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Thread: [Deck] Death and Taxes

  1. #4161
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Man, i would suggest playing the deck a lot more and exploring different builds/sideboard option before saying U/R delver is unbeatable. Actually I (and most people) think that it is an even or quite favorable. While treasure cruise and dig through time are a problem, spirit of the labyrinth , gaddock teeg, relic of progenitus are decent answers, and we have a lot of cards that crush their gameplan (mother of runes is good against removal, vial stops counterspells, thalia and manadenial are very good since they run few lands, equipments are game over.... ). Awesome sideboard cards that can completely swing the matchup in our favor are kor firewalker, circle of protection red and absolute law. The problematic matchup is uwr stoneforge/nemesis, not U/R. If you post your build we can maybe understand why you are having so much troubles.

  2. #4162
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    ^I find it the other way around. I'm not having trouble with those URW Stoneblade lists because they are slower out of the gate, compared to UR delver where playing on the draw is such a beating.

  3. #4163

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by LeoCop 90 View Post
    Man, i would suggest playing the deck a lot more and exploring different builds/sideboard option before saying U/R delver is unbeatable. Actually I (and most people) think that it is an even or quite favorable. While treasure cruise and dig through time are a problem, spirit of the labyrinth , gaddock teeg, relic of progenitus are decent answers, and we have a lot of cards that crush their gameplan (mother of runes is good against removal, vial stops counterspells, thalia and manadenial are very good since they run few lands, equipments are game over.... ). Awesome sideboard cards that can completely swing the matchup in our favor are kor firewalker, circle of protection red and absolute law. The problematic matchup is uwr stoneforge/nemesis, not U/R. If you post your build we can maybe understand why you are having so much troubles.
    In my experience, they will burn your Mother before it become active. They typically run 3 Forked Bolts which continues to 2-for-1 you. They will counter Absolute Law and copr. Stoneforge will also never get to become active.

    How does you sideboard look like? I dont have room for Firewalkers.

  4. #4164

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Also, these stats shows very clearly that DnT struggles against UR Delver:
    http://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/co...or_archetypes/

  5. #4165
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by echofish View Post
    Also, these stats shows very clearly that DnT struggles against UR Delver:
    http://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/co...or_archetypes/
    While I can't say that the matchup is favorable, it certainly shouldn't be that unfavored. Those results, while interesting, are odd. Look at the matchup versus Sneak and Show, 0-3. That is one of the more favored matchups this deck has, so things were certainly not breaking D&T's way that day.

    You need somethinig in the board though, because this matchup is close to even pre-board, but post-board they will have hate and you need to have hate, or counter-hate, as well. If you don't post your list though, we really can't help much, since we have no idea what you are using and why it might not be working.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  6. #4166

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    While I can't say that the matchup is favorable, it certainly shouldn't be that unfavored. Those results, while interesting, are odd. Look at the matchup versus Sneak and Show, 0-3. That is one of the more favored matchups this deck has, so things were certainly not breaking D&T's way that day.

    You need somethinig in the board though, because this matchup is close to even pre-board, but post-board they will have hate and you need to have hate, or counter-hate, as well. If you don't post your list though, we really can't help much, since we have no idea what you are using and why it might not be working.
    I use much of the same sideboard as Marc Kunig, but I'll try to make room for some Firewalkers. I guess they are better then copr and Law, in the sense that they can be uncounterable with vial and cavern. Also not getting taxed with Thalia.
    Last edited by echofish; 01-16-2015 at 01:40 AM.

  7. #4167
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Been testing relic of progenitus as a mainboard solution to all the delving that's been going on. People used to use it in the mainboard of merfolk back when for various reasons, and I can't think of a better reason than for resource denial, which suites this deck perfectly.

    This is the rough list:

    lands//22
    10 plains
    2 karakas
    2 flagstones of trokair
    2 cavern of souls
    2 rishadan port
    4 wasteland

    spells//12
    4 aether vial
    3 relic of progenitus
    3 swords to plowshares
    1 umezawa's jitte
    1 batterskull

    creatures//26
    4 thalia
    4 stoneforge
    4 mother of runes
    4 spirit of the labrinth
    4 flickerwisp
    3 serra avenger
    2 aven mindcensor
    1 mangara of corondor


    The sideboard is inconsequential at the moment. The inclusion of relic of progenitus into the mainboard is something that I feel may become more common in the future. I want the 4th in the main, but i'm not sure what to cut. I'm also not too sure about all the numbers, as I never really tested the deck until recently.

    Relic has been doing very well in testing, sometimes giving me free wins against graveyard dependent strategies. It also keeps treasure cruise decks honest. The singleton mangara seems random, but he always seems to show up to save my ass, so maybe the silver bullet is worth it.

    Any thoughts towards cleaning up the list for the currrent meta, while keeping the relics, let me know. I'd like to hear em.

  8. #4168
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Could the new B&R update be a good news to DNT players? I am thinking what I should play at GPT this weekend.
    Team Blood, Beijing.
    Currently play: Sneaky Show/ Lands

  9. #4169

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Yes, of course it's good news for DnT. Just be ready for the return of black attrition decks.

  10. #4170
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by thefreakaccident View Post
    Been testing relic of progenitus as a mainboard solution to all the delving that's been going on...
    Well, I thought that idea really had some merit... I guess its just not going to be as relevant anymore.

    That being said, if BUG is going to come back in a big way, MD Relic seems cool as a way to mitigate the power of Goyf in the mid-late game; I've always found 4 STP to be not nearly enough to deal with all the DRS and/or Delvers and/or Goyfs hitting the table.

    Plus I get the sense that cycling through the deck is actually something that we want to be able to do more of; experience with Horizon Canopy pointing me here. Lack of card selection outside of SFM means dig is actually helpful; the number of times I just need to draw an STP or another Wisp to steal the game...

  11. #4171
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Seems like the time to switch brimaz back to mirran crusader. Also seems like spirit of the labyrinth is less needed now, and perhaps the 4th revoker can return to being the norm. In the sideboard, cards like Absolute Law, COP:Red, and Ratchet Bomb might be able to be trimmed for cards that help against BUG strategies, like mirran crusader or wilt-leaf liege, or putting the 2nd rest in peace back in.

    Overall I think this is great news for DnT players.

  12. #4172
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Ok, made something Janky.

    lands//23
    4 scrubland
    1 marsh flats
    1 flooded strand
    1 arid mesa
    2 windswept heath
    4 wasteland
    3 karakas
    2 plains
    1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
    3 cavern of souls

    spells//
    4 aether vial
    3 zealous persecution
    1 batterskull
    1 sword of fire/ice

    creatures//27
    4 mother of runes
    4 stoneforge mystic
    4 thalia
    4 deathrite shaman
    4 braids, cabal minion
    3 mangara
    4 flickerwisp


    The deck is basically a creature based stax, and I've been seeing a lot of creatures with the backside of one recently, hence the persecutions.

  13. #4173

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Braids and Taxes. If only Braids was a 3 drop I'd be all over that. If you're going to try Braids though you might want some form of token generator to sack to Braids if need be, like perhaps Brimaz?

  14. #4174
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosque View Post
    Braids and Taxes. If only Braids was a 3 drop I'd be all over that. If you're going to try Braids though you might want some form of token generator to sack to Braids if need be, like perhaps Brimaz?
    Started testing brimaz as a four of since you mentioned him. He's actually a fantastic card. He deals good dmg and then also defends equally, i've been impressed. Fits the legend theme of the deck as well, which gives me a better chance of saving him via karakas.

  15. #4175
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Jesus, nice snap-ban from WotC. I guess since everyone else is convinced that BGx is coming back, we should consider Wilt-Leaf and Crusader again.
    "Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."

    I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.

  16. #4176

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    i know some decks have been trying a green splash, so would it be too much of a stretch to include birthing pod to pull out the silver bullet creatures when you need them? Seems slow tho?
    This suggestion is almost as bad as your "Chalice of the dark order" "innovation"

    Quote Originally Posted by echofish View Post
    I use much of the same sideboard as Marc Kunig, but I'll try to make room for some Firewalkers. I guess they are better then copr and Law, in the sense that they can be uncounterable with vial and cavern. Also not getting taxed with Thalia.
    Kunig?

    Don't bother with the firewalkers, they are bad and now they are unnecessary.

    My new list looks like this:


    Lands (23):

    1x Cavern of Souls
    1x Horizon Canopy
    3x Karakas
    4x Flagstones of Trokair
    6x Plains
    4x Rishadan Port
    4x Wasteland


    Creatures (26):

    4x Flickerwisp (4!!!)
    4x Mother of Runes
    4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4x Stoneforge Mystic
    4x Phyrexian Revoker
    2x Mangara of Corondor
    2x Mirran Crusader
    2x Serra Avenger

    Non-creature spells (11):

    4x Ęther vial
    4x Swords to Plowshares
    1x Umezawa's Jitte
    1x Sword of Fire and Ice
    1x Batterskull

    Sideboard:

    2x Cataclysm
    1x Council's Judgement
    2x Enlightened tutor
    3x Rest in Peace
    1x Pithing Needle
    1x Ratchet Bomb
    2x Ethersworn Canonist
    2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
    1x Mindbreak Trap


    Not done working on the sideboard yet. And Serra Avenger can be discussed, but it's usually pretty solid against stuff like Punishing Fire, Tarmogoyfs and Agents of the shardless variety.

    4x Flagstones now because the downside is almost non-existent and it wins games with Cataclysm when you're behind vs. Miracles, Nic Fit, Lands, 12 post etc.

    Deck is now better against: Miracles, Shardless BUG, Jund, Mirror, Stoneblade and a lot of random crap like Pox, Nic Fit etc.
    Deck is now worse against: Blood Moon decks, UR delver, Burn, Storm (game 1).

    EDIT: I expect miracles to dominate the meta, and if they don't push out elves enough. Then I will start including Containment Priest again. But for now we will wait and see how the meta plays out, but I would play this list in any open meta with the new B&R list.

  17. #4177
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Ill sleeve it and give you my opinion on it Bahra.
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  18. #4178
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Bahra View Post
    This suggestion is almost as bad as your "Chalice of the dark order" "innovation"
    I hate posting non-topic stuff, but, for some inexplicable reason, I have been laughing for over a minute at this statement. I think I need help.

  19. #4179
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    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by razvan View Post
    I hate posting non-topic stuff, but, for some inexplicable reason, I have been laughing for over a minute at this statement. I think I need help.
    It's always funny watching someone get burned

  20. #4180

    Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes

    Bahra: Heh. Sorry about that :)

    Why only one Cavern? Also, I have big troubles resolving Cataclysm against Miracles. Since they have a hard time countering anything in the deck, they will have a counter spell ready for it.

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