[Deck] Eva Green - B/g suicide

[FTW]

It sounds like you want to play Bg aggro-control (creatures & disruption) and not Loam Pox or Depths/other combo. That is Eva Green then.

The Loam + Raven's Crime + Mox Diamond engine has synergy but it works better in a Pox deck. You don't really need it. Look at the rest of the Eva Green thread for ideas.

You can get better access to green by running Prismatic Vista and Forest. These days 2-color decks do not need to have only black fetches into Bayou when there are up to 8 fetches that get both colors of basics (Verdant + Vista). You can also overload on Boseijus, using the first one as a "Forest" if you need to. It's a much better topdeck than any other green land!

Here's an example of some changes you could make


//Lands: 20
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Bayou
5 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Boseiju, Who Endures
1 Castle Locthwain

//Creatures: 18
2 Hexdrinker
4 Dauthi Voidwalker
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nighthawk Scavenger
3 Opposition Agent
1 Tourach, Dread Cantor

//Spells: 20
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
3 Fatal Push
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Sudden Edict

//Enchantments: 2
2 Sylvan Library

//Sideboard: 15
3 Plague Engineer
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Choke
2 Powder Keg
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Run Afoul


I suggest Powder Keg instead of Ratchet Bomb because Keg kills artifact lands in the popular artifact decks. It misses Enchantments, but you already have Decay and Boseiju to hit those so you should be fine.

You may like the new card Unlicensed Hearse. It eats graveyards while turning your small creatures into big threats. I am not sure if that makes it better than Nihil Spellbomb's card draw, but it's worth testing.

Sylvan Library is more card draw without the Loam engine.

Hexdrinker is a cheap threat that can sink extra mana later in the game.

1 mana removal (Fatal Push) is useful in some fast matchups like Delver. I added SB Run Afoul because Murktide Regent cannot be killed by Fatal Push or Abrupt Decay. Sudden Edict and Run Afoul do answer it. They also answer instant speed Marit Lage, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Griselbrand. You may still want to find room for the 1 Torpor Orb if your meta has decks like Doomsday, Goblins, Esper Vial, Cephalid Breakfast, Death & Taxes..

[Reeplcheep]

So the plan now :
- Black has some nice creatures that are bear-like but carrying some added abilities (voidwalker, ...) that i find very interesting in the meta. I plan to win with them on the battlefield so basically i am playing a fair deck. Those creatures are in the 2-3 range for power and in the 2-3 range too for casting cost. That is much too slow to be a tempo deck so i need some controle and/or CA elements in my deck. Abilities on the creatures will help my plan but i will need more of course. So basically, strategy will be disruption and controle, and when path is clear enough, swing with those creatures.

Ok so you want to be a creature centric midrange deck built around mox diamond. That has some implications:

• Without dark ritual the black 3 drops are not up to legacy power level. Dauthi voidwalker + discard and opposition agent really need to be cast on t1. 3 drops that die to bolt are very bad if not cast ahead of schedule.
• The original mox diamond/bob midrange deck was aggro loam. You should borrow heavily from that deck for inspiration.
• If you don’t want to play depths that is fine, but I would make sure you have rock solid mana. You won’t ever be as fast as depths or as powerful as 4c loam but at least you will be more resilient.
• These type of decks really need to play to the board. I would not play ravens crime since it is so tempo negative; it only fits in hard control decks.
• Imo, you need a minimum of 26 lands for mox diamond.

I do think you have a good niche here as 4c loam cutting white and red.

• Discard instead of chalice means you aren’t as reliant on mox diamond.
• PFire is medium nowadays, but you might want a light red splash for blasts
• Elvish reclaimer means you don’t need white anymore for a “KOTR”
• Boseiju gives you a reward for having stabler mana
• Basics are great

Cutting crimes and the expensive black creatures for elvish reclaimer and a gsz package:

// 4 Artifact
4 Mox Diamond

// 11 Creature
3 Elvish Reclaimer
4 Dark Confidant
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Shifting Ceratops
1 Endurance
1 Dryad Arbor

// 6 Instant
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Once upon a Time

// 25 Land
4 Wasteland
4 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Prismatic Vista
2 Boseiju, Who Endures
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Nuturing Peatland
1 Karakas

// 3 Planeswalker
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Grist, The Hunger Tide

// 11 Sorcery
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
2 Life from the Loam
4 Green Sun’s Zenith

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Torpor Orb
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 3 Plague Engineer
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 1 Outland Liberator
SB: 2 Inquisition of Kozilek

[Reeplcheep]

The reasoning:

• 1 grist over Liliana, 1 endurance and some sideboard green cards for GSZ reasons
• GSZ and ouat are the green brainstorm and ponder. You should play them in any deck that has sufficient hits.
• Reclaimer is often as big as your nighthawks. Nighthawks are better in the “don’t die to murktide role” but reclaimer for Maze of ith and ceratops should plug that gap.
• Added some lands for reclaimer and ouat/mox.
• Dauthi, 1 hymns, and tourack cut for the gsz package. Gsz fills out your curve better and lets you have more non black lands. Especially since you aren’t playing Urborg.

[KobeBryan]

I think going forward, if you want to play this deck, you need endurance and grief

[Purple Blood]

B/G will always be my favorite deck!

Since you have so many off-color lands, I think you should play at least one Urborg.

Nighthawk isn't playable to me. It can block Murktide but its just gonna die to Bolt or Heat and set you back 3/1 mana.

Agree with the other posters on GSZ package and maybe try to fit a Ramunap in, which can hardlock people with Wasteland and goes nicely with Liliana.

Vraska, Golgari Queen could be a nice grinding card in the sideboard.

[Albarkhane]

Thank you for all those advice and hints, i will try to adress them all.

You can get better access to green by running Prismatic Vista and Forest. These days 2-color decks do not need to have only black fetches into Bayou when there are up to 8 fetches that get both colors of basics (Verdant + Vista). You can also overload on Boseijus, using the first one as a "Forest" if you need to. It's a much better topdeck than any other green land!

//Lands: 20
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Bayou
5 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Boseiju, Who Endures
1 Castle Locthwain

//Creatures: 18
2 Hexdrinker
4 Dauthi Voidwalker
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nighthawk Scavenger
3 Opposition Agent
1 Tourach, Dread Cantor

//Spells: 20
4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtseize
3 Fatal Push
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Sudden Edict

//Enchantments: 2
2 Sylvan Library

//Sideboard: 15
3 Plague Engineer
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Choke
2 Powder Keg
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Run Afoul

I am fetching most of the time for basic so i can only agree about Vista + basic lands, it is a good plan when playing 2 colors only. I got them and tested some games. I am not yet sure about the right balance and for now i am using 3 vista + 3 bayou instead of the 4/2 splits you are suggesting. I like to naturally draw my bayou and double BB is quite a strong requirement too.
The third Boseiju is good idea too if enough space for it. On that topic, i see in your list that you suggest not to play wasteland. I am a bit surprised as they are almost auto-include for me in any fair deck that can afford them. Is it just a space consideration or there is a deeper reasoning for that (meta) ? Wastelands are quite synergic with opposition agent so it looks interesting to run them.

I suggest Powder Keg instead of Ratchet Bomb because Keg kills artifact lands in the popular artifact decks. It misses Enchantments, but you already have Decay and Boseiju to hit those so you should be fine.

You may like the new card Unlicensed Hearse. It eats graveyards while turning your small creatures into big threats. I am not sure if that makes it better than Nihil Spellbomb's card draw, but it's worth testing.

Sylvan Library is more card draw without the Loam engine.

Hexdrinker is a cheap threat that can sink extra mana later in the game.

1 mana removal (Fatal Push) is useful in some fast matchups like Delver. I added SB Run Afoul because Murktide Regent cannot be killed by Fatal Push or Abrupt Decay. Sudden Edict and Run Afoul do answer it. They also answer instant speed Marit Lage, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Griselbrand. You may still want to find room for the 1 Torpor Orb if your meta has decks like Doomsday, Goblins, Esper Vial, Cephalid Breakfast, Death & Taxes..

I was using ratchet bomb instead of Powder Keg because it can hit planewalkers but you are right, keg is better in the current meta. Run afoul looks interesting, i will test it. Sylvan library is under test now but i have not done enough to be sure for the moment.
I am much less convinced by unlicensed hearse and hexdrinker (that one requires lots of mana to become a real threat and i rather have a creature that has some disruption instead). But i will test them both when i have more time.

Now the core question ... Dark ritual or no dark ritual
The list you are suggesting is quite similar to the one i used when i tried dark ritual. However your list is better balanced and probably more efficient.

I usually consider that dark ritual is good in combo decks (such as storm) because you don't care card disadvantage when you are going to win in the turn. When you want to use it in another deck, the risk must be worth it.

Our best turn one play is probably : swamp + dark ritual + opposition agent. It is a strong play but is it strong enough ?

It is sort of similar to the old school classic dark ritual into hypnotic specter. In old school context it is almost always the good play because answers are only sword to plawshare or bolt (and in some corner cases a counterspell). If hypnotic specter is not answered in a few turns, you win because of CA.

Let's have a look at opposition agent play now :
- We have 14.5% (OTP) or 18.4% (OTD) to have those both cards for a turn 1 play (considering we play 4 of each).
- There are much more answers in legacy than in old school so chance are higher to be on the wrong side of a 1-2 cards.
- Effect is devastating if opponent has only fetchlands in hand but quite average if opponent has 1-2 basic/dual lands (running wastelands can help partialy here). It depends much of the deck we are facing but if a rough estimation is 50% that means we have about 8% to have a great play.
To summary, that is not so bad but IMHO not enough to be the only reason to play dark ritual. So what are other interesting plays with dark ritual ?

We can play quicker our creatures. That is great but chances are high that the first creature that hits the battlefield will be dealt with so we are again 1-2 cards. We can play thoughtseize + hymn to tourach but that play is actually 3-3 cards so it depends a lot on how we can wreck opponent hand with that discard. Thougthseize + Bob looks a strong play as we get some protection for our Bob.

There are probably other plays that i am missing here but if we go back to the question : is it worth the risk of 1-2 ? I am a bit dubious ...

What do you think ?

I think going forward, if you want to play this deck, you need endurance and grief

Grief is under test now. Endurance needs GG and that can be a problem but it is probably worth a try.

I see that post is already quite long so i will stop it here and will adress other advice later (going more green was not in my mind at first but it is interesting and i will have to look more deeply at what was suggested).

[FTW]

I am fetching most of the time for basic so i can only agree about Vista + basic lands, it is a good plan when playing 2 colors only. I got them and tested some games. I am not yet sure about the right balance and for now i am using 3 vista + 3 bayou instead of the 4/2 splits you are suggesting. I like to naturally draw my bayou and double BB is quite a strong requirement too.

3-3 split should be fine. I was torn between 3-3 or 4-2. They have different advantages. 3 Bayou is slightly weaker to nonbasic hate but more flexible for early BB or G.

The third Boseiju is good idea too if enough space for it. On that topic, i see in your list that you suggest not to play wasteland. I am a bit surprised as they are almost auto-include for me in any fair deck that can afford them. Is it just a space consideration or there is a deeper reasoning for that (meta) ? Wastelands are quite synergic with opposition agent so it looks interesting to run them.

There's tight competition for non-black lands. You want 16 black lands to play BB cards like Hymn to Tourach and Dauthi Voidwalker.
4 Verdant + 4 Vista + 2 Bayou + 6 black = 16
4 Verdant + 3 Vista + 3 Bayou + 6 black = 16

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is bad with Opposition Agent (their unused fetch can tap for black), so Urborg cannot help BB.

That leaves little room for non-black sources. You need at least 1 basic Forest. That's minimum 17 land slots taken up. After that, both Wasteland and Boseiju, Who Endures are very strong. I think Boseiju is better because it answers more things and helps green mana. Boseiju still answers the most dangerous nonbasics in the meta, but it cannot manascrew them for tempo. To play both Boseiju and Wasteland you need to increase the land count. So you have to ask yourself if Wasteland is better than another nonland card, even at the risk of mana flood (23-24 lands). Maybe it is.

I am much less convinced by unlicensed hearse and hexdrinker (that one requires lots of mana to become a real threat and i rather have a creature that has some disruption instead). But i will test them both when i have more time.

Hexdrinker has been strong in other decks. 2/1 for G trades with many creatures. It just needs Level 3 to become dangerous (4/4 protection from Removal). After that it becomes a good mana sink against flooding, like Nantuko Shade used to be in the old decks. You don't want 4 copies, but 1-2 is not much strain on the mana.

I am not sure about Hearse. It fills a niche: graveyard hate that keeps eating the graveyard. That effect is strong in the current meta vs Dragon's Rage Channeler, Murktide Regent, Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath, and other cards that use the graveyard as fuel. Nihil Spellbomb will exile things once but then they can quickly refill the graveyard with more cards. Hearse keeps eating away at their resources, like a Relic of Progenitus that can target. It also helps your small 2/x creatures beat through bigger creatures (Crew 2). I think it has enough potential to deserve testing, but could still be worse than Nihil Spellbomb.

Now the core question ... Dark ritual or no dark ritual

You basically have to choose between
a) Dark Ritual
b) Mox (Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond)
c) no acceleration

Dark Ritual and Mox are both card disadvantage, but they also power out disruption and engines faster. You just need ways to catch up on cards. Dark Confidant, Sylvan Library, or other ways to draw cards. I like Sylvan because it adds more things they need to answer to stop you gaining cards.

Mox are better for powering out 2-mana cards early (Dark Confidant, Sylvan Library, Life from the Loam, Chalice of the Void).

Dark Ritual is better with 3 mana payoffs (Opposition Agent, Liliana, Nighthawk). But it's still good for plays like T1 Thoughtseize + Confidant, T2 Confidant/Voidwalker + Hymn, or T2 Grief.

With no acceleration there's no card disadvantage. But also no speed. Then you have to ask yourself if your 1s and 2s are at a high enough power level to compete with other low-cost creatures in the format. Unless you're on Death's Shadow or Hogaak, Risen Necropolis, there's nothing in black that can match Dragon's Rage Channeler at 1 mana or Murktide Regent at 2 mana. Green has Elvish Reclaimer, but that wants land combos.

I think no acceleration is a bad idea until black gains better 1-mana creatures. But maybe Chrome Mox is better than Dark Ritual with your creatures.

If you want 24 lands for Wasteland & Boseiju together, then Mox Diamond looks better. Then Life from the Loam and Elvish Reclaimer look better too.

[KobeBryan]

Here's the problem with this deck. There are so many graveyard strategies out right now that filling the graveyard is the game plan. This destroys this deck in trying to clear out the board and into the graveyard

then you got this fooking card called Uro. There is absolutely NOTHING that that BG can do that is better than that card. When Uro sticks, it sucks. BG needs a card on the BG color to even consider playing BG. this is the same as rock decks. Blue is too good right now.

[FTW]

Here's the problem with this deck. There are so many graveyard strategies out right now that filling the graveyard is the game plan. This destroys this deck in trying to clear out the board and into the graveyard

then you got this fooking card called Uro. There is absolutely NOTHING that that BG can do that is better than that card. When Uro sticks, it sucks. BG needs a card on the BG color to even consider playing BG. this is the same as rock decks. Blue is too good right now.

Do Dauthi Voidwalker and Unlicensed Hearse help that problem? Monoblack and Tomb decks are getting reasonable results with those cards. Not Tier 1, but playable.

[KobeBryan]

I also believe whatever card you play in the nighthawk slot, you play thieves guild enforcer

[KobeBryan]

Do Dauthi Voidwalker and Unlicensed Hearse help that problem? Monoblack and Tomb decks are getting reasonable results with those cards. Not Tier 1, but playable.

Do you really want to play unlicensed hearse main deck? We have lots of answers to creatures so uros aren't really an issue. I just find that i don't want to fuel their uros and uros are the king right now. That being said, why not just play our own damn uros instead of playing a deck without uros. Decks with Uros have so many cards that fuel the engine.

I found Dauthi Voidwalker to be so goddamn slow that it doesn't make a difference. I don't know about you guys.

I find that Murderous rider should be a 2 of since that is OUR brazen borrower, but with a better effect.

I think Boseiju should be a 2 as a utility card for us.

I refuse to dump tarmogoyf. One being, this is eva green. Two being, I had a chance to trade 4 goyfs for a tabernacle and I didn't.

Ignoble may be better than dark ritual if you are playing endurance, which I believe should be in this deck.

Stop being cheap with utility graveyard hate post board. Just run your fucking 4 leylines.

[KobeBryan]

I added SB Run Afoul because Murktide Regent cannot be killed by Fatal Push or Abrupt Decay. Sudden Edict and Run Afoul do answer it. They also answer instant speed Marit Lage, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Griselbrand.

I understand the Run afoul, but eva green runs plenty of creature removal and things that destroy stuff. Sudden edict wouldn't really be affected by people going wide on us.

I mean, how often do you lose this game where people went wide on you? The only games where people go wide on us is that fuckin deck with 5/5 colorless creatures and endbringer (forgot the name). Beating that deck requires tarmogoyfs and resource destruction so we don't need a card like run afoul anyways. Which leaves us to why use this card.

Every other deck, we control the board. Goblins, we got plague engineer, Elves, we can kill these fuckers. Monestary Mentor, we got plague engineer. And if they go 10 wide, you lost the game anyways.

Delver they don't beat us with more than 1 delver or DRC anyways. They usually don't have a board prescence. That deck beats us on card quality and stopping our threats. We have superior creatures than them too so they cannot afford to trade us 1 for 1. Remember, Eva green was made to out-tempo tempo

So that leaves us with decks like Marit lage, who doesn't have more than 1 creature on the board anyways. So why run "run afoul"

[Albarkhane]

Ok so you want to be a creature centric midrange deck built around mox diamond. That has some implications:

• Without dark ritual the black 3 drops are not up to legacy power level. Dauthi voidwalker + discard and opposition agent really need to be cast on t1. 3 drops that die to bolt are very bad if not cast ahead of schedule.
• The original mox diamond/bob midrange deck was aggro loam. You should borrow heavily from that deck for inspiration.
• If you don’t want to play depths that is fine, but I would make sure you have rock solid mana. You won’t ever be as fast as depths or as powerful as 4c loam but at least you will be more resilient.
• These type of decks really need to play to the board. I would not play ravens crime since it is so tempo negative; it only fits in hard control decks.
• Imo, you need a minimum of 26 lands for mox diamond.

The deck is planned to be creature centric but mox diamond is just an option. As far as my tests go, diamond seems to be the best option but i am not sold on it yet. Acceleration is a must and the deck is really bad without some. I agree that 3 drops are bad unless they can be casted ahead of shedule but they get even worse if they die ahead of shedule while a dark ritual was used to cast them.
I used to play some loam decks and depths decks so i quite know them. There are indeed some interesting options there but i wanted to try something different.

I do think you have a good niche here as 4c loam cutting white and red.

• Discard instead of chalice means you aren’t as reliant on mox diamond.
• PFire is medium nowadays, but you might want a light red splash for blasts
• Elvish reclaimer means you don’t need white anymore for a “KOTR”
• Boseiju gives you a reward for having stabler mana
• Basics are great

The reasoning:

• 1 grist over Liliana, 1 endurance and some sideboard green cards for GSZ reasons
• GSZ and ouat are the green brainstorm and ponder. You should play them in any deck that has sufficient hits.
• Reclaimer is often as big as your nighthawks. Nighthawks are better in the “don’t die to murktide role” but reclaimer for Maze of ith and ceratops should plug that gap.
• Added some lands for reclaimer and ouat/mox.
• Dauthi, 1 hymns, and tourack cut for the gsz package. Gsz fills out your curve better and lets you have more non black lands. Especially since you aren’t playing Urborg.

That path is quite different from what i was leaning toward but it looks an interesting path. I will have to test such a list as i am no expert with 4C loam.
- A GSZ package is a nice idea. I did not check a lot the available green creatures yet but there are some that could be nice silver bullets for my plan.
- Nighthawk can be used to block murktide but it will often die to a bolt soon. His real function is lifegain (if he can stay on field long enough) in that matchup. i am not fond of Maze of Ith against murktide (in my attack phase i don't want a big untapped blocker). Shifting Ceratops is nice but not sure if it is worth 4 mana with double green.
- I agree that a stable/resilient mana base is important and i want to run as much basic as possible.

B/G will always be my favorite deck!
Since you have so many off-color lands, I think you should play at least one Urborg.
Nighthawk isn't playable to me. It can block Murktide but its just gonna die to Bolt or Heat and set you back 3/1 mana.
Agree with the other posters on GSZ package and maybe try to fit a Ramunap in, which can hardlock people with Wasteland and goes nicely with Liliana.
Vraska, Golgari Queen could be a nice grinding card in the sideboard.

Urborg is not combo with opposition agent as it allows him to cast spells using his fetchlands. I don't run it because of that.
I had forgotten about Vraska, Golgari Queen but she could be a fun try. The + ability will require some setup but there is a nice potential with her ultimate.

[FTW]

I also believe whatever card you play in the nighthawk slot, you play thieves guild enforcer

Thieves' Guild Enforcer is bad in Legacy, where opponents cannibalize their own graveyards (Murktide, Uro, Hogaak, Loam, Echo, Endurance, Emry). The floor is vanilla 1/1 - not worth a card - and happens often. It would be a lot better if the deathtouch was unconditional so it could at least trade as a blocker.

Nighthawk's floor is a 1/3 flying lifelink deathtouch and grows with a single card in GY. It can always drain life and trade with creatures. The bad part is the mana cost, so it trades badly with removal. Maybe Nighthawk is not good enough, but Enforcer is not it.

Unfortunately black lacks good 1-drops for tempo beatdown. Until then, you either go heavier on green (Reclaimer, Hierarch) or you need acceleration to get to good black plays. Or you lean into Grief shenanigans (Undying Evil).

Voidwalker is too slow to hate out combo, but it's a good attacker and MD grave hate matters in a lot of fair matches (Murktide, Uro). For combo there is SB.

The green plan has merit if you want to force Endurance. 4 Ignoble 4 Goyf 3 Endurance 3 Decay. Grist. Maybe GSZ into Arbor. Maybe Hexdrinker or Reclaimer. But all of that makes it harder to play Hymn.

You can't play Uro here. UUGG doesn't mix with BB. Adding Uro means -4 Hymn -other BB cards + blue cantrips -> 4c Yorion or BUG Aluren

[FTW]

I understand the Run afoul, but eva green runs plenty of creature removal and things that destroy stuff. Sudden edict wouldn't really be affected by people going wide on us.

Marit Lage. Random Elvish Reclaimer or Sylvan Safekeeper can't stop your Edict. There's also mana efficiency. You don't have to hold open 2 mana all game (in case of surprise ESG + Crop Rot into EOT Lage), so you can actually tap lands to play threats. Since the deck doesn't have much offense at 1 mana, that matters.

The other usecases are also tempo and mana efficiency. 1 mana instead of 2, for things that don't die to Push and Decay. Against SneakShow you only have to hold open 1 mana, so you can play threats. Against Reanimator you can kill a resolved fatty on turn 1 instead of waiting till turn 2. Against Delver, killing Murktide for 1 mana is better tempo (especially when they temporarily lost Delirium for DRC). Sudden Edict is good too, but more mana.

Against go-wide both are bad and you already have other tools.

Against midrange decks sometimes you get their Baleful Strix/Ice-Fang Coatl or Yorion even when they have a random dork out. Those are minor cases though.

[Mr. Safety]

The new 4 mana 4/5 is what this deck wants, it gains you life for every draw, meaning it's bonkers with Sylvan library. You even go +2 life playing janky stuff like Sign in Blood or Nights Whisper. It also drains opponents who play Brainstorm or other draw effects. It's a threat that rewards you for playing discard, which forces opponents into playing their draw effects aggressively. It passes the Bolt test and hits pretty hard. It's probably the best card that black midrange had seen in years. Unfortunately I think the best spot for it is in a blue deck, namely Grixis control, which does the same thing but with Brainstorms and lots of ancillary draw.

[Fox]

A 4/5 for 4 mana is kinda format ruining in a limited environment, and the deathtouch and passives magnify that limited-ruining potential....but in legacy you're just turning on the most common types of interaction. The passives do not represent inevitability, and you still have to both catch up to and then outpace an 8/8 MurkGoyf that came out quicker (and remember your 4 mana dude has some Daze issues).

The passives are definitely good (on par with a PW emblem), but you have to drag the game on with controlling elements. At some point you have to look at Karn's passive being able to control and keep you alive vs a wide range of decks (particularly combo). Then you have to ask why we're doing Sheoldred things into hostile Karakas when Karn can get most of the benefit by wishing out Alhammaret's Archive or a wincon.

Sheoldred is not a great financial investment. So unless you want exactly 1 with backup mode "need this for my cube", it's a pretty hard sell.

[KobeBryan]

I think so far the only csrd that made it into the deck is cut down.

Run 3 cut downs and 3 abrupt decay. There shouldnt be much we cant answer. Maybe a big murktide, but we couldnt answer it before anyways.

[KobeBryan]

Ooo that new card uurg is something this deck needs to fix the draws

[FTW]

Why Cut Down? Fatal Push seems much better. What creatures have CMC > 4 but P/T adding up to 5 or less?