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Thread: [Deck] Death and Taxes

  1. #9621

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    If you get Mom + Prelate on X=6, that's pretty good; but it can still be defeated by CJ as you mentioned, and Supreme Verdict (which is being included more frequently lately). If I have equipment on the table, I'll throw out a lone Prelate at X=1 to force the use of mass removal or CJ on a single target. Otherwise, if I have multiple creatures, I'll throw it on X=4 or 6 to make them still mostly have to trade 1-for-1. StPs targeting Prelate are not hitting key disruptive creatures or messing up Recruiter-Flickerwisp chains.

    Shalai can also to some extent do what we used to use Mother of Runes for, while being defensible with Karakas and able to be a significant threat in the air.

    I think Canonist can be able blow-out, especially with Vial. That said, there are situations where you definitely want CJ. We have too many good cards in this matchup and not enough room to get them all in.

  2. #9622

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Darkview View Post
    Perhaps that's correct; I think the terms semi-qualitative and semi-quantitative start to blur at a point, and I opted for the latter. It's definitely not fully quantitative.

    Let me know if the analysis was useful at all, or you have any suggestions. It was a little project that took a couple of hours tops, but I hope it benefited someone that wasn't me.



    That was a great report, with some interesting insights. I think you got lucky at times, but you clearly played sharp enough to give yourself as many opportunities to have that luck. I'm also running a list that includes Shalai and Crusader, and that matches some of my experiences (admittedly more limited sample size and probably against poorer opponents).

    How do you feel about 23 lands? Was it enough? I have a Plains and Prelate where you have your 3rd and 4th Crusaders, and I've been considering going back to 23 land and fitting either Brimaz or a 3rd Crusader.



    It depends on what else you have to do with the mana at that point. However, if you can protect Shalai from Push, you protect everything from Push... and all other removal. This is not irrelevant.
    It would be nice to see some more discussions of individual cards!

  3. #9623

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Darkview View Post
    If you get Mom + Prelate on X=6, that's pretty good; but it can still be defeated by CJ as you mentioned, and Supreme Verdict (which is being included more frequently lately). If I have equipment on the table, I'll throw out a lone Prelate at X=1 to force the use of mass removal or CJ on a single target. Otherwise, if I have multiple creatures, I'll throw it on X=4 or 6 to make them still mostly have to trade 1-for-1. StPs targeting Prelate are not hitting key disruptive creatures or messing up Recruiter-Flickerwisp chains.
    Verdict is another reason mom is not as great as she seems in this match-up.

    Shalai can also to some extent do what we used to use Mother of Runes for, while being defensible with Karakas and able to be a significant threat in the air.
    I don't think Shalai is very good against miracles. She's legendary, but her creature type does not align well with cavern nor her mana cost with vial. This makes her vulnerable to counters, of which miracles tends to keep in a bunch to hedge against cataclysm and to combo with predict(fow) and snapcaster(counterspell). Her stats do not protect her from any removal spell in miracles other than perhaps engineered explosives and do not allow her to add more pressure than the average 3-drop. Her protective abilities also matter little because the deck has so many sweepers and few things that care about player hexproof (unlike for instance edicts and therapy and liliana in grixis).

    I think Canonist can be able blow-out, especially with Vial. That said, there are situations where you definitely want CJ. We have too many good cards in this matchup and not enough room to get them all in.
    The problem is that we have too many situationally good cards for this match-up and not enough ability to find them when these situations arise. This makes a non-situational plan of aggressive disruption most attractive (e.g. cutting mom in favor of keeping beaters or playing cards like cataclysm, chalice of the void and/or sanctum prelate).

  4. #9624
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Hey guys, I made top 16 of the Baltimore Legacy classic last week with this list except with Serra Avengers instead of Serra Angels (lol):
    http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/120717

    My matchups were:
    Grixis Delver: 1-2
    ANT: 2-0
    Sneak and Show: 2-1
    Eldrazi: 2-0
    Lands(Ben Feingersh): 2-0
    Miracles: 2-0
    BR Reanimator: 1-2
    Elves (Reid Duke): 2-1

    Final Record: 6-2

    Overall, the deck felt great. Going up to 3 paths in the side and playing the 11th plains over the second cavern was definitely right. However, the delver matchup felt a lot closer than it should be. Whenever I lost that matchup it was due to a horde of young pyromancer tokens so maybe holy light in the board is worth considering. I can also do a more in-depth report if anyone wants.

  5. #9625
    Force of Will is my bitch
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    It is terrible that we have to discuss craptastical cards like Holy Light for this job. How good is Declaration in Stone in this place? It's pretty broad - and so can go in where Path to Exile currently does, and cheaper than Holy Light, though it is a sorcery. I don't imagine too many opponents will have a lot of mana to spare against this deck for the investigations. if you are just clearing out tokens, they don't even get any. Of course, you don't get to hit the Pyromancer at the same time.

    Opinions?
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    "Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
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  6. #9626
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    From someone brand-spanking-new to the archetype, I'd only say that Holy Light netted me 2 TNN, 1 Young Peezie, and an unflipped Delver at last week's local. Exception to the rule? Definitely. Fun, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by ktkenshinx View Post
    The Reserved List is a) not legally binding, b) antiquated, c) broken, and d) preventative of maximum game enjoyment. Wizards will remove as many cards from that list as possible to increase the fun of their game. Using market research, they can find a balance between printing enough cards to lower a price from $40 to $15-$20, and not utterly ruining their value. This will be both an economically feasible AND sensible move.
    -ktkenshinx-

  7. #9627

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Holy Light seems like hot garbage to me, it even kills revoker and is unusable in the mirror, but I'm spoiled by Zealous Persecution

  8. #9628
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Holy Light is downright necessary in some local metagames, but if you can, you want a stronger alternative for it - like Orzhov Pontiff.

  9. #9629

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Guest touranment report time! This time with Simon Depraz, who took 2nd at the EU Eternal Weekend with D&T! http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1760

  10. #9630
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Medea_ View Post
    Guest touranment report time! This time with Simon Depraz, who took 2nd at the EU Eternal Weekend with D&T! http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=1760
    So we're back to square 1 playing WW stock DnT list? :)

  11. #9631
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by colo View Post
    Holy Light is downright necessary in some local metagames, but if you can, you want a stronger alternative for it - like Orzhov Pontiff.
    holy light hits Nemesis too. Maybe is necessary. Hard to say.

    A note on equipment. It is stronger the more your opponent has sweepers. Think black or white. But red has nasty flashback and Kolaghan command 2-1 effects that make equipment less valuable. Though command is good even without artifacts to hit
    "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
    "Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
    "Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
    "Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."

  12. #9632
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Our equipment used to be a lot more effective than it is now. Miracles played at most one answer to equipment in the main, which made t2 SfM for Sofi a powerful start against the best deck in the format. And the second best deck in the format, Grixis Delver had no answer to an equipped creature in the main.

    But now Kolaghan's Command sees more play than Terminus and Grixis Delver players play TNN main, which allows Delver a chance to brick non-SoFi equipment g1. The bind is that I still don't think we can actually take out SfM because it's so necessary to beat the other fair decks in legacy. But it's not reliably good against the best fair decks in legacy anymore.

  13. #9633

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    As for individual cards and the use of enchantments, has anyone tried Absolute Law? It gets us around Kolaghan's Command, Forked Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Punishing Fire, Young Pyromancer. Of course our artifacts are still hosed, and we have to worry about Fatal Push, Gurmag Angler etc.

    A thought popped into my head today: What about Phantasmal Image? It is reactionary, and it can fill a 2-drop slot. I know the blue splash is not very strong. My hope is that having a Gurmag, TNN, Leovold, {Insert big guy} could be effective. There is also a great deal of discard, so maybe it is not very possible.

  14. #9634

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Hi everyone. I'm a couple hundred bones off finishing D&T and wondered if there was consensus on a stock list. Nothing fancy as I want to play with the meat and taters version and develop my list as I gain experience.

    FWIW the money cards I'm missing are:

    4 Aether Vial
    1 Rishadan Port (thx Masters 25!)
    1 Thalia GoT
    1 SFM
    1 Karakas
    Mom-mom had to die because of the ground chemicals. http://achewood.com/index.php?date=10272003

  15. #9635
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    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Tristin183 View Post
    As for individual cards and the use of enchantments, has anyone tried Absolute Law? It gets us around Kolaghan's Command, Forked Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Punishing Fire, Young Pyromancer. Of course our artifacts are still hosed, and we have to worry about Fatal Push, Gurmag Angler etc.

    A thought popped into my head today: What about Phantasmal Image? It is reactionary, and it can fill a 2-drop slot. I know the blue splash is not very strong. My hope is that having a Gurmag, TNN, Leovold, {Insert big guy} could be effective. There is also a great deal of discard, so maybe it is not very possible.
    Absolute Law has been well tested I think, many people ran it for a long time. Protection from Bolt is good.

    Image doesn't seem like a ridiculously bad idea, but I'd go for Phyrexian Metamorph before that just because it's playable in mono-W, it can copy artifacts if needed, and it can be reset with Wisp if something else comes down you'd rather have a copy of. It's just got more options, that's all. Copying TNN or Batterskull can be backbreaking against some opponents.

  16. #9636

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by menloe View Post
    Hi everyone. I'm a couple hundred bones off finishing D&T and wondered if there was consensus on a stock list. Nothing fancy as I want to play with the meat and taters version and develop my list as I gain experience.

    FWIW the money cards I'm missing are:

    4 Aether Vial
    1 Rishadan Port (thx Masters 25!)
    1 Thalia GoT
    1 SFM
    1 Karakas
    Check the decklist tab of Thraben University (linked in my signature) for some example decklists. I also put up an article today that touches on the idea of the stock decklist right now.

  17. #9637

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    I've just posted a video featuring a Death & Taxes sideboard guide. You find it here:
    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ideboard-guide

    Good luck to those who will attend GP Birmingham tomorrow!

  18. #9638

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Medea_ View Post
    Check the decklist tab of Thraben University (linked in my signature) for some example decklists. I also put up an article today that touches on the idea of the stock decklist right now.
    Where is the article?

  19. #9639

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by redtwister View Post
    Where is the article?
    The guest tournament report goes into it. I posted it yesterday here, otherwise it's the top thing in my article tab.

  20. #9640

    Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes

    Quote Originally Posted by Medea_ View Post
    The guest tournament report goes into it. I posted it yesterday here, otherwise it's the top thing in my article tab.
    Ah, I thought there was a separate article on the metagame. Simon's report was very interesting and thoughtful. It is a really good overview and it was interesting to see how much he values Sanctum Prelate whereas it is viewed as sub-optimal by so many people right now.

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