Man, i would suggest playing the deck a lot more and exploring different builds/sideboard option before saying U/R delver is unbeatable. Actually I (and most people) think that it is an even or quite favorable. While treasure cruise and dig through time are a problem, spirit of the labyrinth , gaddock teeg, relic of progenitus are decent answers, and we have a lot of cards that crush their gameplan (mother of runes is good against removal, vial stops counterspells, thalia and manadenial are very good since they run few lands, equipments are game over.... ). Awesome sideboard cards that can completely swing the matchup in our favor are kor firewalker, circle of protection red and absolute law. The problematic matchup is uwr stoneforge/nemesis, not U/R. If you post your build we can maybe understand why you are having so much troubles.
^I find it the other way around. I'm not having trouble with those URW Stoneblade lists because they are slower out of the gate, compared to UR delver where playing on the draw is such a beating.
In my experience, they will burn your Mother before it become active. They typically run 3 Forked Bolts which continues to 2-for-1 you. They will counter Absolute Law and copr. Stoneforge will also never get to become active.
How does you sideboard look like? I dont have room for Firewalkers.
Also, these stats shows very clearly that DnT struggles against UR Delver:
http://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/co...or_archetypes/
While I can't say that the matchup is favorable, it certainly shouldn't be that unfavored. Those results, while interesting, are odd. Look at the matchup versus Sneak and Show, 0-3. That is one of the more favored matchups this deck has, so things were certainly not breaking D&T's way that day.
You need somethinig in the board though, because this matchup is close to even pre-board, but post-board they will have hate and you need to have hate, or counter-hate, as well. If you don't post your list though, we really can't help much, since we have no idea what you are using and why it might not be working.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Last edited by echofish; 01-16-2015 at 01:40 AM.
Been testing relic of progenitus as a mainboard solution to all the delving that's been going on. People used to use it in the mainboard of merfolk back when for various reasons, and I can't think of a better reason than for resource denial, which suites this deck perfectly.
This is the rough list:
lands//22
10 plains
2 karakas
2 flagstones of trokair
2 cavern of souls
2 rishadan port
4 wasteland
spells//12
4 aether vial
3 relic of progenitus
3 swords to plowshares
1 umezawa's jitte
1 batterskull
creatures//26
4 thalia
4 stoneforge
4 mother of runes
4 spirit of the labrinth
4 flickerwisp
3 serra avenger
2 aven mindcensor
1 mangara of corondor
The sideboard is inconsequential at the moment. The inclusion of relic of progenitus into the mainboard is something that I feel may become more common in the future. I want the 4th in the main, but i'm not sure what to cut. I'm also not too sure about all the numbers, as I never really tested the deck until recently.
Relic has been doing very well in testing, sometimes giving me free wins against graveyard dependent strategies. It also keeps treasure cruise decks honest. The singleton mangara seems random, but he always seems to show up to save my ass, so maybe the silver bullet is worth it.
Any thoughts towards cleaning up the list for the currrent meta, while keeping the relics, let me know. I'd like to hear em.
Could the new B&R update be a good news to DNT players? I am thinking what I should play at GPT this weekend.
Team Blood, Beijing.
Currently play: Sneaky Show/ Lands
Yes, of course it's good news for DnT. Just be ready for the return of black attrition decks.
Well, I thought that idea really had some merit... I guess its just not going to be as relevant anymore.
That being said, if BUG is going to come back in a big way, MD Relic seems cool as a way to mitigate the power of Goyf in the mid-late game; I've always found 4 STP to be not nearly enough to deal with all the DRS and/or Delvers and/or Goyfs hitting the table.
Plus I get the sense that cycling through the deck is actually something that we want to be able to do more of; experience with Horizon Canopy pointing me here. Lack of card selection outside of SFM means dig is actually helpful; the number of times I just need to draw an STP or another Wisp to steal the game...
Seems like the time to switch brimaz back to mirran crusader. Also seems like spirit of the labyrinth is less needed now, and perhaps the 4th revoker can return to being the norm. In the sideboard, cards like Absolute Law, COP:Red, and Ratchet Bomb might be able to be trimmed for cards that help against BUG strategies, like mirran crusader or wilt-leaf liege, or putting the 2nd rest in peace back in.
Overall I think this is great news for DnT players.
Ok, made something Janky.
lands//23
4 scrubland
1 marsh flats
1 flooded strand
1 arid mesa
2 windswept heath
4 wasteland
3 karakas
2 plains
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
3 cavern of souls
spells//
4 aether vial
3 zealous persecution
1 batterskull
1 sword of fire/ice
creatures//27
4 mother of runes
4 stoneforge mystic
4 thalia
4 deathrite shaman
4 braids, cabal minion
3 mangara
4 flickerwisp
The deck is basically a creature based stax, and I've been seeing a lot of creatures with the backside of one recently, hence the persecutions.
Braids and Taxes. If only Braids was a 3 drop I'd be all over that. If you're going to try Braids though you might want some form of token generator to sack to Braids if need be, like perhaps Brimaz?
Jesus, nice snap-ban from WotC. I guess since everyone else is convinced that BGx is coming back, we should consider Wilt-Leaf and Crusader again.
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
This suggestion is almost as bad as your "Chalice of the dark order" "innovation"
Kunig?
Don't bother with the firewalkers, they are bad and now they are unnecessary.
My new list looks like this:
Lands (23):
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Horizon Canopy
3x Karakas
4x Flagstones of Trokair
6x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
Creatures (26):
4x Flickerwisp (4!!!)
4x Mother of Runes
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Mangara of Corondor
2x Mirran Crusader
2x Serra Avenger
Non-creature spells (11):
4x Ęther vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull
Sideboard:
2x Cataclysm
1x Council's Judgement
2x Enlightened tutor
3x Rest in Peace
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ratchet Bomb
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
1x Mindbreak Trap
Not done working on the sideboard yet. And Serra Avenger can be discussed, but it's usually pretty solid against stuff like Punishing Fire, Tarmogoyfs and Agents of the shardless variety.
4x Flagstones now because the downside is almost non-existent and it wins games with Cataclysm when you're behind vs. Miracles, Nic Fit, Lands, 12 post etc.
Deck is now better against: Miracles, Shardless BUG, Jund, Mirror, Stoneblade and a lot of random crap like Pox, Nic Fit etc.
Deck is now worse against: Blood Moon decks, UR delver, Burn, Storm (game 1).
EDIT: I expect miracles to dominate the meta, and if they don't push out elves enough. Then I will start including Containment Priest again. But for now we will wait and see how the meta plays out, but I would play this list in any open meta with the new B&R list.
Bahra: Heh. Sorry about that :)
Why only one Cavern? Also, I have big troubles resolving Cataclysm against Miracles. Since they have a hard time countering anything in the deck, they will have a counter spell ready for it.
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