[Deck] Death and Taxes

[compacta_d]

If you need 2 drop NON revokers, Spirit of the Labyrinth and remorseful cleric fill that slot well.

I may be trying out Spirit of the Labyrinth myself.


revoker is super good right now. You can play mained Canonist as well. Decent against control and combo.

[potentia]

What does the matchup against Eldrazi look like in general? Sometimes they are too fast for me to come back and stabilize the board.

23 LANDS
6 Plains
5 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls

26 CREATURES
4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Palace Jailer
2 Serra Avenger
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Flickerwisp
1 Sanctum Prelate

11 OTHER SPELLS
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

15 SIDEBOARD
2 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
2 Council´s Judgment
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Walking Ballista
1 Containment Priest
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Cataclysm
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar


+2 CJ, +2 PtE, +1 Containment Priest, +2 Cataclysm?
-4 Mom, -2 Thalia, GoT, -1 Prelate

Does this seem correct?

[iatee]

Gideon and Relic Warder are good vs Eldrazi, and I don't think Containment Priest is great. You can't afford to shut off your own Vial, that's the best way to keep pace with them.

[Lord Darkview]

Potentia:

Your build looks fine versus in general and is alright versus Eldrazi Stompy (not Eldrazi Post, but that deck's a bloody nightmare), so I'm not going to recommend any changes there.

The match itself isn't bad. Overall, I feel it's something like 60-40 favorable for us. They do have some amazingly fast draws that you simply can't beat (especially if you're on the draw). On the flip side, if you're on the play and go Vial, Port, Wasteland, sometimes they just die too. A bit more than half of your games will be real games, and I think we tend to be favored there. You need to prioritize stopping their initial rush, and then getting something online that they just can't handle. Batterskull, flyer or Crusader with a Jitte or Sword, and the like tend to do a lot of work. Their Chalices are not super-effective but they do stop your removal, and ignoring them may not be an option. After this, there is a large space where you can try to win the game by going on the attack. This space won't remain open forever, as Endbringer, All is Dust, Eye of Ugin searching are potentially very strong late-game plans for them. Figure out when you have the opening, turn the corner, and beat them while restraining their mana.

For sideboarding, I would drop 4 Mom, 3 Thalia, and 1 Prelate, and bring in 2 PtE, 2 CJ, 1 LRW, 2 Cataclysm, and 1 Gideon. This is pretty close to your original plan, but I agree with iatee that Priest turning off vials is a bigger liability than its synergy with Flickerwisp as removal, and that Gideon is potentially quite strong here. The only thing beyond that is I would bring in the LRW to add another option for removing Chalices; you will want to spend your CJs on bigger targets, and having more redundancy with Flickerwisp is helpful. Plus, they often have Jitte, and LRW can answer that as well.

[potentia]

Potentia:

Your build looks fine versus in general and is alright versus Eldrazi Stompy (not Eldrazi Post, but that deck's a bloody nightmare), so I'm not going to recommend any changes there.

The match itself isn't bad. Overall, I feel it's something like 60-40 favorable for us. They do have some amazingly fast draws that you simply can't beat (especially if you're on the draw). On the flip side, if you're on the play and go Vial, Port, Wasteland, sometimes they just die too. A bit more than half of your games will be real games, and I think we tend to be favored there. You need to prioritize stopping their initial rush, and then getting something online that they just can't handle. Batterskull, flyer or Crusader with a Jitte or Sword, and the like tend to do a lot of work. Their Chalices are not super-effective but they do stop your removal, and ignoring them may not be an option. After this, there is a large space where you can try to win the game by going on the attack. This space won't remain open forever, as Endbringer, All is Dust, Eye of Ugin searching are potentially very strong late-game plans for them. Figure out when you have the opening, turn the corner, and beat them while restraining their mana.

For sideboarding, I would drop 4 Mom, 3 Thalia, and 1 Prelate, and bring in 2 PtE, 2 CJ, 1 LRW, 2 Cataclysm, and 1 Gideon. This is pretty close to your original plan, but I agree with iatee that Priest turning off vials is a bigger liability than its synergy with Flickerwisp as removal, and that Gideon is potentially quite strong here. The only thing beyond that is I would bring in the LRW to add another option for removing Chalices; you will want to spend your CJs on bigger targets, and having more redundancy with Flickerwisp is helpful. Plus, they often have Jitte, and LRW can answer that as well.

Thanks for the reply! I'll keep all of this in mind.

[iatee]

I would put Eldrazi as 40-60 unfavored. You really need a Vial to keep up with them and leverage your Ports and Wastelands, but their random Chalice on 1s screw that up a chunk of the time. You have a lot more dead cards g1. Their current flex cards - Walking Ballista, Jitte, Endbringer - are all lights out for DnT.

[Koke_MTG]

I would put Eldrazi as 40-60 unfavored. You really need a Vial to keep up with them and leverage your Ports and Wastelands, but their random Chalice on 1s screw that up a chunk of the time. You have a lot more dead cards g1. Their current flex cards - Walking Ballista, Jitte, Endbringer - are all lights out for DnT.

Completely agree with this. I don't undestand people talking about this like a 'good matchup'. It's close at best.

This is not like in first steps of the Eldrazi deck that they were heavy on Thorn of Amethyst maindeck and we both were close referring to G1 dead cards.

They replaced them for Walking Ballista, Umezawa's Jitte, more other fatties and more lands. All of them relevant for the MU and to out-grind opponents in general. So whatever they jam is harder to resolve for us, the frequence for it is also higher and the same for mana denial plan, which is sometimes imposible, even more without Aether Vial as Iatee says.

This referred to Stompy version. Big Eldrazi is just like a joke. The amount of mana that deck generates is insane and you've to align planets to have heavy mana disruption + pressure dodging your useless cards and his disruption without manipulation.

I'm on an 'OK' WW D&T version to fight Eldrazi variants and in the last two months on MTGO I'm 8-6 overall vs Eldrazi variants so please guys tell me what you're doing to find it a positive MU

Enviado desde mi Aquaris X5 mediante Tapatalk

[potentia]

Completely agree with this. I don't undestand people talking about this like a 'good matchup'. It's close at best.

This is not like in first steps of the Eldrazi deck that they were heavy on Thorn of Amethyst maindeck and we both were close referring to G1 dead cards.

They replaced them for Walking Ballista, Umezawa's Jitte, more other fatties and more lands. All of them relevant for the MU and to out-grind opponents in general. So whatever they jam is harder to resolve for us, the frequence for it is also higher and the same for mana denial plan, which is sometimes imposible, even more without Aether Vial as Iatee says.

This referred to Stompy version. Big Eldrazi is just like a joke. The amount of mana that deck generates is insane and you've to align planets to have heavy mana disruption + pressure dodging your useless cards and his disruption without manipulation.

I'm on an 'OK' WW D&T version to fight Eldrazi variants and in the last two months on MTGO I'm 8-6 overall vs Eldrazi variants so please guys tell me what you're doing to find it a positive MU

Enviado desde mi Aquaris X5 mediante Tapatalk

So, taking into consideration the stats from the last 2 weeks from mtgtop8 website, it looks like D&T has bad matchups against approximately 1/3 of the field at least (Eldrazi, 7%; UWx control - Miracles, 11%; Grixis Control, 11%).

Would it justify or strengthen the line of going bigger and/or going wider as @Medea_ suggested?

[Lord Darkview]

I would put Eldrazi as 40-60 unfavored. You really need a Vial to keep up with them and leverage your Ports and Wastelands, but their random Chalice on 1s screw that up a chunk of the time. You have a lot more dead cards g1. Their current flex cards - Walking Ballista, Jitte, Endbringer - are all lights out for DnT.

Completely agree with this. I don't undestand people talking about this like a 'good matchup'. It's close at best.

This is not like in first steps of the Eldrazi deck that they were heavy on Thorn of Amethyst maindeck and we both were close referring to G1 dead cards.

They replaced them for Walking Ballista, Umezawa's Jitte, more other fatties and more lands. All of them relevant for the MU and to out-grind opponents in general. So whatever they jam is harder to resolve for us, the frequence for it is also higher and the same for mana denial plan, which is sometimes imposible, even more without Aether Vial as Iatee says.

This referred to Stompy version. Big Eldrazi is just like a joke. The amount of mana that deck generates is insane and you've to align planets to have heavy mana disruption + pressure dodging your useless cards and his disruption without manipulation.

I'm on an 'OK' WW D&T version to fight Eldrazi variants and in the last two months on MTGO I'm 8-6 overall vs Eldrazi variants so please guys tell me what you're doing to find it a positive MU

I think we were referring to different decks. To be clear, there are two decks: Eldrazi Stompy is by far the more common deck, and focuses on a quick offense; while Eldrazi Post is a more recent variant with low but increasing popularity, and focuses on ramping all the way to Ulamog.

When I hear someone refer to "Eldrazi," I assume they are referring to Eldrazi Stompy, since it is still far more popular. This is the matchup that I said is a 60-40 favorable. They have fewer Ballistas and have a hard time getting them truly large because so much of their mana is tied up in Eldrazi-only effects, and only a few Endbringers. This deck is generally beatable.

Eldrazi Post on the other hand is completely different, and is a very difficult matchup. This deck can generate enough mana to cast big Ballistas, Endbringers, All is Dust, and other powerful effects against us much more reliably. This one is more like 40-60 unfavorable. Beating this requires a lot more aggression and heavy use of mana-denial to buy time to close the game.

So, taking into consideration the stats from the last 2 weeks from mtgtop8 website, it looks like D&T has bad matchups against approximately 1/3 of the field at least (Eldrazi, 7%; UWx control - Miracles, 11%; Grixis Control, 11%).

Would it justify or strengthen the line of going bigger and/or going wider as @Medea_ suggested?

I don't know if I'd rely on 2-week data cycles to heavily, but their list includes both Eldrazi Stompy AND Eldrazi Post in the "Eldrazi Aggro" category--I consider the former favorable and the latter unfavorable, and there are more of the former. So this is like 2%. Grixis Control and Miracles are indeed unfavorable, as is Elves. So let's total that out at about 27%. But Miracles isn't THAT bad, and I'd be happy to face Shadow, Canadian Threshold, UR Delver, and most of the combo decks.

I do think he is correct to go over some of these decks. We aren't going to win a game trying to out-grind Grixis Control, and we aren't really well-designed to go under them either (though I think about 25% of games just become non-games when mana-denial does its job). That leaves going over them. I'm leaving towards playing five 4-cmc cards in my 75 right now, though I have no useful data yet. It just seems the only option, especially if we can do it without sacrificing much elsewhere.

[Black_Diamond]

Hi,

do you guys think we should play Dust Elemental in the sideboard against Miracles and Grixis Control? I remember that Thomas E. tried it years ago in the sb, but i can´t remember if it was worth the sb slot. May be i will give it a try and give you a feedback about it.

Cheers.

[Marungo]

I know at least in the case of iatee he was referring to stompy and does believe it’s a bad matchup. I tend to agree with him. Without vial I have found this matchup to be unfavorable if we can’t keep up with their fast mana and much larger creatures. And like iatee said, they have gone toward larger bombs and better cards in the fair matchups in their deckbuilding. I believe both are probably unfavorable, though I am interested in playing eldrazi post since I only faced it once at the open and I was on miracles.

[potentia]

Hi,

do you guys think we should play Dust Elemental in the sideboard against Miracles and Grixis Control? I remember that Thomas E. tried it years ago in the sb, but i can´t remember if it was worth the sb slot. May be i will give it a try and give you a feedback about it.

Cheers.

What was Enevoldsen's reasoning for using Dust Elemental back then?

[Black_Diamond]

Afaik he tested it during the Top Miracle area.

[potentia]

Afaik he tested it during the Top Miracle area.

I don't know how Dust Elemental would fare against Grixis Control. We already have some tools to fight Miracles though.

[Black_Diamond]

It could be good against Marsh Casualties and Toxic Deluge, at least in theory

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It could be good against Marsh Casualties and Toxic Deluge, at least in theory

That seems entirely too optimistic. 4 mana open or an untapped vial on 4(!)? A required minimum of two other creatures on the field? Come on.

Even theory should be realistic. This is just cute.

Anyone else noticing a growing weakness to Goblins?

[Medea_]

That seems entirely too optimistic. 4 mana open or an untapped vial on 4(!)? A required minimum of two other creatures on the field? Come on.

Even theory should be realistic. This is just cute.

Anyone else noticing a growing weakness to Goblins?

The matchup certainly got a bit tougher with Trashmaster's printing, but I don't think this is the sort of deck that you make any changes in your 75 to beat. At least not at this time.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

The matchup certainly got a bit tougher with Trashmaster's printing, but I don't think this is the sort of deck that you make any changes in your 75 to beat. At least not at this time.

Trashmaster was definitely one of the changes I was speaking to with my comment, but I think the printing that really made me notice the growing difficulty was Goblin Cratermaker. Between the two, I feel as though it's now an uphill battle.

[AT87]

Hi "D&t" players,
I have doubts concerning the saidboarding (cut and put card post-side) against the new maverick because on the thraben university there are no news related to this match up.

This could be an example list of the new maverick:

//NAME:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Renegade Rallier
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Council's Judgment
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
4 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wasteland
//Sideboard
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

My list (for my meta):

4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
1 Palace Jailer
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Karakas
12 Plains (6 normal and 6 snow-covered)
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

//Sideboard

SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Surgical Exctraction
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Seal of cleasing
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 1 Sword of war and peace

My sideboarding for Maverick is:
Out: -1 Aether Vial, -1 stoneforge, -1 Batterskull, -1 Jitte, -4 TGOT, -3 Phyrexian Revoker
In: +2 RIP, +1 Containment Priest, +2 Surgical Exctraction, +1 Seal of cleasing, +2 PTE, +2 Council's Judgment, +1 SOWAP

My doubts:
- cut all phyrexian revoker?(actually in maverick are present 2-3 equipment)
- could you not cut prelates and/or 1 recruiter instead of 1/2 phyrexian?
- cut jitte?
- putting 2 RIP does not risk to have 2 dead cards as surgical?

I'm waiting for your directions.

NB: Have you a Spreadsheet of "side" complete? Or do you know what to put up and take off (on the play and on the draw) against these actually deck?

Thanks

[potentia]

Hi "D&t" players,
I have doubts concerning the saidboarding (cut and put card post-side) against the new maverick because on the thraben university there are no news related to this match up.

This could be an example list of the new maverick:

//NAME:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Renegade Rallier
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Council's Judgment
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
4 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wasteland
//Sideboard
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

My list (for my meta):

4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
1 Palace Jailer
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Karakas
12 Plains (6 normal and 6 snow-covered)
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

//Sideboard

SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Surgical Exctraction
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Seal of cleasing
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 1 Sword of war and peace

My sideboarding for Maverick is:
Out: -1 Aether Vial, -1 stoneforge, -1 Batterskull, -1 Jitte, -4 TGOT, -3 Phyrexian Revoker
In: +2 RIP, +1 Containment Priest, +2 Surgical Exctraction, +1 Seal of cleasing, +2 PTE, +2 Council's Judgment, +1 SOWAP

My doubts:
- cut all phyrexian revoker?(actually in maverick are present 2-3 equipment)
- could you not cut prelates and/or 1 recruiter instead of 1/2 phyrexian?
- cut jitte?
- putting 2 RIP does not risk to have 2 dead cards as surgical?

I'm waiting for your directions.

NB: Have you a Spreadsheet of "side" complete? Or do you know what to put up and take off (on the play and on the draw) against these actually deck?

Thanks

General speaking:
1. Don't board out your Vial and equipment.
2. Mirran Crusader + any equipment is hell for them. Have a Mom to protect it.
3. Revoker hits KoTR too.

I would go:
-4 Thalia, -1 Prelate
+2 RiP, +2 CJ, +1 SoWP