[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Sure:

3 MoR
3 Revoker
3 SFM
4 TGT
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Mangara
2 Prelate
3 Recruiter OTG
3 Flickerwisp

1 Jitte
1 SoFI
1 Batterskull
4 Vial
4 StP
2 Mox Diamond

4 wasteland
4 port
3 Cavern
3 Karakas
2 Flagstones
1 Canopy
6 Plains

61 cards.

Sb:
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 THC
1 Magus of the Moon
2 PtE
2 CJ
3 RIP
1 Fiendslayer Paladin
2 Canonist
1 Prelate

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[FeX]

how has mox diamond been working out for you? do you think it was worth it so far?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So far so good, I guess. I just started playing this deck so I don't have a lot to compare it to.

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[contra]

Hey I had posted previously asking if anyone had any advice for beating eldrazi - Is it just a poor match-up? I'd really appreciate any advice on how to beat them - It's just so hard when they curve into mimic - TKS - smasher, I just can't seem to beat them. Thanks in advance.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I play 2x THC in the board, and this IMHO is one of her best matchups. Wasteland is great, and I have 2 PtE in my sideboard along with 2 CJ and a Banisher Priest. I'm pretty sure it's correct to board out Mom here, maybe more questionable if you see Dismember game 1, but even then maybe it's fine. Flickerwisping TKS, Chalice, or large Endless One is pretty good, especially if there's a way to get some damage in that turn as well when you target TKS, because sometimes that swing plus the added 3 power of flying the next turn allows you to race them. Remember combat tricks like blocking with Thalia and then Karakasing it back. Batterskull helps stabilize. I find Jitte to be close to terrible, but I don't have enough experience to say that I'm right. If Eldrazi becomes more dominant locally, I'll test out a singleton Crackdown in the board.

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[Luca Grease]

I find Jitte to be close to terrible, but I don't have enough experience to say that I'm right.

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You're wrong :P

Jitte is actually pretty good against Eldrazi, it will swat mimics like flies and quickly let even your smallest creatures outclass their large monsters.
Moms should be sided out for this MUs, along with as many Thalias as possible. The first strike is good but the rules text is probably a net negative considering you're bringing in most of your noncreature sideboard spells.

[iatee]

Yeah, Jitte is great, it's cheap so you can hardcast it quickly and all of the modes are relevant.

Prelates are also bad. Thalia 1.0 is okay as an early blocker / good equipment target, so I don't mind having >0 - I think the real reason to sb her out is that you don't want the card disadvantage of drawing multiples when it isn't even that great to begin with.

The thing I realized about Eldrazi is that it's sometimes comparable to playing against t1 combo - they have some essentially unbeatable draws and when you lose to those you just have to suck it up and accept that we've agreed to play a format where your opponent can put 20 sol lands in their deck. The key is winning the games that you can win - and there are plenty. I think the matchup is 50-50 if you respect Eldrazi with your sideboard. Since many of the games you lose are out of your control so when you lose to Mimic->TKS->Smasher it feels worse than a 50-50 matchup - you don't get the chance to play yourself out of that situation, even if your opponent is terrible.

On the other hand, Eldrazi generally gives up some free wins to its opponent when it has clunky draws.

I think putting one Crackdown or whatever in your board probably does less than you'd want it to because there's a 40% chance they have turn 2 TKS to take it anyway - and that's if you even happen to have it. If you are on an E tutor plan, your sideboard tech is now soft to Chalice. So I think you just want a bunch of generally good cards - fast removal, more land destruction, bigger creatures, Banisher Priests, Relic Warders to eat Chalices/Jittes etc. rather than some silver bullet. That said, Magus is a pretty good silver bullet.

[Fry]

I honestly bring in my Ethersworn Canonists in from the board against Eldrazi, I know that seems weird, but it relegates the threats to 1 per turn, and that can be huge, I have also put in 2 Path to Exile to help with the number of critters they have. I also play Magus of the Moon main in my Imperial Taxes list as a 3 of, so that really helps too.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Yeah, Jitte is great, it's cheap so you can hardcast it quickly and all of the modes are relevant.

Prelates are also bad. Thalia 1.0 is okay as an early blocker / good equipment target, so I don't mind having >0 - I think the real reason to sb her out is that you don't want the card disadvantage of drawing multiples when it isn't even that great to begin with.

The thing I realized about Eldrazi is that it's sometimes comparable to playing against t1 combo - they have some essentially unbeatable draws and when you lose to those you just have to suck it up and accept that we've agreed to play a format where your opponent can put 20 sol lands in their deck. The key is winning the games that you can win - and there are plenty. I think the matchup is 50-50 if you respect Eldrazi with your sideboard. Since many of the games you lose are out of your control so when you lose to Mimic->TKS->Smasher it feels worse than a 50-50 matchup - you don't get the chance to play yourself out of that situation, even if your opponent is terrible.

On the other hand, Eldrazi generally gives up some free wins to its opponent when it has clunky draws.

I think putting one Crackdown or whatever in your board probably does less than you'd want it to because there's a 40% chance they have turn 2 TKS to take it anyway - and that's if you even happen to have it. If you are on an E tutor plan, your sideboard tech is now soft to Chalice. So I think you just want a bunch of generally good cards - fast removal, more land destruction, bigger creatures, Banisher Priests, Relic Warders to eat Chalices/Jittes etc. rather than some silver bullet. That said, Magus is a pretty good silver bullet.

Maybe I got my Jitte too late, then. You have to keep in mind that I play 2x Mox Diamond, which makes statements like a turn 2 TKS taking away a Crackdown less true. Turn 1 Thalia and turn 2 thalia 2.0's was the initial reason for playing them, but it turns out that it's also a great way to play around Daze also, and/or play those 3-drops sooner when they are more likely to be relevant longer.

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[AsmodeusDM]

Yeah there was a lot of discussion on these boards when the glut of 3-drops started pooring about playing Chrome Mox or other fast-mana sources to accelerate the 3 drops (especially THC).

The concern is the card disadvantage something like chrome mox or mox diamond entails... in a white deck with no (easy) card draw.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Yeah there was a lot of discussion on these boards when the glut of 3-drops started pooring about playing Chrome Mox or other fast-mana sources to accelerate the 3 drops (especially THC).

The concern is the card disadvantage something like chrome mox or mox diamond entails... in a white deck with no (easy) card draw.

I think Chrome Mox is a terrible idea, but Diamond has been solid for me so far as I can tell. Turning a mana denial land into a colored source, pitching an extra Karakas to make that necessary 3rd land drop that produces your 2nd white mana, even tossing a Plains to play around an expected Massacre. I watched that discussion pretty hard, and only saw mox diamond mentioned in passing once, but I loved the idea and so far it's been strong for me. I would encourage others to at least see what it offers. I play 2, I've heard one other person say they play a singleton to good results.

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[iatee]

Mox Diamond is definitely better than Chrome Mox, which is only playable in turn 1 combo. But the decks that play Mox Diamond have Loams to recoup the card disadvantage.

Playing the card just ups the variance in the deck. Turn 1 Thalia is fun and if your local meta is filled with fast combo it might be worth it. But over a longer tournament, playing cards like Mox Diamond is going to come to haunt you. As a topdeck it is essentially the same as skipping your draw step. And it's not a terrible topdeck against some people - it's a terrible topdeck against 100% of the field. And you will topdeck it, because DnT doesn't win quickly.

I think if you want to play that game, play White Eldrazi. Control decks don't voluntarily give away card advantage unless they absolutely have to.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So far it's been fine. If and when it becomes an issue, I'll revisit the topic.

If anyone has actually put some time in with the card, lmk your list and how you have been doing with it. Thanks.

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[Finn]

I think Chrome Mox is a terrible idea

Why? Let's hear the reasons. It is not random Brainstorming of ideas at work here.

There are more creature legends to avoid doubling up on than lands. Karakas, the only land legend we care about can be used in a sense while the second Thalia is generally useless. The math of Chrome Mox makes more sense in this deck than Mox Diamond because it is a simple matter to count it as a Plains while Mox Diamond takes up a spell slot. The fact that we now have some actual card advantage, the loss of a spell can be largely mitigated while the land can never be got back.

I played with 2 Chrome Mox long enough to see the advantages and the down sides. The card performed fine and is rather difficult to manage properly. It needs more testing of the number crunching kind, and I am not in a position to invest that kind of time.

I can say without reservation that Mox Diamond is a dead end while Chrome Mox is a possibility. This post was written in a hurry, so I am sorry if it is somewhat unrefined.

[iatee]

We're not a stompy deck that has a consistent 'play hard lockpieces ASAP and beatdown' plan. If you play enough lockpieces and sol lands then you can justify the pure card disadvantage of Chrome Mox. T1 Blood Moon/Chalice/Suppression Field can just win the game on the spot. I forgot about those decks when I said Chrome Mox is only playable in combo, but stompy decks are close to being t1 combo decks anyway, it's just their combo win is 'cast Blood Moon / Chalice on turn 1, opponent can't play magic.' When they don't play that exact game, the decks perform poorly. (Except for Eldrazi, which has a pretty good backup plan of t2 TKS, t3 Reality Smasher etc.)

Anyway - we actually care about card disadvantage. A lot. Vs. fair decks we play long grindy games with tons of 1 for 1ing. We have a better long game than most of the format because we play SfM and equipment, and you can't make it to the late game if you run out of cards after a few turns.

You don't love seeing 2 Thalias in your opening hand but 1st Thalia gets countered or eventually dies vs most interactive decks. And "We have pure card advantage via Recruiter so we can now play card disadvantage" doesn't add up, it just means we gives away something that made the deck better.

If they ever printed a white spirit guide, it might be interesting as a one of, topdecking a vanilla 2/2 isn't nothing in an equipment deck. I think the chances that they print any more fast mana is very low though. But topdecking a Mox Diamond or Chrome Mox is always, always going to just be 'skip your draw step' for us.

[iatee]

In other news, 3 DnT in the t8 at Eternal Weekend.

2nd - Macenzie Doyle

DECK
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Mangara of Crondor
2 Serra Avenger
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull
10 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Cavern of Souls

SIDEBOARD
2 Containment Priest
2 Council’s Judgement
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Cataclysm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Path to Exile
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Giden, Ally of Zendikar

4th - Pengyu Chen

DECK
9 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Aether Vial
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Serra Avenger
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Mother of Runes
2 Sanctum Prelate

SIDEBOARD
1 Council's Judgment
1 Manriki Gusari
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Seal of Cleansing
2 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
1 Sword of the Light and Shadow
2 Cataclysm
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar




5th - David Bauman

DECK
4 Sword to Plowshares
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Banisher Priest
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Serra Avenger
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
4 Aether Vial
9 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas

SIDEBOARD
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Council’s Judgement
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Cataclysm
1 Veteran Armorer
2 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
1 Containment Priest
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Pithing Needle
1 Disenchant

[BearsandSquires]

Easiest top 8, 8-0-2 at eternal weekend

[Curby]

There are more creature legends to avoid doubling up on than lands. Karakas, the only land legend we care about can be used in a sense while the second Thalia is generally useless.

I wouldn't count on doubling up to happen very much. Of course we think it happens a lot because it's often annoying, so those instances stick out in our mind. The math says that if you run 4 Thalias, you'll need to go 9 turns before you get a 25% chance of seeing a pair. If you run 3 THCs, you'll need to go 14 turns before you get a 25% chance of seeing a pair. Based on those stats, I wouldn't count "outlet for redundant pairs" very high on the reasons to run a Mox, or to choose one over another.

Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...WRcdzm2ow/edit

The math of Chrome Mox makes more sense in this deck than Mox Diamond because it is a simple matter to count it as a Plains while Mox Diamond takes up a spell slot.

I'm probably being dumb, but can you explain this?

I can say without reservation that Mox Diamond is a dead end while Chrome Mox is a possibility.

Over on MTGS there were some folks testing out Chrome Mox. It didn't seem to bear fruit, but that's not to say that it can't work.

But topdecking a Mox Diamond or Chrome Mox is always, always going to just be 'skip your draw step' for us.

Right, much like seeing a Plains when you're already flush with land. The question is if we consider this a basic plains, can we adjust the manabase (e.g. 22 lands 2 Moxen) to not significantly increase the number of dead late-game draws?

2nd - Macenzie Doyle

Missing STP?

EDIT: Across those three lists, the number of THCs equals the number of Enlightened Tutors. I would have expected more THCs and fewer tutors.

[AsmodeusDM]

Wasn't watching the final rounds too closely (I'm from Cleveland and we are now one game away from a World Series victory)...

Checked the top 8; and WOW .. 3 D&T lists!

All 3 running some number of RoTG/SP...

I think we can safely assume that C2 defintely has pushed our deck into one of the top 3 decks in Legacy .. I'd say Miracles, Grixis Delver, and D&T.

Of note:

- lists played 1, 2, and 3 Recruiter of the guard....
- lists played 2, 2, 1 of Serra Avenger (despite the "lack of synergy").

As a result it seems each list also saved a Cavern (with 2 lists running only a singleton). I used to lean on cavern for miracles match-ups; but maybe it's so good now that we dont' need cavern as much

In general the lists were all pretty similar... although 2 of the lists ran 2 copies of THC and the 2nd-place list ran 0 (opting for a Mangara and a Crusader).

Weighted Average of the decks (sorted spells/lands desc)

Spell Avg
T,GOT 4.0
SFM 4.0
Vial 4.0
Swords 4.0
MOM 3.7
Wisp 3.7
Revoker 2.7
Recruiter 2.3
Prelate 1.7
Avenger 1.7
T,HC 1.3
SoFaI 1.0
Jitte 1.0
Skull 1.0
Crusader 0.3
Mangara 0.3
SotL 0.3
Bpriest 0.3

Plains 9.3
Wastes 4.0
Ports 4.0
Karakas 3.0
Cavern 1.3
Canopy 0.7
Flagstones 0.3



RiP 2.0
Cpriest 1.7
Canonist 1.7
Cjudge 1.3
Etutor 1.3
Cataclysm 1.3
Gideon 1.3
Path 1.0
Needle 0.7
Cage 0.3
Wilt Leaf 0.3
Manriki 0.3
Seal of Cleansing 0.3
Sword of L/S 0.3
Relic Warder 0.3
Vet Armorer 0.3
Disenchant 0.3

[AsmodeusDM]

Interesting that Cata AND Gideon appear in the boards in all of the lists.

Presuming I'd want both of those in the miracles match-up... that does seem a bit of a non-bo?