[Deck] Eva Green - B/g suicide

[klaus]

I personally run into an assload of Goblins and Threshold decks that don't utilize artifacts or enchantments too much

With Eva's LD plan, it can be a game-breaking move to destroy a Vial.
Against Threshold, CB, B2B, Oblivion Ring are worthy targets, but not all builds run those.

I don't see how you would need Seal vs. Landstill anyways since that is a pretty favorable match-up for you.

Having outs to Humility G1 and being able to answer a possible Turn2 Standstill preemptively is a huge plus.
Also, I don't mind being able to get rid of other stuff like CoW, EE and Deed.
Being a LS player myself, I must say the MU is only very slightly favorable for the Eva Green player - and this is mostly due to Chokes. That fact makes G1s more decisive in consequence - keep in mind you are likely to be going to time against LS G3, no matter what you're playing.

[Blackened]

Vial in my opinion isn't worth keeping Grips/Seals in against Goblins. Though the deck does utilize some LD pieces, it usually isn't enough to slow them down. But I do understand there are chances it will. I find keeping Plagues/Deeds in help a lot more than destroying their Vial.

[nitewolf9]

Seal is excellent game 1 against goblins, as that deck is very mana hungry. It also makes your tarmogoyfs enormous to blow up one of their vials (more of a bonus but it has been relevant while racing). There are only 4 targets for them, but those 4 targets are one of the best tools goblins has against you. Post board they come out with sinkholes because the LD plan is inferior to the "you lose to engineered plague" plan.

I'm not sure if the Goblins matchup is where you want to be looking for an argument against seal though. You should be pretty favored already, whatever you wind up running in that slot. I would never board pernicious deed in against goblins (I wouldn't have it in my sideboard to begin with, but if I did I wouldn't bring it in here).

I duno, I will grant that maybe something else in the seal slot could be good if you have a very narrow, defined metagame and some bomb would be better in its spot (like jitte in a very aggro meta with almost no control present), but that card has been nothing but awesome whenever I play this deck.

[Blackened]

I'm for no just testing out the Deeds, but the Plagues are a definite include. You're right though, the matchup is easy as is, but there's nothing wrong with guaranteeing it by laying a Plague on the table.

[Aus-Rotten]

How easy is it to hate Eva Green out of a metagame?

[nitewolf9]

How easy is it to hate Eva Green out of a metagame?

Here you go, just play this:

4 diabolic edict
2 smother
2 vedalken shackles

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 sensei's divning top

3 counterbalance
4 daze
4 force of will
4 divert

4 dodecapod
4 tombstalker

4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
4 underground sea
1 watery grave
4 island
1 swamp

[DalkonCledwin]

Here you go, just play this:

4 diabolic edict
2 smother
2 vedalken shackles

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 sensei's divning top

3 counterbalance
4 daze
4 force of will
4 divert

4 dodecapod
4 tombstalker

4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
4 underground sea
1 watery grave
4 island
1 swamp

hmmm... I don't really like that decks chances against Eva Green. Sure, it looks good on paper, but the deck relies solely on not having its Dodecapod, or Vedalken Shackles hit by a Krosan Grip, and in turn losing tempo due to not having enough advantage to take the game away.

[URABAHN]

hmmm... I don't really like that decks chances against Eva Green. Sure, it looks good on paper, but the deck relies solely on not having its Dodecapod, or Vedalken Shackles hit by a Krosan Grip, and in turn losing tempo due to not having enough advantage to take the game away.

I was just talking to nitewolf about this last night, Misdirection on Hymn is bad for just about any suicide strategy and that's a 3 for 2. Imagine a 3 for 1 in the form of Divert. Smother and Edict are more than sufficient to take out Eva's creatures and Shackles are a headache for Eva Green. With that being said, I wouldn't play a deck that takes Eva Green to the woodshed without knowing how it does against every other deck in the format.

[nitewolf9]

Just for the record that deck was supposed to be a joke (rather obviously due to dodecapod...). But yes, divert seems very good against suicide.

[DalkonCledwin]

Just for the record that deck was supposed to be a joke (rather obviously due to dodecapod...). But yes, divert seems very good against suicide.

yeah, I agree, Divert, and Misdirection (as well as all similarly worded spells) would be incredible against any Suicide deck. However I don't know of too many decks that actually run them.

On a flip side I agree with Urabahn in his statement that I wouldn't play the "joke deck" without knowing how it does against all other decks in the format aside from Suicide decks.

[Nihil Credo]

I was thinking about it and I suspect that a properly built Faeries deck should trump the shit out of Eva Green or any Suicide variant, for that matter. Ancestral Visions is about as good recovery from discard as can be found, in addition to the usual protection provided by Top and Brainstorm. Counterbalance and Bitterblossom put stress on Seal of Primordium's problem-solving ability (and Scion can protect the game-breaking Bitterblossom). Hypnotic Specter should never connect unless Ritualed on turn 1, and even then only once or twice. Sowers of Temptations are nasty against Eva Green's fatties, and finally the manabase can be quite resilient if you're willing to forgo tricks like Riptide Laboratory (or even Mutavault), especially if you also use Chrome Moxes.

Just a 3 AM idea. I did a few two-fisted, preboard games on MWS and it came out 4-2 in favour of Faeries, but I'm not really trusting my results at this time in the night.

Edit: Morning after, I remember that Eva Green usually runs Plagues in the SB. That would need addressing, I guess.

[DalkonCledwin]

I was thinking about it and I suspect that a properly built Faeries deck should trump the shit out of Eva Green or any Suicide variant, for that matter. Ancestral Visions is about as good recovery from discard as can be found, in addition to the usual protection provided by Top and Brainstorm. Counterbalance and Bitterblossom put stress on Seal of Primordium's problem-solving ability (and Scion can protect the game-breaking Bitterblossom). Hypnotic Specter should never connect unless Ritualed on turn 1, and even then only once or twice. Sowers of Temptations are nasty against Eva Green's fatties, and finally the manabase can be quite resilient if you're willing to forgo tricks like Riptide Laboratory (or even Mutavault), especially if you also use Chrome Moxes.

Just a 3 AM idea. I did a few two-fisted, preboard games on MWS and it came out 4-2 in favour of Faeries, but I'm not really trusting my results at this time in the night.

hmm.... a well built Eva Green deck, should be capable of dealing with faeries quite easily... The build I am planning to play with for example is quite capable of taking out Bitterblossom tokens even with Scion of Oona in play, not to mention being capable of more or less shutting down Counterbalance. Well, Faeries may be a more difficult match up, but it certainly isn't unwinnable. It all depends on the build, and the player of the Eva Green deck in question.

[Captain Hammer]

I asked about Card Advantage in Black Aggro - Phyrexian Arena Vs. The Alternatives elsewhere, but not here.

I want to play a card in my eva green variant (it's not playing Hyppe at the moment) that offers some form of card advantage.

I wanted to share my opinions on the different options and get your take on each of them.

And I wanted you to share any black card advantage sources that I may have missed.

a.) Hymn to Tourach

- No discussion of card advantage in black would be complete without mentioning this card. Not only is it pure card advantage. But it can easily screw over your opponents game plan and first several turns, and given it's speed, it provides one of blacks strongest tools against the combo matchup. In short, if you can support BB casting cost, there is really no reason not to play it, it's that good.

b.) Skeletal Scrying

- This is a very strong card that would rank high on the list usually mainly just because if the fast aggro plan works and you have an empty board in the midgame, this card would singlehandedly help you recover. But as I mentioned earlier, I wanted to go into this with the assumption that any aggressive black aggro build is already playing 4 Tombstalker. Given this stipulation, I don't think the dyssnergy between the two is justifiable when there are so many alternatives.

c.) Night's Whispers

- A mini undercosted Skeletal Scrying without the aforementioned drawback. The only real concern regarding this card is that drawing just two cards doesn't seem like an awful lot. Spending two mana for +1 card advantage doesn't seem super efficient for an aggressive deck. But then again, it's all that Predict and a 3 casting cost Mulldrifter offer, and both those see play. It's not even that far off from what Standstill offers, so I think it would rank pretty high.

d.) Hypnotic Specter

- I think that the faster and faster that legacy becomes, and the more and more efficent that creatures become, the less powerful this card seems. Off of a turn one ritual, Hippie is absolutely fierce. But without a ritual handy, it won't hit the opponent till turn 4, and in legacy, plenty of decks won't have anything worthwhile left in their hand by then. Where as cards like Phyrexian Arena offer lategame staying power, this primarily offers early game disruption, which would be fine, were it not for the high casting cost.

e.) Pernicious Deed

- Not exactly monoblack. But given that pretty much every black aggro variant is splashing green already to play Goyfs, I thought that this too is worth a mention. Then again, it creates dissnyergy with the low casting cost Goyf that were the reason for splashing green in the first place. And Deed is probably a bit too mana intensive for any black aggro deck.

f.) Dark Confidant

- Again, no discussion of card advantage in black would be complete without mentioning Confidant. But then again, given the earlier stipulation, that the theoretical black aggro deck being discussed is playing 4 Snuff Out and 4 Tombstalker, the potential life loss from Confidant approaches dangerous levels. Throw in the 4 Thoughtseize and some fetchlands, and the life loss becomes unacceptable in my humble opinion.

b.) Phyrexian Arena

- This is a card that is almost never considered in Black Aggro. But I think that's a mistake. Yes, it's not quite as cheap as Confidant, but the lifeloss it provides is far more tolerable in a build with Tombstalker and Snuff Out, giving the card significant midgame and lategame staying power. It gives Rituals drawn after the first few turns, something to cast with all that mana. And being an enchantment, the card is also much harder to get rid of than Dark Confidant, and pumps Goyf if it is.

My Final Rankings in the Current Environment For An Aggressive Black Deck playing Tombstalker and Snuff Out...

1.) Hymn to Tourach
2/3.) Night's Whisper (can't decide if this is better than P. Arena)
3/2.) Phyrexian Arena (can't decide if this is better than Night's Whisper)
4.) Hypnotic Specter - Ranked low for the reasons mentioned above.
5.) Dark Confidant - Ranked low simply due to unacceptable lifeloss in a build with 4 Tombstalker and 4 Snuff Out.
6.) Pernicious Deed - Ranked low because of the need for a high mana investment in an aggressive deck, combined with the dysnergy with Goyf.
7.) Skeletal Scrying - Ranked low because of having to salvage from the same yard that Tombstalker and Goyf already salvage from and being mana intensive pigeon holing it to be a purely lategame card.

How would you rank these seven cards in a theoretical build with 4 Snuff Out and 4 Tombstalkers? Are there any other good black card advantage engines that I missed?

[rancOr_]

I'd play Phyrexian Arena over Night's Whisper.
It is much more consistent and hard to get rid off. If they dont destroy it,the CA will let you win the game. If you're playing mono black,u can easily support the BB. As for the rest of the list,if you were going to add something else, I suggest Hypnotic specter.

[ChillerKiller0815]

Hi Captain Hammer,
as I am an Eva Green player I will give you an idea of how I see the CA question.

Hymn to Tourach:
It´s an auto include, agreed. It generates a +1 CA, agreed. But Hymn isn´t played for its ability to generate CA. It´s being played because it disrupts the opponent’s early gameplan and has the chance of stalling him if you hit something critical like Land number 2.

If you look at a lot of suicide list (here EVA GREEN) you will notice that Snuff Out is being played. To understand my following thoughts it is important to understand why Snuff Out see´s play. So the question is: What is the general strategy of Eva Green (Suicide)?
Eva Green wants to disrupt the opponent and force him into the mid- lategame by playing stuff like Thoughtseize (Duress), Hymn to Tourach and Sinkhole. In order to be able to capitalize on that you need to drop quick massive threats that finish the game before the opponent can recover (Goyf, Shade, Stalker). So why does Snuff Out see play? Because it handles the first drops the opponent made and opens the way for your Critters without eating your early game resources you badly need for the critters or disruption.

Now if you keep this strategy in mind lets compare Phyrexian Arena and Hypnotic Specter:
If you play Dark Ritual + Arena: No threat, no disruption turn one and two (early game)
If you play Dark Ritual + Specter: A Threat, no disruption turn one but turn two + starting beat down.

If Arena is played turn three you will benefit on it turn 4, this is also true for the Specter. But by Turn three you should have played stuff like sinkhole, hymn or thoughtseize. Your opponent should still be stalled or way behind his normal gameplan. Now the Specter has the potential to keep up this situation for the rest of the game by ensuring that every more expensive card he would play will never see play. Whereas the Arena allows the opponent to recover from your disruption package. This means the Specter is sometimes enough to kill an opponent all by himself and there is a reason why people say : “Oh black, now comes the sick Ritual-Specter-Opening!”.
So basically the Arena offers the better CA, but doesn´t help your gameplan or general strategy at all.

Lets break it down to some matchups:
Combo: A first turn Specter is a good way of winning this matchup. Arena isn´t. This is based on the recurring free disruption while beating the same time.
Burn: Specter disrupts their spells draws a burn spell and carries a jitte. Arena cost life.
Control: These are the matchups we dominate, because this is where disruption shines. Arena doesn´t disrupt!
Aggro: Difficult matchups. At least Specter is a blocker that kills any gobbo (except Wort) and carries a jitte. Arena doesn´t.
To sum my thoughts up: Arena isn´t played because of its CA abilities but because of the lack of fitting the general gameplan. Suicide wins by disruption pared with fast beaters. Arena does nothing like that. Specter disrupts and is a small beater with evasion.  Specter >>> Arena

Hope this makes sense
ChillerKiller0815

[ChillerKiller0815]

Hi guys I play a big tournament next weekend (50-120 People expected). I am playing Eva Green with MD Extirpate for Seals and a single reanimate for the Shade #4.

As always there will be plenty of Thresh, Painter, ANT, Gobbos

I am not sure how the SB should look like. This is where I need your suggestions. To give you some thoughts what is possible I will make some suggestions myself:

Cards Possible:

Leyline
Choke
Engineered Plague
Jitte
Pithing Needle
Engineered Explosives
Powder Keg
Gaeaé Blessing (1-of)
Seal of Primordium
Krosan Grip
Pernicious Deed
Relict of Protegenius
Faerie Macabre
Diabolic Edict


As for now I think my SB could look something like this:

A)
4x Leyline
3x Choke
3x Engineered Explosives (is useable as Plague or as Seal)
2x Krosan Grip (vs. Painter and stuff like Counterbalance or late Moat, Humility, O-Ring)
3x Jitte




B) Classic
4x Leyline
4x Choke
4x Engineered Plague
3x Jitte

C) Not using Leyline
2x Faerie Macabre / Relict of Protegenius
1x Extirpate
3x Choke
3x Grip/Seal
3x Pithing Needle (Aether Vial, Survival, Top, Shackles, Grindstone, Belcher,…)
3x Jitte

D)
4x Leyline
4x Choke
3x E. Explosives
2x K. Grip
2x Diabolic Edict

Help and thoughts appreciated

Thx

[johanessen]

As you dont run any disenchant in MD you need some in SB.

About maindeck what about running 2 Extirpate 2 Reanimate instead of 3 and 1?

Then, SideBoard Cound Be...

3 Krosan Grip
3 Enginereed Plague
3 Choke
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Extirpate
1 Gaea's Blessing

[ChillerKiller0815]

Hi guys,
i am going on a big turnament this weekend. i decided to play 3 Extirpates MD instead of 3xSeal of Primodium. Now I have to play some Seal/grips in the sideboard. I wondered if you guys think that the Leylines are now redundant and could be cutted from the SB if I put the 4th Extirpate in my SB? Is that enough grave hate?
Leyline was for:
Ichorid --> Ichorid, BfB
Loam --> LftL
SotF--> SotF, Squee, Genesis
Staxx--> Crucible

All of the cards can be dealed with Extirpate I think!

I mean ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh is pretty fucked if you extirpate a mongoose or goyf since they often only play 8 creatures.--> Just a thought

PLZ share your idea

THX

[humppa]

Are hypnotics really so good?

I found them usually "too slow", or "too small". Only few times they were useful - there was time and no defenders/stronger attackers.

I want to apologize, my sweet specter. In many latter games you work wonderful in Eva green. No one want to see you on the board, many times you won me "drag and go" latter game and many time you clear a way for my bigger beaters.
You have 4 slot in my deck without any doubts!
:-)

Another problem with Eva green - I play 3x Seal in MD, but it's not enough. Many decks in my metagame play Needles, so it is very easy for them to switch my seal off.
I'm looking for Pernicious Deed and/or Krosan grip to SB, but I can't deside with card from SB put away. LotV, EPlague, Choke and Jittes are there right now. Any suggestions? What enchantment/artefact hate do you play?

[Unknown2]

i wouldn't run the jitte in the board, or at all for that matter

The thing is with that, is you don't want to lose tempo by equipping it to a creature that might get lost to removal.