[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Finn]

Nm, my math was off. Wrong again, Frylock!

Lol!
That makes at least three of us who screwed up the details.

Honestly though, we have many more choices now than ever before with regard to creature selection. It is rather necessary for us to be having these discussions and thankfully keep it civil.

I want to get opinions though. I said I was going to keep 2x Mirran Crusader in the side in place of Path to Exile (or some other alternative). The Paths are really for Delver of Secrets mostly, I think. But I want to have creature cards able to bring in rather than spells if possible. I want to lock Delver decks down with Prelate if I can, after all. And that would make Paths uncomfortable. I am certain that there is a good argument for using Path anyway. But I would like to hear about it. In particular, I have been considering Lieutenant Kirtar, perhaps in place of the Banisher Priest coming in off the board or one of those Crusaders. I have never tested it, and Flickerwisp always seemed to be better. Opinions?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I've already run into the problem of dropping Prelate on 1 against Grixis only to have them plop down an Angler, while I stare wistfully at a StP sitting in my hand.

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[iatee]

Paths and Prelate are - in theory - a nonbo, but if you are cursed with drawing all of your good cards against Delver, you probably can find a way to win. I have found my 3 Paths + 3 Prelates post-board matchup against Delver to be absurdly lopsided. You just deal with literally every threat they have, and eventually cast one they can't deal with.

It's possible for you to jam a Prelate and then get run over by creatures because you drew 3 STPs. But what's going to happen more often is you lose to a fast tempo start before you had the chance to seal up the game with Prelate. On that level they're not a non-bo - one of them lets you live, the other one is basically a win-con, because once we're both topdecking and only playing creatures, we play more and better creatures.

While I also prefer my SB cards to always be in creature form - this is far more important now for you guys now, having joined the Recruiter party - there really is no replacement for 1 mana unconditional removal. Path is also good against Eldrazi, Lands, Reanimator, DnT, Burn - and most importantly, Infect, which is one of the few bad matchups that I think you can really turn into a good matchup with your board.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Sure, and I didn't lose, but it was pretty close.

Having said that, I definitely appreciate the idea of Banisher Priest a lot more now. I'll probably pick one or two up and try like hell to wiggle one in, but slots are impossibly tight.

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[Poron]

Afterlife and Celestial Purge are cards you might want to consider

[Luca Grease]

I somewhat erased my unlucky showing at Tarmogeddon by 5-0ing my local legacy league, then losing in top 4. I beat U/R Prowess (twice, 2-1 2-1), DnT (2-1), B/R Reanimator (2-0), and BUG Depths (2-1), and lost to U/R in top4 (0-2, same player I beat in round 5)

List:

4x: Mom, TGT, SFM
3x: Flickerwisp, Recruiter
2x: Revoker, THC, Prelate
1x: Spirit, Mangara

11 standard noncreature spells

8 Plains
4 Wastes
4 Port
2 Cavern
1 Flagstones
1 Eiganjo's Castle

SB:
2 Canonist
1 CP
1 Leonin
1 Banisher Priest
1 Mirran
1 Faerie Macabre
2 RiP
1 Gideon
2 Path
1 Wail
1 Judgement
1 Cataclysm

- Against U/R, Prelate was definitely the top performing card, winning 2 games almost single-handedly. This is probably the delver deck that Prelate is strongest against, since unlike those playing Tarmogoyf/Angler, their creatures really don't do much if they can't cast their spells. My loss in top 4 was pretty unavoidable: a combination of mulligans, mediocre draws, and a fast clock on their part, but overall I went 2-1 against the deck and I think that the match-up is pretty even.

- THC was instrumental in beating BUG depths (obviously), and solid against U/R Delver, preventing him from casting Bedlam Reveler in time and just generally screwing up with his tempo. She was also good in the mirror, although at that point I was already in a winning position. I'd like to point out that she won a game after being tutored (against BUG) and was still crippling against U/R even though she came down on turn 4 or later, thus proving that the much repeated mantras of "you'll never tutor for her" and "she's just a 3/2 beater after turn 3" are, in fact, bs.

- The Reanimator MU was probably the hardest one (the all-in B/R version is quite a bit stronger against us the the classic U/B one as it eschews consistency and resiliency in favor of pure speed). I got a bit lucky in g1, ripping a StP two turns after he T1 sire of Insanity'ed. In g2, he had an early Tidespout Tyrant but couldn't quite lock me out of the game with it due to Thalia and him having only 2 lands. He tried to seal the deal by Reanimating an Iona, but I had drawn a Containment Priest in the meantime ("take 9, your fatty is exiled"), and that obviously turned the game around. I eventually got rid of the Tyrant and swung for lethal.


Oh, and to those arguing that Crusader is better than THC against Eldrazi: please stop, you're embarrassing yourselves with the Dismember argument. That would hold some water if Crusader could actually hold the fort by himself, but since that's not the case, you're still gonna be screwed when they dismember your other instrumental creature. On the other hand, THC is probably the best 3-drop you can have against a deck composed entirely of hasty creatures and nonbasic lands. Seriously, we shouldn't even be discussing this. I get it, you guys think that THC is a meta-dependent option and not a staple of the deck. We can agree to disagree, but blatantly flawed and partial arguments are not gonna make your position more convincing...

[mykatdied]

Oh, and to those arguing that Crusader is better than THC against Eldrazi: please stop, you're embarrassing yourselves with the Dismember argument. That would hold some water if Crusader could actually hold the fort by himself, but since that's not the case, you're still gonna be screwed when they dismember your other instrumental creature. On the other hand, THC is probably the best 3-drop you can have against a deck composed entirely of hasty creatures and nonbasic lands. Seriously, we shouldn't even be discussing this. I get it, you guys think that THC is a meta-dependent option and not a staple of the deck. We can agree to disagree, but blatantly flawed and partial arguments are not gonna make your position more convincing...

Many people have agreed that the enters tapped aspect of THC is great against a deck running Reality Smasher. Although many people have advocated that Crusader is better with equipment which is part of the necessary elements to beat Eldrazi. But the deck isn't full of hasty creatures, it only has 4 in the form of the aforementioned Smashers. While personally I prefer THC over crusader for that reason, I also can submit that once you pair equipment on either creature that Crusader tends to be the better option on defense or offense given that double strike really goes a long way with a Jitte or a Sword. The benefit of THC with equipment is obviously more defensive as having 3 power with first strike actually matches a Smasher better since we can avoid our opponent getting counters on a Jitte whereas Crusader can't stop that on its own unless it is suited up with a battering ram.

[iatee]

Oh, and to those arguing that Crusader is better than THC against Eldrazi: please stop, you're embarrassing yourselves with the Dismember argument. That would hold some water if Crusader could actually hold the fort by himself, but since that's not the case, you're still gonna be screwed when they dismember your other instrumental creature. On the other hand, THC is probably the best 3-drop you can have against a deck composed entirely of hasty creatures and nonbasic lands. Seriously, we shouldn't even be discussing this. I get it, you guys think that THC is a meta-dependent option and not a staple of the deck. We can agree to disagree, but blatantly flawed and partial arguments are not gonna make your position more convincing...

Their deck has 4 haste creatures in it, and yes it is good against those 4 creatures, for exactly one turn. The best 3 drop against a deck with no basic lands is Magus. Crusader certainly can 'hold down the fort' on his own with any equipment and equipping a Crusader is a play that's very hard for them to disrupt in any way.

Ultimately we all need to just play with these cards more, I don't think anyone's solved anything at this point. Even at this point I've been playing with a copy of Frank in my deck. It has been mediocre/bad for me fairly frequently and game-winning fairly infrequently. And my suspicion is still that people mentally discount the games where he's mediocre because he used to go by the name Thalia.

Nobody's said he's useless after t3 or that you'll never tutor for him. He just loses potency very quickly and you'll rarely tutor for him. It's a tempo card that sets us up for lots of situations where we get out-tempo'd by a Karakas/Bolt/Dismember and one of the only 3 drops in the deck that doesn't give you any ability to come back from behind. I like cards that let me win games I was losing more than cards that let me win games I was winning, and you especially want that out of your topdecks and 3 drops.

[Penguinizer]

There's a big Legacy tournament coming up in a few weeks, so I'm scrambling to get my deck in shape. How does the following look:

Lands: 23
7x Plains
4x Wasteland
4x Karakas
3x Rishadan Port
3x Flagstones of Trokair
2x Eiganjo Catle

The usual non-creature spells: 11
4x StP
4x Vial
Jitte, Skull, SoFaI

Creatures: 27
4x Mother of Runes
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Serra Avenger
2x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Flickerwisp
2x Recruiter of the Guard
1x Mangara of Corondor

Sideboard:
3x Rest in Peace
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
2x Council's Judgement
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Mirran Crusader
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
1x Leonin Relic-Warder
1x Mangara of Corondor


I'm not entirely sure about Wilt-Leaf Liege, but I'm not sure about what to put in its place. Banisher Priest maybe? I feel like I need an answer to -1/-1 for white creatures esque effects, but can't think of any sensible ones off the top of my head. Celestial Crusader maybe, but I can't find anything for any sensible amount of mana. Adaptive Automaton on human maybe? Or pumping creatures up with Anafenza, Kin Tree Spirit before it resolves.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I don't really care for Eiganjo Castle. I think its only useful application is protecting a Thalia 2.0 from lightning bolt, and that's fairly lackluster as far as interactions go, especially when Karakas is already a thing. I think 4 ports are really important. Any particular reason you aren't trying out the prelates?

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[Luca Grease]

I don't really care for Eiganjo Castle. I think its only useful application is protecting a Thalia 2.0 from lightning bolt, and that's fairly lackluster as far as interactions go, especially when Karakas is already a thing.
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Yes, I decided to run a singleton Eiganjo castle because I wanted something cute, and the only thing it managed to do was to deal me 2 damage off of Price of Progress. 2 is nonsense. Simply put, it will more often be a liability than an asset. Play 0.

[mykatdied]

Yes, I decided to run a singleton Eiganjo castle because I wanted something cute, and the only thing it managed to do was to deal me 2 damage off of Price of Progress. 2 is nonsense. Simply put, it will more often be a liability than an asset. Play 0.

When forked bolts were running around everywhere it was likely much better then to save a thalia and prevent getting two for oned.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

When forked bolts were running around everywhere it was likely much better then to save a thalia and prevent getting two for oned.

I doubt even then it was a good idea. What deck other than UR Delver plays/played Forked Bolt? The reason I don't think it was a good idea even then is because of the 4x Wasteland. I mean, you could get lucky and just hold the forked bolt off until a.) You win, or b.) They draw wasteland. Honestly, though, it doesn't protect TGT from Lightning bolt or any other red removal spell (other than Pyroclasm, I guess), and even there it only protects 8 creatures at a maximum in a list with ~26 threats. Seems pretty bad. Do what you want, but it's my opinion that the card is bad in this deck and format.

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[MasterBlaster]

I doubt even then it was a good idea. What deck other than UR Delver plays/played Forked Bolt?

RUG Delver. Commonly as a 2-of. Not that it matters.

[Barook]

I know we're kinda overloaded with options right now, but has anybody tested Smuggler's Copter with 1-2 copies?

While it can't be vialed in, it's still dirt cheap, can utilize vialed-in creatures despite their summoning sickness, is evasive, beats for 3, trades with Delver and most importantly, it has card filtering that doesn't even require combat damage (making it much better than Mask of Memory). Especially the last part is intriguing for a deck like D&T that has problems with duplicates and floods/screws, complimenting the more powerful, but slower and more expensive Recruiter (who can also crew the Copter after its job is done). Hard to tell what slot it would take (although my gut feeling tells me it would take Avenger's slot - maybe).

[FeX]

I know we're kinda overloaded with options right now, but has anybody tested Smuggler's Copter with 1-2 copies?

While it can't be vialed in, it's still dirt cheap, can utilize vialed-in creatures despite their summoning sickness, is evasive, beats for 3, trades with Delver and most importantly, it has card filtering that doesn't even require combat damage (making it much better than Mask of Memory). Especially the last part is intriguing for a deck like D&T that has problems with duplicates and floods/screws, complimenting the more powerful, but slower and more expensive Recruiter (who can also crew the Copter after its job is done). Hard to tell what slot it would take (although my gut feeling tells me it would take Avenger's slot - maybe).

if you try to squeeze in 1-2 copter copies it is definitely in the avenger spot. ive thought about it as well for the reasons you outlined above and i might try some.

[bruizar]

if you try to squeeze in 1-2 copter copies it is definitely in the avenger spot. ive thought about it as well for the reasons you outlined above and i might try some.

What I believe is frequently overlooked is that Copter also loots on defense.

[colo]

It does, however, cost 3 with an active (non-Frank) Thalia. I like how it gives Recruiter more purpose after it finished its trigger-duty, but I'm afraid it won't cut it, because it doesn't do enough on its own.

[Warden]

Copter looks like a win-more or unneeded card. For it to do anything, you need to have additional guys willing to tap. I'm not sure how this improves upon just running Avenger (vigilance trumps Copter here) or simply another creature. Most of your team is attacking anyway (not sure who "drives" Copter in this case and mom doesn't want to tap unless you're using her ability. If you remove the flavor, this card is a pseudo Sword of Mask of Memory -- but I think you're in quite the winning condition if you have spare dudes to tap for it. The card also fails to break parity. Unlike an actual equipment (what I'm comparing it to), Copter cannot be tutored for with SFM and has a lower ceiling than Jitte/Sword of X&Y/Batterskull.

I'm not sold on using SFM or Recruiter to "drive" the ship either. I'd rather send them off to war with real equipment.

[Barook]

It does, however, cost 3 with an active (non-Frank) Thalia. I like how it gives Recruiter more purpose after it finished its trigger-duty, but I'm afraid it won't cut it, because it doesn't do enough on its own.

Everything you said there could also be applied to Jitte.

The only difference is that it can't be fetched with SFM.