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Thread: [Deck] Death and Taxes

  1. #6861
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    @Koke

    I agree with a lot of your post, but I am not bringing in Pithing Needle against Storm to maybe hit one of their fetchlands. Just absolutely no way. Sure, maybe you got someone once with it but it's still horrendous.

    We have better cards against them, and I don't want to draw dead cards against a deck that gives me 1-3 turns to win/adequately lock out.
    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
    Quote Originally Posted by Von View Post
    Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?

  2. #6862

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Koke_MTG View Post
    How much time have you spent testing the nonsensical strategy...? Great!
    I've played legacy seriously as a format continuously since it was called type 1.5, when wasteland and FoW were legal in Extended. I played storm for 2.5 years during its glory days with Mystical Tutors and Sensei's Divining Top. Pithing Needle has been a staple ever since it was spoiled in Kamigawa. It's been heavily tested in many decks since then, and no one did it to me to any memorable effect, and I've never thought it a sound strategy to the point that testing it was ever a consideration.

    I'm not insulting you. Long, meaningful, well-articulated posts are great, and a pleasure to read, but not every post needs to be that. Also, expecting people on the Internet to give responses that aren't crass or brash is unreasonable. Don't take it so hard. That's my opinion.

    It was a little nitpick about your personal boarding decisions. Let it go.

  3. #6863

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    On a different note: Has anybody seriously tested Palace Jailer yet, at least as a SB card? I'm very intestered in actual playtesting results, not just dismissive handwaving because it costs 4 mana.
    Dismissive handwaving........ ok now that that is out of the way this does look really neat i just don't want to change too many things all at once. (I'll try to come back to it in a few months? )

    Talking out of my ass here but maybe it would fit in a mono white stompy with stax, moat, and all that jazz.

  4. #6864

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Sanctum Prelate brought me back to this deck and since I have been following this thread for years I figured I would add data to all of the testing you guys are doing in trying to figure out the numbers. I played in 3 different tournaments since picking it up, in total i went: 11-5-1 (the last 1 was an ID) and done some playtesting as well. The deck changed some between tournaments.

    Sanctum Prelate: love playing chalice so I played two in the main and two in the board. Sometimes it just makes it so your opponent can't win. 4 in the main after boarding showed me I needed more beaters. The problem with my small testing is that you really don't see how good it is, since the effect is that your opponent is not playing some of the cards. I tried asking whenever I remembered. In the end I felt like I needed more beaters and make place for Recruiter so I kept the two in the board and went up to two Mirran Crusaders. Frequently boarded it in. For another tournament I would consider running it main again. Getting it out early could just stop Bedlam Delver (UR Delver) in its tracks.

    THC, well, you guys have played with it a while. I ran 3 through out all of the tournaments. I would say depending on your meta I could see an argument for 2, but 3 was perfect for me. Also, I was a bit lucky and in total went 3-0 against miracles and THC did its part (as well as sanctum prelate).

    Recruiter of the guard: played with one in the main and one in the board initially, barely saw it and was quite unhappy with it. Just didn't do anything for me . Frequently boarded it out as it was the odd man out. Increased to two and it was great. I am thinking that going to 3 and decreasing flickerwisp to 3 could be the right call, that is what I would test after this.

    The 2 drop slot is interesting as a part from Thalia 1.0 and SfM I really don't want to run something there. I've never really liked phyrexian revoker so this time I removed the two I was running during the first 2 tournaments and kept the lone 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth. I boarded it out for a Prelate many times. I lacked a 2 drop few times, especially for Vial. The positive was that I never thought I needed to leave Vial on 2 because of this. I would like to cut SotL and one THC to add 2 Prelate, but the 2 drop slot will suffer and it doesn't make sense from a deck building perspective. But boy is Prelate so good!

    I won 4/4 games vs Bedlam Delver, that is an intense and fun match where if you draw Sanctum Prelate in time, you are in for a treat. One game was won due to my opponent flipping Smash to Smithereens and me naming 2 for Prelate. Apparently he had one more/drew his second and was waiting for me to play jitte. I don't recall having any protection for Prelate, but I felt like I was ok as my opponent had played a bunch of "chain-lightning-bolt" before.

    So the losses... I think one of the most skill intensive aspects of playing this deck is to know when to mulligan and have the courage and experience to do so. I think this is in part an issue with the deck. I always try to envision the best hand I can mulligan to when I need some of that courage. Usually I think of this cards: Plains, plains, SfM, Thalia 1.0. It survives a wasteland assault and I have 2 great things to do on turn 2 and 3.

    4 Wasteland
    4 Rishadan Port
    2 Cavern of Souls
    3 Karakas
    10 Plains

    4 Mother of Runes
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
    4 Flickerwisp
    3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
    2 Mirran Crusader
    2 Recruiter of the Guard

    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Aether Vial
    1 Batterskulle
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice

    Sideboard
    2 Council's Judgement (when I need more removal post board on anything but the one thing Prelate will mention, dread of night removal, true name removal (which I barely saw), mirror match for equipment and other stuff)
    2 Spatial Contortion (same as above with Prelate, especially against UR, also the mirror vs moms, Grixis, would probably go down to 1 now)
    2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar (with Sanctum to bring in vs Miracles and all the other cards I could consider going down to 1, against -1-effects and Miracles)
    2 Ethersworn Canonist (saw no evil, so they stayed in the sideboard)
    2 Rest in Piece (saw no real reason to bring this in most of the time, brought in 1-2 against BUG as Goyf-pseudo removal and Deathrite hate, 1 versus Bedlam Delver)
    2 Cataclysm (difficult card to play and difficult to fit in with both Gideon and Sanctum fighting for spots)
    2 Sanctum Prelate
    1 Pithing Needle (great versus Thespian's Stage, without Enlightened Tutor I would consider running two if you want it)
    Last edited by ratninja; 09-18-2016 at 04:34 PM. Reason: Edited sideboard

  5. #6865

  6. #6866
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Don Donelson, 13th Place

    3 Phyrexian Revoker
    4 Flickerwisp
    3 Mother of Runes
    2 Recruiter of the Guard
    2 Sanctum Prelate
    2 Serra Avenger
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

    4 Aether Vial
    1 Batterskull
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Umezawa's Jitte

    9 Plains
    2 Cavern of Souls
    1 Horizon Canopy
    4 Rishadan Port
    4 Wasteland
    3 Karakas

    Sideboard
    1 Pithing Needle
    3 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Containment Priest
    3 Rest in Peace
    2 Path to Exile
    2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
    2 Council's Judgment
    This looks like a pretty reasonable approach, I still think keeping some number of Serra Avenger is more correct than not, because Flying + Equipment is just too good to throw by the way-side. When I get a chance, I will be trying out a list much like this one.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  7. #6867

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    This looks like a pretty reasonable approach, I still think keeping some number of Serra Avenger is more correct than not, because Flying + Equipment is just too good to throw by the way-side. When I get a chance, I will be trying out a list much like this one.
    Really like the list also, except I miss a 1 or 2 Mirran Crusader, the cards is such a beater.
    I am on same MB now, with 1 Crusader and 1 Avenger, not sure if I am gonna keep it or chance it.

  8. #6868
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    @Medea_ how has 2 karakas been for you? i like the idea of dropping down to 2, but im not really sure if it's worth it

  9. #6869
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Farone View Post
    Really like the list also, except I miss a 1 or 2 Mirran Crusader, the cards is such a beater.
    I am on same MB now, with 1 Crusader and 1 Avenger, not sure if I am gonna keep it or chance it.
    It might be correct, or alright, in a sense, to go -1 THC and +1 Crusader if you expect lots of GB/X decks.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  10. #6870

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    @deucegg
    I like two just fine. I'm working on my write up for my interview with Don Donelson, but he wants to try two as well.

  11. #6871

  12. #6872
    Force of Will is my bitch
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Medea_ View Post
    "...down to two Karakas like I have been experimenting with. He believes that many of the matchups where Karakas is “necessary” are already so good that trimming one Karakas probably doesn’t matter that much. Reanimator and Sneak and Show are already great matchups, so it may been worth hedging in different directions to improve other matchups."

    This is a solid point. I have been using four Karakas and never liked the effect of going to three. But with Sanctum Prelate and Thalia, Heretic Cathar now, I really feel like we have the cheat-creatures-onto-the-battlefield decks backed into a corner. I think I am ready to make the switch to three - and this is why.
    "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
    "Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
    "Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
    "Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."

  13. #6873
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    I tossed two Avengers back in the deck for our Legacy night tomorrow and went back down to two Caverns as a result. I considered dropping to two Karakas as well but I only have 10 Tempest Plains and having one not matching just won't do

    If it goes well I'll post a quickie report and deck list (I'm giving a new Sword a try as well), and if it doesn't...well...I guess I'll explain why!

  14. #6874

    Re: [Deck]Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguine Voyeur View Post
    I think it should be noted that when using Mangara on your opponent's turn, you activate it, your opponent gets priority, then you can bounce it.
    your opponent gets priority regardless if it's their turn or not after you activate Mangara.

  15. #6875

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    @Finn
    I really enjoyed chatting with Don. He had many similar ideas to my own, but articulated them in a different way than what I had been doing. Especially on the Serra Avenger front, he helped me solidify some of the decisions that I had been on the fence about for the past few days. I've got another interview lined up with Arnaud Aubert for next week's article, and I'm looking forward to hearing his thoughts as well.

    @drocker23
    So the comment you replied to was from like 2007, just fyi.

  16. #6876
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    Re: [Deck]Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by drocker23 View Post
    your opponent gets priority regardless if it's their turn or not after you activate Mangara.
    For the sake of clarity, here's the sequence of events as far as priority, regardless of whose turn:
    1. Activate Mangara.
    2. You still have priority, let's assume you pass for some reason.
    3. Opponent gets priority. If opponent passes, Mangara activation resolves and exiles himself and the target.

    Now, if your opponent has no response (which you might not know) then your only chance to save Mangara from exiling himself is in step 2.
    If your opponent does have a response, and you passed in step 2, then they get priority again after whatever spell/ability they used, followed by you regaining priority, giving you another chance to save Mangara.

    There's only two situations in which the active player gains priority first, either a new phase of the turn started, or something just resolved. If a player adds something to the stack, they can retain priority to add more 'in response' to whatever they just did. More often than not it's just assumed that people don't retain priority.

    If only there was some playable effect in white/land/artifact that let you see the opponent's hand... That'd be useful for Prelate too.

  17. #6877

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Finally got around to testing with new DNT last night. Played around 20 games against a gauntlet of legacy decks just to get a feel for the new cards.


    My key takeaways:

    - Prelate is amazing and such ends the game on the spot sometimes (especially when protected by Mom). Vialing it in which allows essentially no response is just lights out and leaves so many cards stranded. I think I want 4 in the deck just so that my odds of turn 3 are as high as possible.

    - Recruiter is good; but not great. It's a little slow and definitely doesn't have the same impact on the board that a beater or Prelate would; Recruiter makes me want more great 2 drops in the deck since a lot of times my best line would be a Turn 3 recruiter (off of Cavern) to then activate my Vial (which would be on 2) to put the hatebear in ( Thalia or Revoker) or stoneforge...

    - THC was .... meh.... in my testing. Could've been the match-ups but I felt like getting her online on turn 4 (say after recruiting for her) just didn't do enough; and even on 3 she was a little underwhelming... has First strike but on the ground is outclasses by Goyfs and the Eldrazi.

    - I have been only playing 2 equipments in the main (SoFI and Jitte) but found myself missing Batterskull just as another tutorable "creature" that the deck could go and fetch.

    - Flickerwisp with recruiter is as good as it was in Imperial... and with no Serra Avengers a must-have at 3 or more...

    - The deck is definitely much less a beat down deck.. I definitely missed having 2+ mirran crusaders and 2-3 Serra Avengers. It really has become more Taxes and less Death with the recruiter/prelate build.

    This is where my list has ended up...


    4 Mother of Runes
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    3 Stoneforge Mystic
    3 Flickerwisp
    2 Phyrexian Revoker
    1 Mirran Crusader
    1 Vryn's Wingmare
    4 Sanctum Prelate
    3 Recruiter of the Guard
    1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

    1 Sword of Fire and Ice
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Batterskull
    4 Aether Vial
    4 Swords to Plowshares

    3 Karakas
    4 Rishadan Port
    4 Wasteland
    9 Plains
    3 Cavern of Souls


    Could see shaving the Wingmare (which I like as just another flyer to help with the lack of Avengers) for another 2-drop like the 4th SFM or a MD ethersworn canonist just to maximize the T3 recruiter->vial-in 2-drop.

  18. #6878

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Hello,
    I pretty much agree with everything Koke_MTG wrote about card selection and reviews. I have been testing the new cards in the last 4 small local tournaments. Being small tournaments i know what decks will show up and i build the deck based in that. Altough here are some thoughts about my experience and opinion:

    - Regarding the number of copies of Flickerwisp i totally agree with Koke_MTG. I would play 6 copies if i could. Everytime i think i could cut one copy, i think in every game of magic i play with D&T and just abandon the idea.

    - The number of Mother's i think it is a meta call, but in my meta i still play 4 copies.

    - THC should definitely be played in at least 3 copies. I was playing 2 copies with 2 recruiters. Either you play it in turn 3 or it won't have the impact we need later. It won me some games where i landed her in 3rd turn but most of the time, saving the lands to play an equipment was the best option for turn 3 and she ended up in my hand for some turns. I think i never recruited for her too. I will probably just remove her from my 75.

    - Recruiter is definitely a good late game bomb. I was playing 2 copies. Most of the time i didn't want to see him early turns because it would delay my game. But late game he can give you what you need and i also enjoyed the extra bodie for equipments or just chump block.

    - Prelate is definitely the best adition to the deck. It is the most difficult new card to play because you need to have a very good knowledge of everydeck in the format. I think he has more impact in game 2 and 3 because it can shut opponent's sideboard (those scary -1/-1, 2 damage to all, etc) cards. In game 1 he can do some work too. I will be playing 2 copies in the main and maybe one in sideboard.

    - Regarding Avenger, i just can't cut below 2 copies. It is just too powerfull and wins games.


    MY LIST AT THE MOMENT:
    LANDS
    9 Plains
    3 Karakas
    4 Wasteland
    4 Rishadan Port
    2 Cavern of Souls
    1 Horizon Canopy


    CREATURES
    4 Flickerwisp
    4 Mother of Runes
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    3 Phyrexian Revoker
    2 Recruiter of the Guard
    2 Serra Avenger
    2 Sanctum Prelate
    1 Mirran Crusader



    SPELLS
    4 AEther Vial
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Umezawa's Jitte
    1 Batterskull
    1 Sword of Fire and Ice


    SIDEBOARD
    3 Ethersworn Canonist
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Rest in Peace
    1 Relic of Progenitus
    2 Council's Judgment
    1 Path to Exile
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Banisher Priest
    1 Mankiri-Gusari
    1 Sanctum Prelate

  19. #6879

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Thoughts on the red splash?

    When the Imperial Recruiter/Magus of the Moon lists started appearing, I had found it really interested and put together a list once I could get my hands on Recruiters. However, with Recruiter of the Guard, there isn't the need to splash Red in order to have a tutor.

    However, I wanted to re-open the question of the red splash for Magus of the Moon. I've developed the following list based on the trend of recent lists post-RotG, and to get the full value from the red splash.

    4 Thalia GoT
    4 Mother of Runes
    4 Flickerwisp
    3 Stoneforge Mystic
    2 Recruiter of the Guard
    2 Phyrexian Revoker
    2 Thalia HC
    1 Mirran Crusader
    1 Magus of the Moon
    1 Grim Lavamancer
    1 Sanctum Prelate
    1 Anax and Cymede

    4 Aether Vial
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Batterskull
    1 SoFaI
    1 Jitte

    3 Plains
    5 Fetches
    2 Plateau
    4 Wasteland
    4 Rishadan Port
    2 Cavern of Souls
    3 Karakas

    Explanatory notes about the build: At the height of the red splash interest, Finn once mentioned the following about Grim Lavamancer:

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    It undoubtedly does what this deck wants. Fuel for the Lavamancer is always going to be the issue. I doubt it can be profitably run in this deck.
    Grim Lavamancer is included in this list as an unintuitive late-game finisher. This doesn't have the tempo/value accumulation that it can have in Burn or a blue deck with cantrips. However: dodges Dread of Night, is as capable a body as any for equipment, and has its best value as a 1-of or 2-of removal spell. It gains incidental value from fetches/wastelands, and its functions as a finisher by being better as the game goes longer, especially after creature combats. It can't go above a Moat the same way that Pia and Kiran Nalaar + Karakas could, but it has late-game power much like it has in Burn.

    The second inclusion was Anax and Cymede. Its inclusion was taken from a quote by Phil's Interview with Don Donelson:

    Quote Originally Posted by Medea_ View Post
    Interview with Don Donelson

    ... Don believes that one of the greatest strengths of D&T is the ability to fluidly switch back and forth between the aggressor and the control role. Without a card like Avenger to help make that transition easier, it can be pretty easy to walk a little too far down the path of hard control. When that happens, you may find your board is stalled with a bunch of bears that just can’t break board parity.
    Admittedly, a legendary creature that costs (instead of 2) and doesn't have Flying is only an ersatz Serra Avenger, but it has some of the similar power to break board parity--especially when equipped--and at a speed that's much faster than Mangara. (I agree with the idea all lists have of dropping Mangara: while the current metagame is very fair, it's also very fast). Vigilance and First Strike make it a two-way card, and the 3 power gives it clock parity.

    A&C's Heroic rules text might even be occasionally useful in the real corner case scenario where you have it, Mom, and another creature, and you: Target it with Swords, hold priority, actiate Mom to give it protection from White, Heroic trigger--and then overwhelm the opponent's board.

    ...

    I'm curious for any thoughts before I start testing it. The strength of being able to lockout Lands and Aggro loam seems very strong, in addition to Magus of the Moon giving real power against Eldrazi. My concerns are that the mini-toolbox might make it less consistent overall (especially with only 2 Recruiter), and slower than mono-White.

    Does anybody have any feedback on the strategic construction of this build?

  20. #6880

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Anax and Cymede would really be best if you ran cards like Blessed Alliance, God's Willing or things like that. Doing things like that would likely water down the deck and I likely would not want to use a Mother of Runes just to spend a Swords to Plowshares for the Heroic trigger. Not sure if it is a great idea but definitely deserves testing since the pump and trample could be relevant. It means a Batterskull could crash through a TNN and still get 4 damage through in a racing situation.

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