So they took out a bunch of deck's nice tricks... This makes me think about green splash again. Here's the deck:
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
2 Karakas -2 maindeck, 1 in Wishboard
3 Plains
2 Forest
4 Aether Vial
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Noble Hierarch - I think everyone who triedsplash, overlooked the girl. She's fucking awesome for DnT.
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Qasali Pridemage - 2 is right number for maindeck
3 Living Wish - we play mostly creatures and lands, so it fits perfect.
2 Mangara of Corondor - 2 maindeck, 1 in Wishboard
3 Flickerwisp
2 Stonecloacker - I cut one 'cause they nerfed him.
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Jitte/SoLaS/SoFaI - I need a lot of tests here...
SB:
1 Mangara - for more consistent lock
1 Karakas - for more consistent lock
1 Gaddock Teeg - For Combo and Landstill
1 Harmonic Sliver - For Vial on 3 and Flickerwisp/Cloaker tricks
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender - Wish makes them even better
2 Jotun Grunt - 'cause they are great
3 Children of Korlis - against Burn and Combo ('cause I don't own Chant and run Wish)
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - against Ichorid and Tribal
1 Kataki, War's Wage - against Affinity, StaX and Faerie Stompy.
1 Aven Mindcensor - Wish for him against Survival, Progenitus.decks, tutors/fetches in general.
I've done very little testing with the list for now, but:
I don't miss Serra Avenger much 'cause Exalted gives me power I need.
Noble Hierarch is the finding. I complained about early-game, but she accelerates me to mid-game state very quickly, fixes shaky manabase, helps to use Port and adds needed power. IMHO she acts like Wayfarer in therms of building your game, but she's faster, less conditional and Exalted rocks.
Living Wish looked a little slow, but Hierarch solved that. Rigth dude in right time wins games. I thought about Eladamri's Call for instant speed, but a)cost b)I have no space in MD for silver bullets and I already run many hate dudes in SB. You can also just do -3 Wish,-1 Windswept Heath, +2 Serra Avenger, +1 Mangara of Corondor, +1 Karakas
Qasali Pridemage. 2 is correct number. They are still good post-M10 to run them, but the deck just doesn't need more even pre-M10 'cause we already have solutions to some problematic art/ench and
Sword of Light and Shadow provides some nice tricks: Lock Graveyard with recurring Grunt, kill lots of art/ench with recurring Qasali, greater use for Wished/sided selfsacrificing dudes, just plain CA.
I will try Deftblade Elite+Exalted(+SoFaI/SoLaS) in Isamaru's slot 'cause he's one of my pet cards.
Last edited by eq.firemind; 06-11-2009 at 07:44 AM.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
Ok, I see now that we need some rumor control.
1. Damage on the stack is gone. Naturally I have played this deck plenty, and I think I have used this particular trick a grand total of 3 times in probably 300 games. It is truly no big deal. Really.
2. Vialing in a Flickerwisp at the beginning of the end of turn step is functionally unchanged. If this hed changed I would have been pissed.
3. Rishadan Port is marginally increased in power. Smart opponents can no longer keep the mana past their draw step when they choose to use the land in response.
4. Combo opponents lost a significant trick of their own with that same new rule.
All in all, I would call it a wash. So Chicken Little can stop with all that talk about the sky.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Originally Posted by Finn
So Finn, we can still block with Isamaru and return it to prevent the damage?
How you can ask that, yet manage to understand how to do the many tricks that this deck does baffles me.
Yes, you assign Isamaru as a blocker and then bounce once it has been declared as a blocker, before damage goes on the stack. Your puppy will not do damage, but will survive to fight another day.
I didn't realize that the astral slide trick still works with how I read the explanation of the end step on the article. I'll have to read it again maybe.
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.
Ok, since I appear to have been insulted, let me redo that previous post:
If I am to understand these new rules correctly, then if I block with an Isamaru, activate Karakas after blockers are assigned to return Isamaru to my hand, then the blocked creature will still be considered blocked and thus prevent damage from the 'blocked' attacker.
Right activate Karakas after declare blockers and before combat damage and it results in you getting to "fog" the attacker.
The only thing the new rule effects in this respect is that the blocker used to be able to put combat damage on the stack then be returned to safety. IE block a 4/4 with 2x 2/2s and then Karakas one of them back to your hand w/ lethal damage on the stack to kill the 4/4. Since combat will no longer use the stack there is no way to accomplish this if you wait for damage than it's too late to save them, and if you Karakas before damage than its not going to be lethal to the 4/4.
TPDMC
Now it's only the of other more tricky tricks that this does that will cause arguments and get S:PL messages. Bahaha.
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.
So, my PC is fucked up, and until I get it fixed I've been forced to use my roommate's Mac, and thus unable to test on MWS...
Which leads me to my question: Has anyone tested to see if this deck really does remain viable under the new rules? I know the combat damage no longer using the stack thing is a relatively small loss, but I've been under the impression that DnT needs to have every trick up its sleeve available to win sometimes.
*I just am a little apprehensive to start buying Karakases just yet until someone reassures me that DnT can still win... And also I noticed that this thread needed a bump.
@E.Q. Firemind: I'm still lol'ing over the fact that you don't want to drop dollars on Orim's Chant (which is understandable, it's expensive), yet you somehow have access to a Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale for your sideboard... A week hasn't really lessened the "wtf" aspect of this for me. Having said that, how's the Green splash been testing for you?
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Seriously? Do you count all the times when you are sitting with Isamaru+Karakas in defense and your opponent does not attack because he's expecting the trick? Because you have to take into account, not only the games when you used the trick but also the games when you could have used the trick but also the games where your opponent was forced to take a suboptimal option because the trick was legal.
Do you often play smart opponents? In my tourney environment, there are only 3 or 4 people able to play around port.3. Rishadan Port is marginally increased in power. Smart opponents can no longer keep the mana past their draw step when they choose to use the land in response.
I've already been bashed several times on these forums because I told that a particular build of mine was good in part because my opponents did not know to play against it. For instance when I used to play cascade/agony combo, my opponents wanted to counterspell the cascade spell or thought that they were safe behind solitary confinement. I think that playing a random deck is profitable because of this: the opponent don't know your card interactions, meaning that if they are borderline in their rules knowledge or if they can't define early your game plan, they will play suboptimally, and you'll have the advantage.
Now, I don't mean to bash death and taxes, because I own the deck as well, but that seems like terrible logic. Playing a random deck with mediocre cards may lead to some people playing suboptimally cause they dont know what they can do off the top of their head, but assuming that your opponent is incapable of understanding your deck seems like a strategy destined to fail.
If you're playing suboptimal cards just for the surprise factor to throw people off, you're bound to run into lots of situations where your opponents aren't retarded, and see what you're doing. At that point, all you have left is that you're playing suboptimal cards. Sounds bad.
"Maybe a long life does have to be filled with many unpleasant conditions if it's to seem long. But in the event, who wants one?"
"I do," Dunbar told him.
"Why?" Clevinger asked.
"What else is there?"
I've never said that I would play suboptimal cards. I say that it's sometimes optimal to 'help' the user make mistakes. I also say that DnT is not a deck that is highly expected and that a lot of people don't know a third of the tricks the deck can do, and that's a pro for DnT.
For instance, I've seen a lot of burn player (bad player archetype) lose to landstill just because the burn player did not know how to play around standstill. Expecting that a burn player plays bad is the strategy of a lot of decks.
Actually, no. I was not including those times. You make a valid point there.
After thinking about it, though. I think that this happens rarely. So much though, that I can't say for certainty that it has ever happened. Oh, it has probably happened a few times. But I don't think it has ever happened when I was aware of it. So it is really no big deal on one hand. And pretty scary on the other. I still think it is not a big deal, but you have to wonder...How often DOES this happen?
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Well, I ordered my Chants.
And my friends are nice guys, they gifted me Tabernacle at my last birthday
Here's my most rescent list with green:
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
2 Karakas
4 Plains
2 Forest
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
4 Noble Hierarch - AWESOME!!!
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Still the best for this slot. You can start beating 3 damage on 2nd turn (with Hierarch).
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger - Surprisingly I've found Pridemage unneeded here.
3 Living Wish - Another AWESOME!!!
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Mangara of Corondor
3 Flickerwisp
2 Stonecloaker
3 Oblivion Ring
Sideboard
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 1 Mangara of Corondor
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist - sided in against combo
SB: 1 Jotun Grunt - sided in against grave-dependant decks (read: 60% format)
SB: 3 Burrenton Forge-Tender - sided in against Burn, Gobbs, Aggro Loam
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - always remains in SB. Wishable bomb against swarms.
SB: 1 Children of Korlis - always remains in SB, I wish them against combo and burn
SB: 1 Harmonic Sliver - Flickerwisp's best friend. Stonecloaker's second (after Mangara) best friend.
SB: 3 Orim's Chant - Best combo-hate available. Proven.
SB: 1 Samurai of the Pale Curtain - always remains in side. I wish her against Dredge, Affinity and Loam.
SB: 1 Epochrasite - Beef slot. This 'thing' is my pet card, Flickerwisp and Vial make it descent. But feel free to try something else.
Unfortunaely I tested this only in MWS (no time).
Finally I've found Hierarch's place in Legacy (there is also Bant Survival, but I don't play blue). She solves manabase problem, gives you acceleration and small punch for just
Living wish. Remember that lack of CA problem? I figured out that we don't need many cards, we need the right card that will wreck exactly our current opponent. Exactly the card I always wanted in DnT.
Mana base. 6 basics is descent amount to negate all that Moons and Wastes. The deck don't need more than 1 green mana to operate, so you can freely fetch Plains 1 turn. And you have Vial and Hierarch. So I'm very happy with my current manabase. I had games where I had no
Sideboard. I build sidebord to use Wish's awesomness on full power.
Imagine I play against Burn. I'll side in 3 Burrentons, but I still have that Children of Korlis to Wish for.
Imagine I play against Combo. I'll side in 1 Canonist and 3 Chants, but I still have Children of Korlis to Wish for.
And I can always Wish for Karakas or Mangara to establish a lock.
@ Finn
Isamaru+Karakas=1 dead small dude for 2 mana (
Isamaru+Karakas=1 fogged small dude for 2 mana post-M10.
That is a huge difference. Pre-M10 it was card advantage, now it's tempoloss for you. Aggro decks (mostly Gobbs and Zoo) became a problem for me. As a solution, I included 3 Silver Knight in my mono-
// Lands
10 Plains
3 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Flagstones of Trokair
15
// Creatures
3 Stonecloaker
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Flickerwisp
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Mangara of Corondor
2-3 Serra Avenger
3-2 Silver Knight - depends on metagame
// Spells
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mana Tithe - I failed to find nice 1-drop to speed up the deck, so I decided to slow down opponent instead. This also helps against Landstill and Combo.
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Jotun Grunt
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte - Yep, only 2 in main. I decided to run 22 lands
SB: 3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 2 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
SB: 4 Orim's Chant
SB: 3 Cataclysm
Sideboard is under work now.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
What creatures in Zoo are small enough to die to Isamaru?
Lavamancer?
Confidant maybe?
Pridemage - that's pretty funny considering the discussion
If these creatures are present on the other side, they aren't attacking.
This is a big reason why it really is not happening much. Nobody wants to trade their utility creatures for Isamaru in combat in the first place. And none of their beaters are as small as ours. It is similar in most cases, but notably not when facing Goblins who would be glad to trade a Ringleader or a Hooligan for a vanilla dog. Of course in this case, they have their own changes to contend with.
This is why I am (aside from the point brought up by Maverick) not really concerned about it.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Figure of Destiny
Nacatl and Kird Ape 'cause you have Wastelands (and Flickerwisps) to shrink them.
But that was not only about Isamaru.
You know, that stacking combat damage tricks (or even threat of this unfair exchange) forced (aggro) decks to play more defensiely. It is like Canonist against Storm combo (not so great impact on gameplan, but more decks where you'll use it): their deck doesn't operate as it should. As far as I know, that's the heart of Death and Taxes: many small disrupts on their gameplan or key cards. Each different way to land that small blow leads us to better game against some number of decks. One way is a deadend now with new rules, so we have worse chances against some decks and less good plays in diferent situation.
It's not fatal, but still painfull.
Oh, and you have Vial to sudden-block that x/2 and gain card advantage.
Dunno, maybe it's about my meta where I'm the first regular DnT player, but I used stacking combat damage to my advantage in at least 40% matches. I can't say I win a lot of games on the back of stacking combat damage, but again, most of DnT dudes or tricks doesn't win games all by themselves like, say, Dreadnought do.
So I still think theese rules are an impact on DnT and the deck needs (small) rework to stay in shape.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
@eq.firemind
Funny, Finn had some thoughts about a Gwr-Survival-list in the past (2006). You find the post here.
Quirion Ranger is the most interesting choice, since it provides a nice trick with Mangara (or Sisay ^^), it can give a creature pseudo-vigilance or protects a Savannah/Taiga against Wasteland (or other landdestruction) because it can even target an untapped creature. Not bad for a cc1-creature ;)
Sisay btw. is very slow, but finds pieces and also fetch Umezawa's Jitte... I test it in my build at the moment.
Other thing: Since m10-rules makes the swarmaggro-mu harder, i think Cataclysm is more attractive again.
I've tested Survival list and I just think that typical(
) Survival Adantage is just plain beter.
I tried Survival Taxes and I've found that the most of the time I used Survival just to fetch the right creature. That's why I start playing Living Wish: it do what I want it to do, not mana-intensive (I already have Ports), doesn't require much green and doesn't eat up so many slots (the reason I dismissed Eadamri's Call - I don't want singletons in maindeck). Oh, and Wish searches for both Mangara and Karakas too.
Tabernacle is very nice Tribal-hoser and it also wrecks Dredge.
I'll do more testing when I'll have time and if Gobbs will still be a problem, I'll include 1 wishable Tivadar of Thorn. I also think about including 1 Gaddock Teeg to have a wishable dude for Landstill.
Last edited by eq.firemind; 06-19-2009 at 09:25 AM.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
I must say that I am extremely curious to see how the other decks change omce 2010 drops. I do feel, on the other hand, that D+T really doesn't need to change that much (of course, I am still not using Wasteland + Ports together).
The proposed addition of Living Wish seems like it should really be its own deck. Devoting a turn to wish for an answer, Aether Vial aside, seems like a waste to me. Granted it does open up a few choices in splashing another color, but the dual green mana required appears to stress the mana base a little more than the deck should be able to handle safely.
Actually, in my list is
-1 Mangara
-1 Grunt
-1 Stonecloacker
-2 Avenger
-2 something (like 4th O-Ring or 4th Canonist)
+4 Hierarch
+3 Living Wish
Changed manabase
The core is almost unchanged, the tricks are the same.
It doesn't feel different from playing mono
I said it before and I'll repeat it forever: right dudes in right time win the game. DnT has right dudes for each opponent, but right time (i.e. no search/draw) was always a problem. Now it's not. And with only 2 Karakas and 2 Mangara MD your chances to draw second uneeded legend are very low, but you if you have one part in hand, you have 5 second parts left in your library. Yeah, Wish was a little slow if I had no active Vial. Then I added Noble Hierarch. 4 Vial + 4 Hierarch = consistently good Wish and consistently explosive opening.
1) Only 1 green creature in my SB (Harmonic Sliver).
2) Aether Vial + Noble Hierarch = 8-costed mana and color stabilizers
So I never wanted second
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
Where's the Goyf?
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