[Deck] Eva Green - B/g suicide

[Patrunkenphat7]

Putrid Leech does seem good - but I have to ask myself if he's better enough to negate its disadvantages:
-Can't be cast by Dark Ritual
-Needs a bayou (or forest, yuck)
-Life Loss (not a huge issue)
-only pumpable to a 4/4, even late game

I think it is certainly better for the situations you're talking about - being able to block and battle other big guys with no mana input. However, I often find myself emptying my hand and not needing mana open middle-late game, and the shade often becomes a much more powerful finisher. A lot of it depends on what kinds of decks you see, but I think I'll stick with the shade. I really enjoy not needing the green mana in some games.

It's definitely good to debate between these guys, as I can see how some people would like the leech a lot more.

Now I'm gonna share my list, as I'm relatively new to this thread:

4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Nantuko Shade

4 Dark Ritual
2 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach

3 Snuff Out
4 Vindicate

4 Wasteland
2 Swamp
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath

SB - depends on what tournament I'm in. Because I have white, a couple StP are nice against the mirror and Bobs. Choke, E Plague, Jitte, and Leyline of the Void are also my usuals.

I've read some of this thread and noticed that many people do not like the white splash. I personally think that splashing for Vindicate makes this deck sooo much better, as it is essentially MD removal for anything annoying, and it can ever-importantly manascrew your opponents. This deck can still run off of a couple basic swamps if it needs to. I agree that Snuff Out is better than StP in this deck, but it is also nice to pack a couple StP's in the SB. For anyone who's never playtested Vindicate against a wide variety of decks, I highly suggest you do it. I personally feel like the advantages of Vindicate highly outweigh the disadvantages of having a few more nonbasic lands - the card straight up wins games.

I've just started playing with this deck, so I may find out that I want to change some things as time goes on. I plan on playing at a couple of the Starcity Legacy 5K's later this year.

Criticism is always welcome, and I'm sure I'll receive a little for my white splash

[Esper3k]

From my experience, I haven't been too impressed by the white splash. While I'll readily admit Vindicate is an amazing card, I just don't think it's right for this deck just for the splash.

First of all, Vindicate costs 3 and at sorcery speed, so I find myself oftentimes wishing it were a Snuff Out instead.

Also, the white spash makes your manabase much more succeptible to Moon or Wastelands. In my testing, a T1 Moon just rapes it because you don't have enough basic Swamps (heck, even with the normal version you can get smashed by a T1 Moon - this is even worse in the white splash version).

Cutting Seals makes your Goyf potential size smaller as you lose the ability to get an Enchantment in your graveyard - you have to rely on your opponent having an enchantment you can kill with Vindicate. This also prevents you from giving your Goyfs +2/+2 by cracking your Seal to kill an Artifact.

Granted, being able to deal with other black creatures, namely Dark Confidant or Tombstalker is really nice, but to me, when you're playing Eva Green, you're going all out. The deck needs to go full throttle for the throat every game and slowing it down just doesn't help you achieve your goal.

Just my $.02.

[Patrunkenphat7]

From my experience, I haven't been too impressed by the white splash. While I'll readily admit Vindicate is an amazing card, I just don't think it's right for this deck just for the splash.

First of all, Vindicate costs 3 and at sorcery speed, so I find myself oftentimes wishing it were a Snuff Out instead.

Also, the white spash makes your manabase much more succeptible to Moon or Wastelands. In my testing, a T1 Moon just rapes it because you don't have enough basic Swamps (heck, even with the normal version you can get smashed by a T1 Moon - this is even worse in the white splash version).

Cutting Seals makes your Goyf potential size smaller as you lose the ability to get an Enchantment in your graveyard - you have to rely on your opponent having an enchantment you can kill with Vindicate. This also prevents you from giving your Goyfs +2/+2 by cracking your Seal to kill an Artifact.

Granted, being able to deal with other black creatures, namely Dark Confidant or Tombstalker is really nice, but to me, when you're playing Eva Green, you're going all out. The deck needs to go full throttle for the throat every game and slowing it down just doesn't help you achieve your goal.

Just my $.02.

Thanks for the input, ultra fast response! haha

[nyoro]

From my experience, I haven't been too impressed by the white splash. While I'll readily admit Vindicate is an amazing card, I just don't think it's right for this deck just for the splash.

First of all, Vindicate costs 3 and at sorcery speed, so I find myself oftentimes wishing it were a Snuff Out instead.

Also, the white spash makes your manabase much more succeptible to Moon or Wastelands. In my testing, a T1 Moon just rapes it because you don't have enough basic Swamps (heck, even with the normal version you can get smashed by a T1 Moon - this is even worse in the white splash version).

Cutting Seals makes your Goyf potential size smaller as you lose the ability to get an Enchantment in your graveyard - you have to rely on your opponent having an enchantment you can kill with Vindicate. This also prevents you from giving your Goyfs +2/+2 by cracking your Seal to kill an Artifact.

Granted, being able to deal with other black creatures, namely Dark Confidant or Tombstalker is really nice, but to me, when you're playing Eva Green, you're going all out. The deck needs to go full throttle for the throat every game and slowing it down just doesn't help you achieve your goal.

Just my $.02.

well, vindicate also helps you better in cbtop matchup and to be able to play StP if you want. alot of white splash also run lotus petal instead of dark ritual to get some accel going or color fixing.

but T1 moon does kill, but so as to many other decks.

[Aus-Rotten]

If counterbalance is a problem then couldn't Maelstrom Pulse be used over the vindicate to keep the deck within 2 colors?

[Clark Kant]

Patrikurnup,

Not being able to cast Leech off of Ritual rarely proves to be a relevent issue. Playing Shade off of a turn one Ritual isn't exactly a back breaking play either. You would rather spend that two early black mana on Hymn or Sinkhole or that first turn Ritual to cast a Hyppe instead. I find the early game boon of Leech well worth it. As I said, its better even against aggro (the only match where your life total matters), since you can save it as a blocker to deter all attacks from 3/4s and below. Negator, Gouger and Shade can't do that unless you stop using mana to play spells every turn they have a creature

Moving on, I actually really like your list a lot. I do see the merit in those who say that the pritning of Pulse makes the white splash for vindicate unneeded but being able to mana screw your opponents by blowing up lands really is a big help.

I used to run a list almost identical to yours. The only real differences were that...

a.) the two slots you gave to nantuko shade, I gave to Doran, the Siege Tower

b.) those two cards that you gave to Duress, I gave to Reanimate.

It's definately something worth considering if your meta has a lot of creature based decks or aggro control or removal or counters.

Reanimate is one of those cards that gives you a ton of utility at an extremely low cost. It combos great with Thoughtseize, Snuff Out and many times with Hymn and Vindicate (all of which often get opponents creatures into their yard) and your opponents discard, removal and countermagic (often put your own goyf into the yard).

The Reanimate isn't that big a deal. But I really would consider replacing the Duress and Shade slots with the last Snuff Out and a different threat (Leech, Doran etc).

I do hope that you play something similar to your list at the SCG 5k tourney. I think you'll do rather well with it. Blood Moon is no where near as prevalent as people make it out to be.

[Esper3k]

well, vindicate also helps you better in cbtop matchup and to be able to play StP if you want. alot of white splash also run lotus petal instead of dark ritual to get some accel going or color fixing.

but T1 moon does kill, but so as to many other decks.

Seal is just fine against CB, especially if you get it down before CB hits.

I think playing Lotus Petal over Dark Ritual is not a good idea since you're losing that whole explosive factor that Eva Green tries to exploit. Also, without Dark Ritual, what are you trying to cast Turn 1 off a Lotus Petal that needs white?

T1 Moon can kill Eva Green, but the white splash is far far more succeptible to it than the standard decklist. Even barring the T1 Moon, a later game Moon cuts the standard decklist from fewer cards than the white splash. Worse, if you're running the white splash and you ended up cutting Snuff Out for Vindicate & STP, you no longer have any removal for a Magus. The standard deck list at least has the potential to deal with a Blood Moon with a preemptive Seal.

STP is a great card, but I think it's not a good card for Eva Green purely because of the life gain aspect. I shudder to say it, but I almost think Path to Exile might be better. When you're pushing damage on someone, that extra land may not give them the extra turn that a bunch of life will.

I agree with those who say if you really like Vindicate, just play Maelstrom Pulse and stay 2 colors at least. Yes, you can't kill a land with it, but I actually think land destruction is getting weaker and weaker in Legacy as a whole these days anyways.

[Esper3k]

For me, I do find the Nantuko Shade's BB cost to be a compelling selling factor over Putrid Leech's BG.

Oftentimes, I do find myself with a Dark Ritual, Thoughtseize and don't have Sinkhole/Hymn/Spectre, but Shade allows me to drop a very early threat on the board.

Later game, Shade is better than Leech as well, plus it gives you something to do with Dark Rituals you draw later on.

[Lance]

I'm a long time Eva player, so I tought I'd give my opinion here. I've played both Eva Green and Eva Green and white to great success in large and also smaller tourneys. Here the lists I played in both top's 8 in the larger ones (60+ players each):

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23684
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25357

Both decks are quite close imo, the white splash is:
-4 Snuff Out
-4 Sinkhole
+4 Sword to Plowshares
+4 Vindicate

No surprise here, those changes are obvious. Since I cut snuff out (high casting cost and lifeloss if played free), I could add confidant to the deck, wich is a good thing in a deck that lack draw power. And since i'm not a suicidal man, I cut 2 Tombstalker too.

Finally, I could cut a jitte since I had a better chance to see one with bob and I don't like having two legendary artifact in my startin' 7... I've choose to run 3 duress in those slots.

The two decks have their strenghs and weaknesses. The Green one has a far more stable manabase, wich is good. But the white one play the stronger spells...

Anyone who think that snuff out or sinkhole are as good as sword and vindicate in legacy are wrong in my opinion The life argument is ridiculous. When you hit each turn with a Tombstalker, a Goyf or a Nantuko shade while your opponent is in topdeck mode because of all your disruption, excuse me but 5 life or so won't make any difference! And anyone who tried the white version can tell that he won games on the back of an unanswered bob alone... But this has a price and that is a worse manabase.

That doesn't mean it's not a good deck, heck Nassif won a 1200+ tournament with a far more horrible mana base... Beside, if you play a similar version to mine, you have a good chance to duress // thoughtseize a Magus // Moon if you are on the play.

That said I love both decks, and I play both of them and will continue to do so in future's events.

PS. sorry for my english, keep in mind that's not my mother language

[Patrunkenphat7]

Patrikurnup,

Not being able to cast Leech off of Ritual rarely proves to be a relevent issue. Playing Shade off of a turn one Ritual isn't exactly a back breaking play either. You would rather spend that two early black mana on Hymn or Sinkhole or that first turn Ritual to cast a Hyppe instead. I find the early game boon of Leech well worth it. As I said, its better even against aggro (the only match where your life total matters), since you can save it as a blocker to deter all attacks from 3/4s and below. Negator, Gouger and Shade can't do that unless you stop using mana to play spells every turn they have a creature

Moving on, I actually really like your list a lot. I do see the merit in those who say that the pritning of Pulse makes the white splash for vindicate unneeded but being able to mana screw your opponents by blowing up lands really is a big help.

I used to run a list almost identical to yours. The only real differences were that...

a.) the two slots you gave to nantuko shade, I gave to Doran, the Siege Tower

b.) those two cards that you gave to Duress, I gave to Reanimate.

It's definately something worth considering if your meta has a lot of creature based decks or aggro control or removal or counters.

Reanimate is one of those cards that gives you a ton of utility at an extremely low cost. It combos great with Thoughtseize, Snuff Out and many times with Hymn and Vindicate (all of which often get opponents creatures into their yard) and your opponents discard, removal and countermagic (often put your own goyf into the yard).

The Reanimate isn't that big a deal. But I really would consider replacing the Duress and Shade slots with the last Snuff Out and a different threat (Leech, Doran etc).

I do hope that you play something similar to your list at the SCG 5k tourney. I think you'll do rather well with it. Blood Moon is no where near as prevalent as people make it out to be.

I don't have too much time to write a response right now, but I was wondering:
Has Putrid Leech worked better for you than Doran? Just curious. I still really like Shade but I'm always willing to try new ideas.

[Clark Kant]

I don't have too much time to write a response right now, but I was wondering:
Has Putrid Leech worked better for you than Doran? Just curious. I still really like Shade but I'm always willing to try new ideas.

It's hard to be sure, but yeah, I would say that I think I generally like Leech better than Doran. Doran was always good, and might be better against aggro, but generally, coming out a turn earlier, not competing with Vindicate for your turn three play, having fewer color requirements (this way, you only need to go for white when you need Vindicate assuming you still splash white), being able to apply pressure earlier, not getting slowed down by Wasteland and such all make the 2cc 4/4 (two carnophages fused onto the same card) better than the 3cc 5/5.

[coraz86]

Agreed. I really feel with Eva Green that you need the speed. It's not like playing Rock, you need to keep the pressure up to win; you don't want to be holding stuff because you can't cast it, you don't have that kind of time in a tempo deck.

[Centurion]

Yesterday I came in second in a small 13-man with Eva Green so I thought I'd write up a mini report.

My list was:
6 Swamp
4 Delta
4 Mire
3 Bayou
4 Wasteland

4 Goyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Shade

4 Ritual
3 Thoughtseize
1 Duress (I only have 3 seize)
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn
2 Reanimate
2 Maelstrom Pulse

SB:
4 Choke
3 Leyline
4 Engineered Plague
2 Pithing Needle
2 Jitte

Round 1, vs. Stefan Ellsworth (Nassif Thresh)
In game one a first turn Seize reveals a goyf (which I take), a trinket mage, a sower, and some lands. I put early pressure on him with a goyf and Hyppie of my own and he can't stabilize. Game 2 my second turn Hymn gets snared, but a resolved choke slows him down with only a goyf on the field. I play a goyf of my own, delve out a stalker to make the green dudes 2/3s and race.
Board: -1 Duress, -3 Shade, +4 Choke (Should have been -4 Sinkhole)

Round 2, vs. ??? (Tempo Thresh)
Game 1 quickly comes down to him beating me with a thresh'd mongoose and me swinging back with a Hyppie, but 3/3s beat 2/2s in races. I should have chumpblocked the last turn and prayed for a topdeck but I hadn't played in a while and was sloppy, figuring I'd just move on to the next game. Game 2 he also got an early mongoose out, but my goyf with Jitte was able to get there. Game 3I think I beat down with fliers while he never got red mana for Bolt.
Sideboard: -4 Sinkhole, -2 Snuff Out, +4 Choke, +2 Jitte

Round 3, vs. Brian Rizzaro (Coatl/Exalted CTop)
This was a cool deck and a long game. He was playing Pridemage and Hierarch as well as Coatl and Cold-Eye Selkie. The Hierarch's really put a damper on the LD aspects of Eva Green and can get really annoying in multiples. The first game was LONG. He got out an early Hierarch and Balance-Top lock while I had a Hyppie and Shade. Then he played a Jitte, killed the Hyppie and we were at a standstill for a while. Eventually I played goyf, the Hierarch traded with the shade and he played a coatl. The Jitte had no counters on it, he was at 1 life and couldn't fetch, and my goyf had 5 power so if he swung for jitte counters he'd still die by one point of damage. We stared at each other for a while until I frantically topdecked a stalker, saw it sworded, and then mised a second off the top to win. At that point there was one minute left in the round so there was no game 2.

Round 4, vs. Ben??? (Goblins)
I drew, though based on previous experience with the deck I feel confident against Goblins.

Top 4: I play Stefan again from round 1. In games 1 and 3 I just put too much early pressure on for him to recover. I think I punted game 2 by playing right into a Sower I knew he had, but I was in a bad board state to begin with.

Finals: Against Brian from round 3 again, and these two games are much faster. Game 1 I mull to 5 and keep Delta, goyf, Seize, Hymn, Stalker on the play while he mulls to 6. A turn 1 seize reveals Breeding Pool, Coatl, Selkie, Pridemage, and 2 Brainstorms, so I take the Coatl. His turn one is to Waste my Bayou, but luckily I topdeck a mire then a swamp. I play out my creatures and get him to one, but he paths my stalker and plays a Selkie with Jitte along with another critter or two. I can't get through and lose. Game 2 he just overwhelms me with exalted dudes and I don't draw enough creatures.

Overall I was pretty happy with my deck's performance. Reanimates were great all night, and the Jittes in the board were very helpful when I needed them. The pulses were a last minute addition that I never actually cast. At least one game I could have won if they were the Seal of Primordiums they replaced because I was stuck on two land, but I'll need to test them out some more. I'm not sure about the pithing needles in the board, though the rest of it I'm happy with.

My main issue is that I feel the Shades are weak compared to the other creatures. I know they can be massive threats but I would much rather play mana on spells. I don't love the Leech swap because I hate to expose Bayous when I don't have to and This deck loses a lot of its own life already. Any suggestions?

[Clark Kant]

My main issue is that I feel the Shades are weak compared to the other creatures. I know they can be massive threats but I would much rather play mana on spells. I don't love the Leech swap because I hate to expose Bayous when I don't have to and This deck loses a lot of its own life already. Any suggestions?

Great report, and other than the Shades, I love your list.

I definately share your sentiments on the shades. The only time they're even decent is in the late game which is bad for a deck as aggressive as this one, otherwise, they're straight up inferior to your other threats. And even mid to late game, if you have any spells to cast, you're better off casting them than pumping Shade.

I recommend testing the Leech before ruling it out completely. As I said, its better than the alternatives even against aggro (the only match where your life total matters), since you can save it as a blocker to deter all attacks from 3/4s and below. Negator, Gouger and Shade can't do that unless you stop using mana to play spells every turn they have a creature

[Esper3k]

Just curious, what were the last 4 cards you ran in the main deck? I'm only seeing 35 spells? (you have -1 Shade, -3 Seal, -4 Snuff Out, +2 Reanimate, +2 Maelstrom Pulse different from the maindeck?)

[Centurion]

Sorry, I played 4 Snuff Out and just forgot to write it down.

I might try out the Leeches, though there have been a few games where I get perilously low on life between the Snuff Outs, Seizes, and Fetchs.

[DragoFireheart]

Maelstrom Pulse can backfire if you want to kill a Goyf of theirs and you have one yourself.

[AnwarA101]

Maelstrom Pulse can backfire if you want to kill a Goyf of theirs and you have one yourself.

That is true, but the better question is why would you cast Maelstrom Pulse in this situation?

[DragoFireheart]

That is true, but the better question is why would you cast Maelstrom Pulse in this situation?

You wouldn't, but if it were Vindicate this wouldn't be the case.

[AnwarA101]

You wouldn't, but if it were Vindicate this wouldn't be the case.

I don't think I get your point. Are you trying to say that Maelstrom Pulse is bad because it doesn't work in the one case you cited? I could name other situations where Maelstrom Pulse would be better than Vindicate, but I don't know if that would be a useful exercise. Its better to understand the difference with cards and try to see which makes more sense in the context of the overall deck.