I kinda doubt jailer is good. They are light on threats but remember they are very good at clearing the board as well as having baleful strixes. I will put my money on fiendslayer paladin which gets around shaman and strix in combat but unlike crusader lives through all the red spells like bolt and kolaghan. I agree Mangara is slow, maybe at best exiling one card.Originally Posted by CptHaddock
From what I can tell, there's nothing really for us in the new Commander set so far. Stalking Leonin isn't bad, but too unreliable at what she does. I feel like the design is cool, but they at least should have made the ability as and not when, just like True-Name Nemesis. Teferi's Protection is a catch-all against a lot of combo and sweepers, but too unreliable at 3 mana. Nothing else stands out.
Crusader has protection from Kolaghan's Command. You're really only playing around Bolt, which Grixis Control and Czech Pile only play few copies of (2 max). I'd probably play a third Crusader before I'd go for Fiendhunter Paladin. Mangara is not good because he is slow and because the worst threats these decks throw at us are spells, not permanents. You can't expect him to deal with Jace, because you can be damn sure that by the time they slam Jace they either have enough removal to protect him or they're in a tight spot where they don't expect him to live through combat anyway.
Jailer's card advantage ought to allow you to keep up with the tons of removal and card advantage these control lists can throw at us, same as with Shardless and Miracles. Downside is that Grixis plays quite a few more creatures than decks like Miracles and has access to flash unlike Shardless, so losing the Monarch is more of a risk. This makes Gideon the better value card, but he is not recruitable and more easy to counter. Jailer is also deployable against more decks than just control, like Eldrazi, Show and Tell and Reanimator.
Just loop Pia and Kiran Nalaars with Karakas until your opponent concedes. On a similar note, Brimaz isnt bad vs Czech Pile but is still much worse than P+K.
Good point I did not realize 4C control was moving away from bolts. Seems like most lists are playing only 1 copy now. Crusader is definitely better than Fiendslayer in this match-up, though Fiendslayer still has applications against Lands, Burn, Jund, etc.
I would always take Gideon over Palace Jailer here. Czech pile only runs Force of Wills for counters and they have a weak board presence. My opinion of Jailer is probably a bit biased because I see him as a significantly worse Dark Confidant but I think it's safe to say Gideon > Jailer between the two.
Imo, Palace Jailer is not a safe card to play against Czech Pile.
If you're splashing so you can reliably afford double red, Pia and Kiran Nalaar definitely seems like the card to make Czech people cry. Don't just look at their lack of wasteland though, also remember that your vials are not quite likely to stick around if you even drew them early on. Moon effects can be helpful, but they do nullify your Karakas shenanigans.
While the Paladin has protection from Punishing Fire, this engine is something better addressed thoroughly through wasteland, rest in peace and sanctum prelate rather than a single immune creature that is still susceptible to maze of ith, Lily and goyf (never mind barbarian ring and molten vortex). So its main advantage would lie in burn, where at 3 mana and two life next turn it's still not that stellar.
In most lists (with 2 recruiters), you are three times more likely to draw into a singleton Jailer than a Gideon. The card is not hampered by Thalia and can be cast with cavern mana, making it both immune to FoW (and Counterspell from Grixis Control) and also more likely to be castable colorwise. The fact that these decks have weak board presence makes the Jailer even better, as they're less likely to steal the Monarch.I would always take Gideon over Palace Jailer here. Czech pile only runs Force of Wills for counters and they have a weak board presence. My opinion of Jailer is probably a bit biased because I see him as a significantly worse Dark Confidant but I think it's safe to say Gideon > Jailer between the two.
Jailer is not comparable to Confidant: the card is virtually guaranteed to replace itself and at least temporally take away an opposing threat. As additional reward, it may net you an untargetable card advantage engine that wins you the game after a turn or two. The downside is that it comes with a high risk, i.e. that you will almost certainly lose if they steal the Monarch from you before that. But you have to keep in mind that if you're in a spot where they can deal with all aspects of the Jailer and you can do nothing to interfere, there's no card that is not Jailer that would have saved you that game at that spot.
EDIT:
If it's not a safe card in this match-up, it's not going to be a safe card in any match-up.
The only matchup I've ever cared for Jailer in was Miracles with top. I absolutely dislike it otherwise.
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When I say weak board presence, I mean they have very little ways to take Gideon down quickly as they have low powered creatures. Baleful strix will present a serious problem with the monarch mechanism but the main criticsm against Jailer goes beyond this.
I make the comparison with confidant here because their main draws (pun intended) are card advantage in a deck that desperately needs it. There is a lot of "ifs" in making jailer a very reliable card (as a 4 drop should be). I have to ask myself why I wouldn't rather run another mirran cruasader or gideon in its place because there are not many matchups where Jailer provides a unique "i win" scenario that Gideon himself provides.
I'm not really sure why you are comparing paladin with those cards. Paladin is not meant to be a complete solution against a deck. It is like saying one shouldn't play Thalia HC because old thalia is better, when in reality they are not competing for the same slots. I was only implying that having a recruitable card that survives the punishing fire combo can be very good, in addition to the lifelink. Perhaps it is not worth playing but I am only brainstorming here.
Jailer will never contend with Crusader slots as it has a completely different purpose. It is sort of in the same bracket as Gideon, where I think the factors that it is easier, safer and more reliable to cast are very relevant. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't run Gideon, just that I would run a singleton Jailer first.
A key difference between the two is that Gideon operates mostly as the final nail in the coffin. He comes down at a game shift situation and turns it definitely in our favor (which is very relevant, as these are games we could very well lose without the timely Gideon). Jailer has this function less often because of the inherent risk in his effect: he is more often a last resort tactic, where you come back after the game already shifted in your opponent's favor by simultaneously attacking his board state, improving your hand and forcing your opponent to aggressively deal with the problem now or lose. I really like this functionality, the opportunity to get a back-into-the-game card out of a recruiter.
My point was not that he competes with those sideboard cards, but that I don't think paladin is that great against punishing fire strategies and hence that he doesn't bring that much to the deck after all. When you're facing punishing fire, you don't beat it by getting a creature out that can't be hit by it. You win by disabling the combo or racing it.I'm not really sure why you are comparing paladin with those cards. Paladin is not meant to be a complete solution against a deck. It is like saying one shouldn't play Thalia HC because old thalia is better, when in reality they are not competing for the same slots. I was only implying that having a recruitable card that survives the punishing fire combo can be very good, in addition to the lifelink. Perhaps it is not worth playing but I am only brainstorming here.
I've actually found Gideon to be way more fragile than he looks on paper against Czech Pile. They have a lot of incidental creatures that can attack for just enough. He'll still be good, but sometimes they can Snap push the token then attack with Snap Strix Shaman or whatever. I've lost a lot of Gideons to Bolts and K Commands as well.
I was talking about Crusader because we're talking about "which card X should be in sideboard to deal with Czech Pile"; hence it doesn't matter if I'm comparing a 3-mana beater with 4-mana card advantage machines. In this case, Crusader might actually be better than Gideon or Jailer. The argument for Gideon is that it's a better card against boardwipes like Toxic Deluge. Czech pile has a bunch of small threats and many lists don't even run TNN or Gurmag Angler, which is why I believe Gideon is not that easy to kill compared to Jailer. If you're in a board state where Gideon is easy to kill, that's probably the same kind of board where your opponent becomes the monarch with Jailer. They run 1-3 combination of K-command and bolt max, in most recent lists.
The second thing I was noting was the cards' uses outside of just this 4c control match-up. Where do we want to side Jailer in? Miracles is gone. Shardless sultai is a good place to be, except Crusader is probably good there as well. Probably too vulnerable against Grixis Delver and Deathblade decks run plenty of removals + 4 True-Name Nemesis. The mirror? Gideon is better there.
There's good arguments to be made for running extra crusaders right now. They are probably the best choice against BUG and grixis dominated meta's. But they're rather narrow otherwise, being not as good against miracles, against esper (Gideon) or against big creature decks (Jailer). I also like Jailer or Gideon for doing something special people do not really expect from this deck: producing a threat that is not a creature or an equipment/artifact. Decks vulnerable to crusader will dedicate a bunch of slots to cards that can take care of him. They will have a much harder time warping their gameplan to address Gideon or Jailer.
Miracles is not gone and in fact in the DTB section of this website. I would never board in Jailer against delver, blade decks or the mirror. He has merit however against show and tell, eldrazi and red stompy.The second thing I was noting was the cards' uses outside of just this 4c control match-up. Where do we want to side Jailer in? Miracles is gone. Shardless sultai is a good place to be, except Crusader is probably good there as well. Probably too vulnerable against Grixis Delver and Deathblade decks run plenty of removals + 4 True-Name Nemesis. The mirror? Gideon is better there.
before running the 3rd crusader i'd rather run a paladin at the moment, seeing how polluted the meta is with grixis decks of all variants. paladin is a good card to cast right now, especially since the post-board games against grixis delver are harder than pre-board and having a resilient creature that counteracts their tempo strategy with lifelink is valuable.
also, jailer wins games. yes, he can backfire. but if you use him in the right match ups you can minimize the chance while having an angle of attack that DnT is usually lacking (pure CA).
also, am i the only one who likes ethersworn canonist in the main as a 1-of? ive found that it isnt as narrow as some people make it out to be and really can be an annoyance for unfair and fair(especially cantrip) decks alike. IMO it is much better than spirit of the labyrinth. i never found that card to be really useful. ethersworn canonist seems to be the best genrically good 2 drop disruptive creature we have at the moment aside from the usual DnT core 2 drops. and sometimes it just randomly wins a game while very very rarely being completely dead. i juust wish it had first strike but well...we cant have everything i guess
People don't dedicate specific hate cards against Crusader. They sideboard cards that overlap (e.g Toxic Deluge). I don't see your logic of how Jailer is harder to address than a Crusader. Anyways I think I'm beating a dead horse here by this point. Jailer is only situationally good against the three decks you listed; in fact, in most situations you're better off replacing it with Council's Judgment here.
I never said that they run cards specific for crusader. I said that they will dedicate some of their sideboard slots to cards that can take care of him, such as Toxic Deluge and Diabolic Edict. Probably this is more with true-name rather than crusader in mind, but the outcome for us is the same.
Crusader is taken care of with a single removal spell or by having chump blockers. It needs to be the right removal spell and the right color of blockers due to protection, but these decks have access to these sort of cards, in particular after siding. If all else fails, they can accept 4 damage a turn for a few turns.I don't see your logic of how Jailer is harder to address than a Crusader.
Jailer necessitates that they try to steal the monarch as quickly as possible or lose. The Monarch is not something that can be destroyed by a spell, it requires combat which is what control is not very good at. Jailer himself constitutes a double obstacle to this combat approach, as he takes away a creature and is a blocker himself.
Have you all forgotten that Cataclysm and Armageddon exist? The way to beat big blue decks is quite obviously not to try and play big white.
I could see that being a decent approach. Sideboard is a little tight, but that might be worth exploring again.
Are we talking specifically about using those two spells against Czech Pile/4c Control? That seems reasonable, especially if they decide to swap their counters for removal. Yes, that is pretty great. I'm in.
What else is it good against, Lands, ig?
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I haven't paid attention to the minutia of the most recent posts, but seeing people talk about more gideons and more 3 mana 2/2s as a way to beat the attrition decks just seems awful. Cataclysm is good against basically every fair/control deck, especially if you're a baller and play lots of Flagstones. Just don't bother bringing it in against Delver.
If you're on Wr then From the Ashes seems great against czech pile and some of the other greedy mana bases in legacy, also basically does nothing to you.
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