I'm sure you are right about the game state issues. I want to impress upon you the idea that our opponents are the ones who need mana more than we do when it comes to Winter Orb. We cast bigger spells, but need fewer of them. Also, 1-sided Winter Orbs are fun. Try Hokori, Dust Drinker with Karakas for laughs.Originally Posted by ksmith
On another note, funny you should bring up Cataclysm...
You are right that Winter Orb actually does not do the deck in by itself, or even close. But it does exactly what I need it to - and it is the best card for the job.
When my local meta became infested with 12-Post I turned to Winter Orb because I could tutor for the single copy for a turn 2 deployment. It buys me a few turns. Before I had Orb, I would get blown out by a fast Show and Tell. These days, it is more like ramp into Green Sun's Zenith, but the idea is the same. That way, I can drag the game out, forcing the opponent to commit many extra lands because of the Orb and whatever land disruption I draw into. I can actually get to turn four or five that way. And it makes Cataclysm effective enough that I can actually win. 12-Post is a freakin hard matchup for D+T. This is the one strategy I found to eke out some victories.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
She dominates RUG. Dominates. --> ok
She is very hard on Shardless, though not quite as oppressive. --> Mirran Crusader is better
She is very hard on Eldrazi. --> ok, but Mirran Crusader is almost equally as good, doesn't drop dead against Warping Wail and Dismember and with a equipment will no-brain in this matchup
She is very hard on Lands. --> Prelate on 2 is harder. Punishing Fire is still a thing.
She is decent against Miracles (I side 1 out) --> Prelate is better
She is pertinent against Elves, and if you actually get to turn 3, she is the best 3-drop we have or could reasonably have. --> Can't argue with that, but even here I think I'd prefer Mirran Crusader. I often try to curve SFM into Mirran into Jitte-equip, which can win if the opponent isn't faster and isn't blanked by Symbiote.
So honestly, I think Thalia, Heretic Cathar is a fine card, but in most matchups it won't have as much impact as Mirran Crusader in BUG matchups or Prelate against Miracles (Mother of Runes plus Prelate on 6 is absolutely insane).
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
Comparing Frank to different creatures in different scenarios leads nowhere.
That being said, your arguments are so so:
* Against Elves: Frank has immediate impact when hitting the board, while MC needs an additional turn and really only shines when equipped, so we're talking a two card combo...
* Against Eldrazi: "Dies to an at best two-off removal spell", is more less meaningless, nuff said.
Frank is definitely better against Elves, but against Eldrazi, a 3/2 first strike is barely any different from a 2/1 first strike. Frank can't profitably attack or block past anything but their smallest creatures.
Crusader profitably (since the card you lost is a sunk cost) trades with TKS. And while Frank works well with equipment, Crusader combines better with equipment - which is how we win, rather than 'don't lose as fast' - not just due to the double strike, but also because you can *safely* equip it without worrying about instant speed removal (outside of the rarely played Spatial Distortion.) Sure they don't always have the Dismember, but when they do spend 1 mana to counter the 7-9 mana you spent casting a 3 drop + getting an equipment in play + equipping, you generally aren't gonna win that game.
That's absolutely incorrect, it kills and lives through combat against Reality Smasher.
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It prevents a hasty Reality Smasher from coming in for 5 its first turn, but it also makes them less likely to go all-in in combat because they can't drop another blocker post-combat, as it will just come in tapped.
...and their lands. Are we really discussing the merits of THC vs. Mirran Crusader without bothering to discuss the entirety of the text on the cards?
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
So Frank is good if your opponent has a Reality Smasher, just not in play already. And it's good at blocking Reality Smashers, as long as you have other cards that are also good in play, and also they don't have removal. I am not saying these situations don't happen, I'm saying they aren't things you can count on. Mirran Crusader is going to consistently do 2 things: Not die to their best removal spell, trade with a TKS.
So eldrazi has no draw and plays only ~4 removal spells? Jitte being the scariest of course, Warping Wail has no merit in a conversation discussing a 3/2 or a 2/2, and Dismember? Am I missing something? I feel like this conversation is bunk. I'm playing a 2/1 split of thalia2/mirran crusader, and I prefer the thalia2 with a Jitte. Between first strike and jitte counters, she kills/lives through combat of every eldrazi not named world breaker, and ig endbringer depending on the scenario. I understand that mirran crusader is the faster clock with equipment, but so far it feels like the come into play tapped on their lands, creatures is more helpful.
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You prefer the creature with a Jitte that is objectively a worse creature with a Jitte?
That is not even partly true. (EDIT: I mean the "objectively" bit - naturally, Mirran Crusader is better in some scenarios) I am going to kill Reality Smasher if my opponent forgets about first strike and attacks into THC holding a Jitte. Crusader can do the same but it dies.
And board states where you have both Thalia in play is better. Although I have already been burned when removal is involved. That really stinks, in fact, to the point that I am not sure I will make the block in the future, unless I have Karakas handy. The question is how much balz my opponent has attacking into that front line.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Crusader survives Reality Smasher with a Jitte as well. Give itself +4/+4 with two Jitte counters off first strike, same as THC.
If they attack into a Mirran Crusader with a Jitte:
First strike Damage - 2 damage to Reality Smasher, 2 counters on Jitte. Pump Crusader twice, now it's a 6/6.
Regular damage - 6 more to Reality Smasher (dies), 5 to Crusader (lives), 2 more Jitte counters.
If they attack into Frank with a Jitte:
First strike Damage - 3 damage to Reality Smasher, 2 counters on Jitte. Pump Frank twice if you want him to live.
Regular damage - Reality Smasher does 5 to Frank.
I do like the 'opponent forgets that first strike...exists...and makes a terrible attack' as a requirement for these scenarios as it's conceivably something an Eldrazi player would do.
Not the same. Though it does work out the same in essence. I think I am going to reverse myself here. It's hard to beat double strike with a Jitte.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Right Iatee, about the forget part. But that is not what I was leaning on. I just had not thought it through.
On another note folks, I am for the first time using Mirran Crusaders in the sideboard. (It seems like a strong sb card for creature matches to me in the place of extra removal.) In fact, I have not been using them since just before Treasure Cruise. I think I will be bringing them in versus Eldrazi, though I have not had to make the decision yet. Does this all seem reasonable? I wanted to use Chained to the Rocks (great against Reality Smasher) if I ever got around to going imperial, but I am not ready to adopt Path to Exile.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
I think you forget that before the 5 damage happens to THC that the 2 Jitte counters can hit the smasher and kill it before it does damage rather than just pumped THC. Meaning you have killed the threat and still have a THC with a jitte.
Yep you're right, I was too entrenched in the pump math.
And Finn, yeah playing at least 1 Crusader in your 75 is even more important now that you're playing Recruiters, since you can always fetch it vs a B/G deck. Also playing Prelates means that you're increasing the number of terrible g1 cards against Eldrazi, so people should be adjusting their SBs accordingly and ensuring they have enough removal / random big dudes / other stuff that's anti-Eldrazi to bring in.
I've been toying with a Ghost Quarter in the board as another card that's good against Eldrazi while not being too narrow.
I was only implying "the same" as in they both survive, as iatee elaborated further.
I am really on the fence for this conversation. I love Mirran Crusader but THC having large creatures come into play tapped give you extra combats without the need to worry about them, it also gives you extra combats to be ready for something like a Reality Smasher. In the Eldrazi Match up I prefer THC for the disruption, but Mirran crusader will always be the king of combat especially equipped. They're both really good and I think it really comes down to preference. Mirran Crusader with a Batterskull equipped is the dream there.
Nm, my math was off. Wrong again, Frylock!
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