hey guys is there an inexpensive substitute for sinkholes until I can afford to get the real ones? I'e seen blight and rain of tears on deckcheck but don't know if either are really legacy playable. Otherwise any other suitable cards for that slot that you can think of might work too. Any suggestions would be really appreciated.
I've never played it with Sinkholes, and I've always done all right without them. Then again, having not used them, I don't know if they take the deck from "all right" to "awesome" or not. Depending on how you think the meta will be, Aleksandr's suggestion of Unmask is something I've done before and liked, or you could play additional removal (Smother especially). I've even used Pox, and though I still haven't quite gotten the hang of it, it's entertaining and sometimes catches people off guard.
Just out of curiosity, what do you guys think about 1-2 Berserk slots as a finisher? It gives a +4/+5 pump plus trample for Tarmogoyf, +5 for Stalker and has a lot of potential if you are running Shade...
Looking for a little help with my current build.
Creatures (16)
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Hypnotic Specter
Instants (10)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Snuff Out
2 Smother
Sorceries (13)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
Artifacts (2)
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands (19)
3 Bayou
7 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Krosan Grip
3 Summoning Trap
I was having a little trouble deciding if I should be running 2 Duress in addition to the 4 Thoughtseize or 2 Smother in addition to the 4 Snuff Out. I decided on the extra removal, but am still torn.
I'm not sure if I should be running more creatures. I think the creatures I have right now are all at the right number, but maybe I should add some more of something else. Putrid Leech, perhaps?
If you don't have Sinkhole, don't play LD. Play more removal (Gatekeeper of Malakir, Smother), more threats (Putrid Leech, Vampire Nighthawk), or even some random combo (Dark Depths + Vampire Hexmage + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth) instead.
P.S: I'm not a fan of Nantuko Shade. It's too slow and no where near as good as it once was. I would play both Gatekeeper of Malakir and Vampire Nighthawk in the deck well before I would play Nantuko Shade. The former two are a lot better in the format since there are a lot more creatures running around in legacy these days.
In short...
Tarmogoyf > Tombstalker >>> Vampire Nighthawk = Hypnotic Specter = Gatekeeper of Malakir >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nantuko Shade = Putrid Leech = Dark Confidant
Just split 1st in a 50 man 2-of-each-Dual tournament at Knight-ware. I went 4-1-ID in the swiss.
I played this list:
Creatures: 16
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Nantuko Shade
2x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Vampire Nighthawk
3x Tombstalker
Other Spells: 23
4x Thoughtseize
4x Dark Ritual
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Snuff Out
Lands: 21
4x Bayou
4x Wasteland
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Swamp
1x Forest
Sideboard:
4x Leyline of the Void
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Choke
2x Krosan Grip
2x Perish
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Round 1: I beat Rb goblins 2-0. I got very lucky. He tends to draw a lot of mana sources when he plays me.
Round 2: I beat BGW Survival Rock 2-1. Game 1 he gets Loyal Retainer into Iona. Game 2 he keeps a 1 Forest/2 Birds hand with Survival and Goyf and other stuff but I have 3 Maelstrom Pulses. Game 3 all I can remember was that Perish wiped a needed Birds and an Eternal Witness while my Nighthawk flew over before that.
Round 3: Lost to Dredge 0-2 due to play mistakes. Second game I didn't keep a Ritual for a later bounced Leyline and didn't draw lands to replay it. Also, I had Nighthawk on the field with him at 4 life. I thought Iona has first strike along with the flying so I didn't attack into her to win or kill Iona. RTFC
Round 4: Beat Dreadstill 2-1. Don't remember much except making a really bad play mistake. He had relatively little business and I was beating down early with a Shade and pumped it during an attack when he animated a Mishra's Factory, blocked and boosted itself while I had a Snuff in hand. I got distracted with the match to my left and the second I said "okay" to the damage step I realized my idiocy. Went on to win the game, which I think was game 1.
Round 5: Beat ProElves 2-1. Keep a 2 Wasteland/creature-heavy hand game 1 and lose to Prog. Games 2/3: Perish is awesome.
Round 6: Standings go up showing me in 3rd, I get paired against 1st and we ID.
Top 8:
(not in order)
White Stax
Enchantress
Eva Green (myself)
Aggro Loam
UBr Blossom/Sprite/Stalker w/ Blightning
Rb Goblins
2 I don't know
Quarters: The same Rb goblins gets in. I roll 3 dice getting 6/6/6 but he trounces me as he should in game 1. Seeing as the devil's on my side, the next 2 games I get lucky as I did in round 1. Though he sided out his sideboard Smothers against me for more bodies which seems bad in my opinion. The last tournament I played him as Mono-R and got lucky there too.
Semis: Aggro-loam. Beat him 2-0. First game we go back and forth and the field builds up with a 6/6 Terravore and Dark Con while I have 2 5/6 Goys maybe a Nighthawk and a Tombstalker while he's at 7 and gets another Conf off the top to take him to 5 for my Stalker. Something fun to note, game 2 he got Countryside Crusher turn 3 and then proceeded to go through 10 lands the next turn. Vampire Nighthawk saves my ass by stalling until I get a Pulse to destroy 2 Crushers. (He didn't see Pulse in the first game)
Finals: Split with Dragon Stompy. Played it out at Subway afterward for whoever gets the NM Underground Sea(Other was Exc). We both ended up with an Underground Sea and a Tropical Island. Game 1 I get time to fetch for basics and have enough removal. Game 2 I get 2 swamps and a forest in hand and get the game under control but he topdecks a Rakdos Pit Dragon and I can't draw removal while I chump with Nighthawk and Stalker and a second Stalker sits in my hand. Game 3 I don't remember, but I won this one for the better Usea.
Comments about my choices:
Vampire Nighthawk: better than sliced bread. Much better than Hypnotic Specter, especially in this meta.
Gatekeeper of Malakir: Not as good as sliced bread, but still more testing is to be done.
Nantuko Shade: It's not what's ideal but it's the best big beater next to Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker, a necessary evil imo.
Umezawa's Jitte: Never saw it except in a game against Dragon Stompy topdecking it to kill his Jitte.
Maelstrom Pulse: I won't leave home without it. Has saved me ****TONS of times.
Tombstalker at 3: Works much better for me at 3 than 4. Clogs my hand otherwise.
Forest: Better than previously tested. Helped me against Loam and Dragon Stompy. There were a lot of Stax and Wasteland+recursion lists in the tournament so I swapped Mires and a swamp for Catacombs and a forest right before the tournament. Didn't clash with my cards as much as it did in testing but there was 1 hand I mulled because Wasteland+forest, especially with no goyfs in hand, doesn't get there.
SB:
Deed, Perish, and Choke continue to be all-stars.
Krosan Grips I rarely sideboarded in and rarely drew them. Thinking of replacing with Duresses, Engineered Plagues, or Jitte and Perish.
Leyline of the Void: An experienced Dredge player friend says this is best. If it weren't for my mistakes I probably would have won the game. Sticking with it for now.
Hi everyone,
haven´t posted for a while. Thought to bring the discussion up again.
Eva Green is still a very aggressive deck with a devastating way of dealing with opponents hands. This makes this deck good against Combo, sets Control on a descent clock (questions) and taking their answers on the way. Even Aggro seems doable since we have often the bigger critters and force them into top deck mode very quick. In general this deck is still a very good choice for an unknown Meta and bigger events.
So my question is: “Why isn´t Eva Green played anymore as commonly as it should?”
I tried to answer that question to myself. What has changed in the last couple of month (year)? Well obviously new CARDSETS where printed…..so what did that change?
We got:
a) More Fetchies, making manabases more consistent. And opening them for more basics. Hence mana-screwing the opponent became harder.
b) A large number of cheap and reasonable sized critters along with the tribal support cards gave aggro a huge boost. Goblins gained popularity again (Warren Weirding, Instigator, Chieftain), and decks like merfolk and zoo (Wolly T.,…) became decks to beat. So Aggro became more dominant and its average manacost still dropped (Think of it: Critters with cc >= 4 are almost a no-go).
c) A couple of combo-/comboish decks where born (PainterServant/ANT/Dream-Hall-Combo/NO-Progenitus). And decks like Ichorid where boosted by gaining cards like Iona, Sphinx, Bloodghast,…).
d) There are other things that not get mentioned here.
So what does this mean for Eva Green? There are fewer lands needed since aggro got cheaper, there are less non-basic lands being played due to more fetchies in the right color and fewer lands being played in combo. This means that wasteland lost a little power and sinkhole became less and less relevant. I noticed that I constantly board out all 4 copies of Sinkhole, because it is not needed vs combo and too slow vs aggro.
Also Eva green still needs its entire hand destruction package in order to battle combo. At the same time more creatures need to be handled because of the rise of aggro in general. Since the entire game accelerates we have to watch out for speedbumps more then ever.
So what are the new cards/choices Eva Green can think about?
Dark Depth + Hexmage No, needs too much support different deck
Bloodghast No, no way of gaining much out of them early on, therefore not fast enough. Too much grave dependency alongside Goyf and Stalker for this deck.
Nighthawk Evasion, Deathtouch, Lifelink, Survives any Critter with toughness 2 or less, Lives thru Fire/Ice, Shock, Magma Jet, SGC, Grim Lavamancer, Volcanic Fallout, Infest, Pyroclasm,…….. Very versatile but a little expensive.
Gatekeeper Yes, this is what we looked for …. Kills Critter, makes our own connect and is a threat itself.
Sensei + Confidant Some people try it, but I feel that you have to lower the curve too much and it takes up to much deckspace ( 4 Confidants + 3 Sensei + for carddraw, lifeloss and less Tombstalker! I mean think of a not too unlikely scenario like: You are on the draw and opponent plays a creature that needs to be handled. Your turn you go Fetch Swamp , Ritual, Thoughtseize, Confidant, Snuff Out : Life Total = 13! Next Turn you either draw cc3 leaving you at 10 with a card you can´t play or Snuff Out leaving you at 9 with a card that would drop you to 5 or Tombstalker that drops you to 5 as well.) The game becomes a dice-roll a few times too often for my taste. If people play this way and take SUICIDE-Deck literally that is O.K. , but not my playstyle.
So this is the new decklist I want to play:
Lands (20)
1 Forest
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
6 Swamps
4 Wastelands
Creatures(20)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hypnotic Specters
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Tombstalker
2 Nantunko Shade
Others (20)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn To Tourach
3 Snuff Out
3 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Reanimate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
SB(15)
4 Ravenous Trap
3 Jitte
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Open Slots Something like (Grip, (((Extirpate))), Choke, Infest, Perish, Gaea´s Cradle, Engineered Plague, Relict,…)
Numbers:
Average Manacost =1.3833 (Counting Tomstalker as 4, Gatekeeper as 2.5 and only counting 1 Snuff Out) otherwise it would be 1.7500
Handdestruction: 3 TS, 2 Duress, 4 Hymn, 4 Hypnotics = 13 (More would be overkill since they become a dead draw if opponent is in top deck mode.)
Creature Removal: 4 Gatekeeper, 3 Snuff Out, 2 Pulse, (3 Nighthawk) = 9 (12)
Permanent Removal: 2 Pulse + Handdestruction
3 Tombstalker: I don´t want to have him in the opening 7, but want to see him regularly. Less Gravedependancy and less risk of running into two (often unplayable)
2 Shade´s: Fits the curve. Can be a house, but never as a double. 2 are fine for me.
3 Snuff Out: A lot more removal has been added. Safes some life I would like to use on Reanimate
3 Thoughtseize: Often I fear the noncreature spells more, especially now that a run a ton of removal. Safes some life I would like to use on Reanimate.
2 Reanimate: Finds always a goodie in someone´s grave. Goes well with Handdestruction and Creatureremoval. Often is a huge speedboost. I already found an IONA in an Ichoridbuild on the draw, when he dredged on his first turn, but didn´t go off. Also a good card against Reanimator decks and….
0 Sinkholes: I got 4 beta one´s and it really hurts me not using them, but at the moment I feel that it is a necessary evil to go that way.
I hope you guys are willing to share some constructive thoughts on my new build.
Hi, long time lurker first post.
I have been using Eva Green for about 2 years now & have found much of the same problems, but I think having so many 3cc with Gatekeeper needing to be kicked could be problematic with only 20 land. I love the addition of Gatekeeper & have found him to be a bomb.
Hi everyone,
trying to drop 1 Creature in my above mentioned list to find some more room for an extra land.
I am also very excited about the new Land from Worldwake:
Bojuka Bog (Land):
Bojuka Bog enters the battlefield tapped.
When Bojuka Bog enters the battlefield, exile all cards from target player's graveyard.
{T}: Add {B} to your mana pool.
Seems like a very promissing SB card that is an uncounterable Graveremoval that doubles as a manasource. I think that is the wright way of looking at the card. It produces black, isn´t a speedbump like crypts or even relicts, is uncounterable --> sexy; but no instant speed removal. So it needs to be played alongside some other anti-grave-cards like R.Trap or Leyline or whatever. But the other solution can be played fewer in numbers and the land gives you more mana in g2/g3 or is boardable against Lands which lets you keep all the other MB-cards.
I really wish Bajuka Bog was a SWAMP!!!! :P
I think Leyline is much better gravehate than Bojuka Bog, and if you're going to run Leyline, you need four. However, if you want more than four cards to hate against dredge and loam, I think Bojuka Bog is the best card to include after Leyline.
Anyway, here's my current list
Creatures (18)
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
3 Nantuko Shade
1 Putrid Leech
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Hypnotic Specter
Instants (8)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Snuff Out
Sorceries (13)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
Lands (21)
3 Bayou
6 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
3 Summoning Trap
2 Umezawa's Jitte
The last time I played this deck was with Chalice of the Void in sideboard to help against both aggressive and combo decks, but lately I've become more and more convinced the deck really wants Chalice of the Void in the main deck. The deck has 8 spells at one mana and Thoughtseize has been underwhelming both against aggro and combo. This can make the deck a bit slower outside of the ritual draw, but it also means that its cards have more impact. Chalice of the Void can win games in this format, but Thoughtseize rarely does.
I've also been convinced to try Sylvan Library as a way to find the best cards and in certain cases generate card advantage (thought the use of Snuff Out makes this a bit more precarious).
Here's the list I've been tinkering with, but it has very little testing behind it. I think its an interesting approach about where the deck might want to go.
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Tombstalker
4 Snuff Out
2 Sylvan Library
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Dark Ritual
4 Bayou
4 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
I feel like a dumbass having never thought to use Library instead of Bob/Top. :( That's a great idea, please update if/when you test it.
Given the mana-hungry nature of the deck to begin with, and also the fact that you're running only eight lands that produce black mana, are you not worried about making Shade relevant? I only ever run six fetchlands (being scared shitless of Stifle as I am) and ten to twelve black sources, and I still haven't had particularly good luck with Shade.
Is the fact that you have a grand total of 4 one drops left in the deck not an issue? (It might well not be. I'm just asking.)
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
Well Dark Ritual is best in your opening hand so if you do draw a Dark Ritual after resolving a Chalice of the Void that does make the card dead, but Dark Ritual is often dead if you draw it. Sure it can giant growth your Shades or power out a Tombstalker, but in general it is the worst card you can top deck. I think its an acceptable trade off and Dark Ritual lets you play Chalice on turn 1 so it has its benefits as well.
@coraz86: I'm not sure how many more lands you would want. I want fetchlands to fuel Tombstalker, shuffle for Sylvan Library, find the appropriate basic or dual given the circumstance, and in the long run thin my deck. Sure you run into Stifle, but what the rest of the time where fetch lands are nothing short of gold?
Why run 4 Chalice of the Voids if your only goal is to play it at one? Chalice at two can really shut down your deck, so after you get one into play, you won't want to see it anymore, making it just as bad of a late game top deck as dark ritual. Would using two or three be better?
Total misunderstanding of what I was asking. I was asking whether there might be too few one drops, not too many. As is, if you don't draw a Ritual, you spend turn one doing nothing. Is this fine? That most attempts at fixing it would run into more dissynergy with Chalice is of course another factor. (You could accelerate straight into two drops with Moxen, but that, as all things, has its drawbacks; there's such a thing as too much card disadvantage acceleration.)
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
Yeah, that leads the deck to have slow openings, which I thought I addressed. That is the problem with playing Chalice of the Void in this type of deck. You could run something like Mox Diamond, but isn't that just worse than Dark Ritual and having more than 4 accelerants means that you'll just completely run out of gas that much faster.
@jamis: You want to play 4 so that you have the best chance of playing it on turn 1 or at least turn 2 where it will have the most impact.
Last edited by AnwarA101; 02-02-2010 at 12:38 AM.
As a CotV proof accelerator you can use the slightly off color Elvish Spirit Guide which gets you to 2 mana on the first turn, enables anti-daze shenanigans, and in the very late game is a body.
My List and some thoughts:
Lands (20)
1 Forest
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
7 Swamps
4 Wastelands
Creatures(19)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hypnotic Specters
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Tombstalker
1 Nantunko Shade
Others (20)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn To Tourach
3 Snuff Out
3 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Reanimate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
SB(15)
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ravenous Trap
3 Crop Rotation
3 Vampire Hexmage
2 Bajuka Bog
1 Dark Depth
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas / Tabernacle / Maze
Hi guys,
I just came up with an interesting SB just a few minutes ago. I don´t know if it is good for anything, but I think it is at least worth a try.
So what is the idea?
- Krosan Grip is good against cards that we have problems against (Chalice @ 2; Counterbalance; Vial; Jitte; Humility; Painter/Combo;…) and adds to MB Pulse; making 2 a good number for the SB.
- Ravenous Trap against grave-strategies. Is being supported by 2 sorcery speed Bajuka Bog giving me 4 cards against graves. I play a 2/2 Split because I want to support Crop Rotation in my deck. Crop Rotation gives me the possibility to play Bog at instant speed and lets me find Bog only if needed. So I play 7 anti-grave-cards.
- Crop Rotation lets me abuse some other land-cards and lets me pull of some nice anti aggro and combo tricks.
1. My untapped Bayou´s become Wastelandproof by sacking them in response and fetching something more suitable.
2. I get a little more resistible against Moon effects
3. Every unneeded land can be transformed into a wasteland!
4. It opens me for the possibility to power out a Tombstalker much faster. (Opening 7: Fetch/Crop/Ritual/Stalker/+3 Others: Play Fetch-Fetch for Bayou-Play Crop Rotation and get Fetch For Swamp – Ritual – Stalker) Or play the Stalker turn 2 if you have 2 Fetchlands and no Ritual in opening 7!
5. Gives me the chance of squeezing in a 4 card Dark Depth Combo which can kill as early as turn 2 or turn 3 using Crop Rotation. Could be Sb`ed against Combo/Burn/aggro: by replacing stuff like 4 Malakir/ 3 Snuff Our against non-creature Combo; 3 Snuff Out/ 3 Thoughtseize +2 others against Burn / 2 Duress / 4 Specter +2 Others against aggro
6. Lets me play instant speed grave removal aka Bog
7. Could give me Tabernacle if played in SB if the meta demands it
8. Gives me an out against Dark Depth Avatar and Iona via Karakas (Iona would never name GREEN!)
9. Gives me an damage out (via Chasm) against fatal blows of Progenitus, Burn, Charbelcher,…. and me the chance to stabilize and Cumulative: 2 Life or hit back next turn for lethal .
10. Live loss from fetchlands in the lategame can be avoided (small effect).
11. This all makes the Crop Rotation a cheap universal joker card. I could support cards like Dryad Arbor, Cabal Pit, Maze of Ith, Tabernacle, (Bloodghast),…
So what are the Cons?
- It kills me if it gets countered. So it isn´t very good against blue-based decks but is still playable if backed up with discard.
- Changing a land to a different solution costs a card which slows you down.
- I lost SB-space for cards like Jitte/Choke/Infest… (one of them could still be squeezed in).
Why no Living Wish MB?
This is a fast aggro-control deck that can´t afford to get stuff out of the SB and losing 2 turns of pressure. This deck wins by playing threats and taking answers forcing the opponent to look for solutions. So Living Wish is not suitable for our overall game-plan.
So what do you guys think?
Greetings
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