcer.

I don't even know how to respond to such a statement.

This is why you should test things before you dismiss them.



Edited By Obfuscate Freely on 1133392612

[overlord95]

But playing Possessed Aven makes you play black, which is the weakest of the 3C Threshold splashes because it doesn't efficiently deal with creatures, especially Goblins.

At the gp I had 4 out of 4 goblin players scoop to double Eplague. Yea that definitly seems inefficent.

1. Tog is cheaper.

True but this fact alone does not justify his incluion in the md. By playing Night's whisper you can effectivly hit your land drops which will enusre the turn 4 aven.

2. Tog can actually kill the opponent in a relevant time frame and/or decide to be a very effective wall.

Aven kills swings for 4 every turn as opposed to tog which requires resources every turn to stay on par.

Ugh... yeah one of the best creatures in the game sucks because he doesn't fly. Right.

I'm not saying that tog is a bad creature. Don't get me wrong tog is amazing. What i'm trying to conveit is that the stratgy behind tog doesnt suit the deck or the spaces needed to fill the enforcer/dragon slots.

[Hof]

Psychatog has no place in here because the deck doesn't have a draw engine powerful enough to abuse him. The deck relies on few effective draws which is exactly what the atog does not want, it wants lots and lots of cards, and then more cards. This alone is reason enough to not even consider it, but it is antisynergistic with threshold mechanic as well. The idea is just terrible, really.

[Vimes]

You have never even tried GAT, have you, Hof? You have enough card in the grave yard that you only lose threshold when you go all in with 'tog. Seriously, think, or even better, test before you post.

The mod staff agrees with everything T is for Tool said in the post below this one. Unnecessarily abrasive posts that add nothing of value to the conversation are considered both flames and spams. Avoid it in the future or you will be warned. - Zilla

[T is for TOOL]

You have never even tried GAT, have you, Hof? You have enough card in the grave yard that you only lose threshold when you go all in with 'tog. Seriously, think, or even better, test before you post.

That was very abrasive and uncalled for. Your comment does nothing to add to the discussion and your choice of wording smacks of GRAH. Comments like that are the reason some people avoid this site. Since you seem to have missed this fact, the deck in question is UGB Gro, not GAT. Not having ever played Gro before, I'm more inclined to listen to those who advocate Possessed Aven based on theory and actual testing, over those that claim you should run Tog beacuse he is 'deeeefinitely a really good creature'.

[Bardo]

As someone who really wanted GAT to work in Legacy (and I mean, really), after trying dozens of configurations, I could never get the deck to perform as well as UWG. Splashing Black, you'll do so much better with Loam/Dredge-A-Tog.

4 Psychatog
4 Werebear / Dryad
1 Wonder

4 Brainstorm
4 Night's Whispers
3 Intuition
2 Deep Analysis
1 Life from the Loam

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Daze

3 Ghastly Demise
2 Darkblast

4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Lonely Sandbar
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest / Bayou

(sideboard)
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Engineered Plague
4 Duress
3 Naturalize / Pernicious Deed

Eh, maybe? But tacking "Threshold" or "GAT" onto this, if you're secondary beater is Werebear or Dryad, respectively, seems kinda silly. I'd just assume drop those support creatures and add more control elements, and let Tog do what he does best.

Bardo, not intentionally pulling this discussion off the beaten path.



Edited By bardo_trout on 1133398777

[SpencerForHire]

My main issue with Tog is that he is a one trick horse, or dog or whatever type of animal that is. :D
The reason tog is so weak right now is because you have to invest cards in him. The cards you do invest are a one time only investment, they do nothing the next turn.

Threshold is a strong deck because the creatures are cheaply costed cards that require no other investment besides that of the deck functioning and setting up it's hand with control elements and the like.

If Tog was to work he would have to get through the time you swing and you have to win that turn. If you don't you're going to overextended your resources and be out of cards in general.

The reason GAT works in Type 1 is because their aren't the large variety of blockers to get in the way and even if there are you have already set up your fist so full of counters (and probably that wonderful card called berserk) that it just won't matter.

Unfortunately in a format full of creatures (and hate thereof) you just aren't going to have the one card combo results that Psychatog put up in our more expensive brethren of a format.

[Ridiculous Hat]

You have never even tried GAT, have you, Hof? You have enough card in the grave yard that you only lose threshold when you go all in with 'tog. Seriously, think, or even better, test before you post.

That was very abrasive and uncalled for. Your comment does nothing to add to the discussion and your choice of wording smacks of GRAH. Comments like that are the reason some people avoid this site. Since you seem to have missed this fact, the deck in question is UGB Gro, not GAT. Not having ever played Gro before, I'm more inclined to listen to those who advocate Possessed Aven based on theory and actual testing, over those that claim you should run Tog beacuse he is 'deeeefinitely a really good creature'.

I claim that tog is definitely a really good creature because I've played with him in many formats and he is purely ridiculous to play agianst sometimes. I'm merely saying that UGb gro is a weaker splash and I think not playing Tog in it is a mistake-- yes, I have tested it, and yes, I'd like to say that I have some experience with gro. I do agree that abrasive posting is a mistake, but saying that Tog is bad reeks just as much of lack of proper playtesting. If one were to qualify the statement with "Tog is bad in this format because of the way decks are tending and the difficulty inherent in trying to protect a single threat", then I'd be inclined to take it more seriously.

[umbowta]

I've been testing the black splash for a couple of weeks now. I really love the addition of Duress and E-plague to the board. The thing I've missed the most is the big flying body of Mystic Enforcer. I did indeed try Psychatog, which felt like trying to stuff a square peg into a round hole.

I can asure you that psychatog is GOD FREAKIN AWFUL!!!!!
tog
1.) He doesnt have evasion
2.) He cant block piledriver
3.) To really exploit his abilty you need to run main md berserks
4.) He has bad synergy with the rest of the creatures in the deck

All of my testing supports Overlord95's conclusions. The opening caused by Mystic Enforcer's absence needs to be filled with a reasonably costed flyer. Posessed Aven happens to fit the role best, until WoTC gives us something better for 4cc.

Tog is awful in UGb gro. Tog is good in GAT. These are two completely different decks. While I initially thought that tog would be a good fit in UGb Gro, testing proved otherwise. While I agree that UGb is currently the weaker of the 3 UGx's, I strongly believe that is has the most potential waiting to be unlocked. The sideboarding potential alone is sweeeeet.

saying that Tog is bad reeks just as much of lack of proper playtesting.

I respect your oppinion, Hat, as your recent sucess conveys a high level of competence. In order to come to some sort of resolve on this issue, I'm wanting to do some retesting with Tog in UGb. What does your UGb list look like with the Tog inclusion, and what adjustments do you think need to be made in play strategy in order to attain "proper playtesting"? Please remember that I am of the mind that there is a fundamental difference between UGb and GAT.

[AnwarA101]

I know that someone previously mentioned Dark Confidant in this thread and I was thinking along the same lines. Wouldn't it make sense to have a creature that creates pure card advantage. I was thinking something along the lines of the following -


4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Dark Confidant
2 Possessed Aven

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Counterspell

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Sensei Diving Top
4 Predict

4 Ghastly Demise

4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Swamp

This is very similar to overlord95's build but Night's Whisper is just replaced with Confidant and the Divinig Top is added because it works well with Confidant and Predict.

[t3h.sWaRm]

Don't mean to change the topic but I have a few questions about the UWG version of the deck. I've started putting it together and testing it on apprentice, but there are still some things that I need to know, mainly sideboarding. I find it very difficult to decide what to take out for sideboard cards. What I'd like to have is a skeleton of what MUST remain in the deck(in ALL matchups) and what are side-outable. Clearly the lands will stay in, we need some beats so I never take out creatures unless I'm swapping in Mongeese(is that wrong?), the control element is essential for protection, and cantrips build the yard. What else can I take out? Like I said before, a list of what CAN be taken out would be greatly appreciated or better yet, what do you sideboard for the main matchups(Gobs, Mirror, etc)? My SB is currently that of Ridiculous Hat's (I have yet to test any changes, still getting used to the deck).

[Bardo]

I hope this helps.

sb 4 Blue Elemental Blast
sb 3 Seal of Cleansing
sb 3 Tivadar’s Crusade
sb 3 Pithing Needle
sb 2 Armageddon

Goblins
+4 Blue Elemental Blast
+3 Tivadar’s Crusade
-4 Accumulated Knowledge
-3 Meddling Mage

Sligh/RDW, Burn
+4 Blue Elemental Blast
-4 Accumulated Knowledge

Landstill
+3 Seal of Cleansing
+2 Armageddon
-2 Sleight of Hand
-1 Disenchant
-1 Disrupting Shoal
-1 Engineered Explosives

High Tide
+2 Armageddon
-2 Swords to Plowshares

Survival, Reanimation
+3 Pithing Needle
-2 Sleight of Hand
-1 Disrupting Shoal

Psychatog / Madness
+3 Pithing Needle
-2 Disenchant
-1 Sleight of Hand

Fish
+2 Armageddon
+1 Seal of Cleansing
-2 Sleight of Hand
-1 Meddling Mage

Affinity
+3 Seal of Cleansing
+1 Armageddon
-4 Accumulated Knowledge

Angel Stompy
+3 Seal of Cleansing
-3 Accumulated Knowledge

Pithing Needle is new to me, so I'm still working on how best to incorporate it.



Edited By bardo_trout on 1133477531

[Ridiculous Hat]

I agree that GAT and UGb gro are different decks, and to an extent I think my message got muddled or perhaps my understanding of what was being discussed was off. I think Tog is a very good creature in an environment not quite suited to him, regardless of the fact that he will win many games. However, I think that once you put Tog in a gro deck, the deck tends to shift very quickly towards GAT-- which is not necessarily a bad thing. In my testing, I agree that Tog cannot just be put in the Mystic Enforcer slots. However, as soon as I even thought about adding black to the deck, there was no list I could even think of running that wasn't GAT-- otherwise the deck just didn't seem to work period. Maybe I glossed over the middle step too quickly, but in my eyes, there's no reason to add black to gro unless you're going to play GAT.

[Bardo]

@ Hat, anyone else - Which matches do you side Pithing Needle out? Do you keep them in against Goblins?

[Obfuscate Freely]

I think that once you put Tog in a gro deck, the deck tends to shift very quickly towards GAT-- which is not necessarily a bad thing. In my testing, I agree that Tog cannot just be put in the Mystic Enforcer slots. However, as soon as I even thought about adding black to the deck, there was no list I could even think of running that wasn't GAT-- otherwise the deck just didn't seem to work period. Maybe I glossed over the middle step too quickly, but in my eyes, there's no reason to add black to gro unless you're going to play GAT.

What's difficult to imagine about simply swapping white and black cards?

STP becomes Ghastly Demise or Vendetta.
Enforcer becomes Possessed Aven or Sea Drake.
Predict or Portent/Sleight of Hand becomes Night's Whisper.

Aside from Whisper, you also gain access to Plague, Duress, and a whole lot of other things to consider for the board. Those are the reasons to play black in Gro.