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Thread: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

  1. #4661

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    Also, interesting that youre both arguing that daze is a bad card in a clearly tempo deck, and also stating that daze will be banned due to how strong it is in delver, on the same page.
    Is it?

  2. #4662
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    Um, did you watch the same video that I did. Nothing about the opposing lists was bad. Shadow is a perfectly solid legacy deck. What cards were opponents playing that seemed suboptimal? Both Ragavan and Ignoble Hierarch are powerful cards, and the other cards were all legacy staples.

    Also, interesting that youre both arguing that daze is a bad card in a clearly tempo deck, and also stating that daze will be banned due to how strong it is in delver, on the same page.
    So the first opponent barely passed the 'not a modern deck registered into a legacy league' test. The 8 cards they showed were: 4x Fetch, 2x UR shock, 1x Ragavan, and at the very end a Wasteland. I'm not giving them credit for playing Shadow with an opener of double-Fetch 2x UR shock. I'm also not going to give them credit for being on Shadow when they cast Uro [instead of leaving it in exile like every Shadow deck would] knowing it would gain them 3 life on turn 2. That wasn't Shadow, that was Scoop and Throw.

    On Jund, the entire deck is suboptimal. On the basically Blade deck, only marginally less suboptimal than Jund. These are both midrange decks, and they don't have an actual strategy beyond jam jam jam, look at all my 1-card combos. If you want to jam 1-card combos relentlessly, the card you should be playing is Uro, and the optimal deck is one of the Uro Bant piles. It really doesn't matter if they "feel" like their deck isn't just crappy Uro pile, because that's just what it is. The UG Dreadnought deck has a lot of the same problems of taking the Uro pile and adding StifleNoughts at the cost of battlefield interaction; but, it has Uro and the other two crappy Uro piles didn't have Uro. If there is one card you want against a poorly built, slow Delver deck, it's Uro.

    On 4c Delver, look at the mana base. There is a zero percent chance they are allowed to do anything other than massacre their own hand trying to stop Stifle target Fetch, and then play expensive multicolor cards that are only ever going to get Dazed. Their deck is built to lose to Stifle-Wasteland-Daze regardless of the other 48 cards in deck, and surprise surprise they lost to that simple flaw.

    So you've got a case of tier 2 deck beats tier 2.5 deck three times in a row. On Daze, we never play this card because it's "good" or b/c we want to. It's only there because Delver exists, and they play Daze too, plus or minus Delver playing spells that are way too expensive (eg Oko). Rewatch the league and show me where exactly StifleNought was tempo'ing opponents, and not giving them enough time to make all their land drops forever.

  3. #4663

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    On mtgo, duals are only a few dollars more than the shocklands whereas Ragavan is an $80 card. A Ragavan deck is not packing shocks for budget reasons, its doing so because its a Shadow deck. How are you so certain that its a modern deck that was registered into a legacy league when the more obvious explanation based on the cards shown is that is a legacy death’s shadow deck that happens to be playing Ragavans.

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    Is it?
    4 Stifle, 4 Wasteland, free counters, a 1cc 12/12 trampler that clocks in 2 attacks but is vulnerable to every kill spell in the game... yes

  4. #4664
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    4 Stifle, 4 Wasteland, free counters, a 1cc 12/12 trampler that clocks in 2 attacks but is vulnerable to every kill spell in the game... yes
    No. This StifleNought deck has zero cards it can play early which can generate pressure and force opponents to play into Daze. It also lacks spells that target life totals. The opponent has all the time in the world to sit back and hit land drops, such that Daze will never work.

  5. #4665

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Credit where credit is due the sense:nonsense ratio of the last 2 fox posts is way above average

  6. #4666

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    This StifleNought deck has zero cards it can play early which can generate pressure and force opponents to play into Daze. It also lacks spells that target life totals. The opponent has all the time in the world to sit back and hit land drops, such that Daze will never work.
    Just to verify, youre talking about this video right?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETm2CazPDq8

    Because thats not at all what I saw the deck do on the video. I instead saw multiple opponents scoop to an early 12/12 or 6/6 or multiple 12/12s because their life total was under too much pressure too quickly. Yes, I also saw the deck occasionally side dazes and Dreadnoughts out to switch into a midrange bant control strategy postboard but that was usually just for game two after winning game 1, and on the occasions the deck didnt win game 2 with that switch, the deck was switched back to the daze and jamming 6/6s and 12/12 plan game 3 to win the match.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    That's the video. Now where exactly in that entire league was Daze consistently having any text? You've identified the problem; just like Worldgorger Dragon, the SB plan all too often is to become a crappy version of value pile. Now crappy value pile is favored against even crappier value pile; but it's a different story when you're up against optimal value pile - it becomes a really miserable way to play magic, since everything they do is better...and you get to lose to Surgical.

    You're naming plays with sorcery speed, summoning sick 2-3cmc plays. Daze isn't going to counter anything when they get to untap, play another land drop, and then play a 1cmc kill spell - so why is Daze in the deck?

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Does Dress Down and Suspend make mono-blue viable? I know I'm a broken record on this, so I apologize for that, but I would love to have a non-dual manabase deck for legacy. I think I'm going to get playsets of both and see what it can do to make it happen. I like that Suspend is a way to clear t1 plays to setup t2 Standstill and force it them to break it. That allows me to use Forces aggressively and get way ahead on cards.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    That's the video. Now where exactly in that entire league was Daze consistently having any text?
    Come on buddy, you know that just the threat of Daze changes play patterns. That's level 1 legacy.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Come on buddy, you know that just the threat of Daze changes play patterns. That's level 1 legacy.
    It really doesn't if the opponent doesn't ever have to play into it.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    It really doesn't if the opponent doesn't ever have to play into it.
    What if...stay with me now...they never have to play into it because they are always playing around it. That doesn't make Daze a bad card necessarily, but it does change the dynamic of the different matchups. Not every card is good in all situations, but that doesn't mean you don't play it in your deck. Lightning Bolt is terrible against Eldrazi, but that doesn't mean you don't maindeck it in UR Delver against the majority of the format. Daze may be terrible against decks with the mana to always play around/ignore it, but the matchups where it is good are more than the matchups where it's bad. That's Legacy level 2. Your welcome. Follow me for more recipes.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    What if...stay with me now...they never have to play into it because they are always playing around it. That doesn't make Daze a bad card necessarily, but it does change the dynamic of the different matchups. Not every card is good in all situations, but that doesn't mean you don't play it in your deck. Lightning Bolt is terrible against Eldrazi, but that doesn't mean you don't maindeck it in UR Delver against the majority of the format. Daze may be terrible against decks with the mana to always play around/ignore it, but the matchups where it is good are more than the matchups where it's bad. That's Legacy level 2. Your welcome. Follow me for more recipes.
    I think the relevant point here is that if playing around Daze doesn't meaningfully reduce their chance of winning (e.g. because they are facing pressure and will lose or fall far behind by passing the turn), then Daze is much less good. Daze is much stronger in a deck with Ragavans or Delvers forcing immediate interactions. I do agree with that. If you are curving out into Uro + Stifle (4 mana) then opponent doesn't really lose much by playing around Daze. And if you do use the Daze, it slows you down a turn from Uro+Stifle, so you lost some of the tempo it gained. I don't know about "bad card", but that deck can't abuse Daze the way most tempo decks can. UR Delver with 4x Monkey is a deck that can abuse Daze and leads to "ban Daze" after 1 weekend.

    Lightning Bolt is good against Eldrazi (Ancient Tomb), but if it could only hit creatures it would be worse. Bolt is maindeckable because at least one of its many modes is usually relevant.

    Edit: Bosh raises the same point in the video. The high end of the deck (Uro and Jace) clash with the Daze strategy, and he boards out Daze sometimes.

  13. #4673

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    ... and he boards out Daze sometimes.
    Bosh occasionally siding out Daze does not mean that its a bad card. He also correctly sided out Force of Wills and even Ponder on occasion. That doesnt mean those are bad cards. It just means that stronger cards against that specific matchup exist in the board.

    In the linked video, opponents had to slow their play to play around daze and lost those games. But they probably also would have lost if they jammed quickly into a daze, so daze was definitely doing its job there.

    The deck 4-1ed and the only match it lost was because BoshNRoll did not Daze the Dark Ritual like they should have once the opponent was already fully committed to a summoners pact.

    Daze helped the deck 4-1 and if it was used properly the deck would have 5-0ed. So why exactly is Daze bad in the deck again?

    I see that your lists dont play Daze, and that they are built very differently, and I have not watched any videos of 4-1 or 5-0 leagues with those lists so I cant comment on them. I just dont buy your assertion that Daze is a bad card in other Dreadnought lists when my own experience playing both with and against the card, and the footage in the video both show it to be a good card, that your opponent is forced to slow down and play around or risk getting blown out by.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    What if...stay with me now...they never have to play into it because they are always playing around it. That doesn't make Daze a bad card necessarily, but it does change the dynamic of the different matchups. Not every card is good in all situations, but that doesn't mean you don't play it in your deck. Lightning Bolt is terrible against Eldrazi, but that doesn't mean you don't maindeck it in UR Delver against the majority of the format. Daze may be terrible against decks with the mana to always play around/ignore it, but the matchups where it is good are more than the matchups where it's bad. That's Legacy level 2. Your welcome. Follow me for more recipes.

    Very well said.

  14. #4674

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Daze may be terrible against decks with the mana to always play around/ignore it, but the matchups where it is good are more than the matchups where it's bad.
    This is almost a fundamental misunderstanding of how Daze works. The effectiveness of daze is far more affected by the kind of deck it's played in rather than the kind of deck it's used against. Any deck can have "the mana to play around / ignore it" as long as you give them enough turns to draw a few extra cards and make the land drop to have the mana to pay for it. Therefore for daze to be (most) effective it needs to be played in decks that:
    A) Force the opponent to react to early plays immediately without giving the opponent time to draw extra cards and make extra land drops
    B) Aren't significantly hampered by the cost of picking up one of their own islands

    When one of the main proactive threat plays is eot dress down into turn 3 untap and play Dreadnought, the deck is giving the opponent a lot of time to have that extra mana to respond, so it is (apparently) failing at A

    Then the other plan of the deck is Uro/Jace, which costs 4 mana, so it is apparently also failing at B

    What if...stay with me now...they never have to play into it because they are always playing around it. That doesn't make Daze a bad card necessarily, but it does change the dynamic of the different matchups. Not every card is good in all situations, but that doesn't mean you don't play it in your deck. Lightning Bolt is terrible against Eldrazi, but that doesn't mean you don't maindeck it in UR Delver against the majority of the format. Daze may be terrible against decks with the mana to always play around/ignore it, but the matchups where it is good are more than the matchups where it's bad. That's Legacy level 2. Your welcome. Follow me for more recipes.
    As a kind of sanity check, note that this rationale is totally agnostic to the deck daze is being used in, so you could uncritically apply it to any deck to apparently justify playing Daze in that deck (Miracles, Grixis, Combo, Stoneblade, etc).

  15. #4675
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Those are fair points, which are all valid when really digging deep into how legacy as a format works. I was more interested in arguing against a simplistic view of Daze than trying to capture its whole influence, which is what you did better in your above post. I don't disagree about the style of deck being very important when considering Daze.

    EDIT: and I felt like being a bit of sarcastic prick.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    In the linked video, opponents had to slow their play to play around daze and lost those games. But they probably also would have lost if they jammed quickly into a daze, so daze was definitely doing its job there.

    The deck 4-1ed and the only match it lost was because BoshNRoll did not Daze the Dark Ritual like they should have once the opponent was already fully committed to a summoners pact.

    Daze helped the deck 4-1 and if it was used properly the deck would have 5-0ed. So why exactly is Daze bad in the deck again?
    Are we watching the same video? Bosh couldn't have 5-0ed.

    vs Oops he already won the game where he didn't Daze Dark Ritual (Daze was irrelevant), but lost both G2 and G3 with useless Daze stuck in hand.

    Dazing the Ritual doesn't win this round. I'd go further to say Bosh didn't misplay by skipping the Daze. He noticed he could Daze the Ritual but opted not to. He already had both Dress Down & Stifle to beat them. Why not Daze also? Unlike most Daze decks, this deck has a real cost to picking up an Island, so there was no need to burn a Daze unless necessary (e.g. keep Daze back to protect Dress Down & Stifle). He won without Daze.

    Edit: What kombatkiwi said. Sure some opponents will walk into Daze no matter what other 56 cards you play, but it's optimized in decks with cheaper proactive threats and where you don't have 4 drops that clash with picking up lands.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    I just dont buy your assertion that Daze is a bad card in other Dreadnought lists when my own experience playing both with and against the card, and the footage in the video both show it to be a good card, that your opponent is forced to slow down and play around or risk getting blown out by.
    We are talking about Daze in the context of this StifleNought list. The problem with Daze here is that the deck can't threaten anything meaningful on the turn that it is doing the thing - it makes threats at sorcery speed, with summoning sickness. So unless the opponent is completely inept, it's basically impossible to get blown out by Daze b/c 100% of the time they will get an untap step, a draw, and a land drop.

    So we need to look at the pressure this deck can generate on turn 1-2 which creates demands on the opponent's resources. The thing is nobody is going to waste resources so that they don't die to Hierarch or Coatl. The opponent doesn't even need to Fetch into a Stifle, unless StifleNought has made 3 land drops, passed the turn and gone for EoT Dress Down. If the opponent realizes that the only thing they have to do is make land drops and engage in meaningless small plays StifleNought can't Daze, that they will be highly favored to win by default if they play interaction - all they have to do is beat 4x FoW, knowing they can never be ambushed and taken by surprise.

    This is a key understanding if you want to win with Dreadnought. The difference between Dress Down and Scroll of Fate is that if an opponent casts a sorcery speed card around Daze, their kill spell will not have Daze protection vs EoT face-down 12/12, untap take 12. If you don't have the immediate punish of basically haste, the Daze rots. So while Dress Down is certainly a cool card, you absolutely do not get to apply lessons learned from Scroll.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hammer View Post
    Just to verify, youre talking about this video right?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETm2CazPDq8

    Because thats not at all what I saw the deck do on the video. I instead saw multiple opponents scoop to an early 12/12 or 6/6 or multiple 12/12s because their life total was under too much pressure too quickly. Yes, I also saw the deck occasionally side dazes and Dreadnoughts out to switch into a midrange bant control strategy postboard but that was usually just for game two after winning game 1, and on the occasions the deck didnt win game 2 with that switch, the deck was switched back to the daze and jamming 6/6s and 12/12 plan game 3 to win the match.
    I watched the video again all the way through, and I have to agree with Fox here. Bosh's comments and play decisions throughout the vid support that.

    Round 1 - Typical "free win vs Round 1 jank" you'd get at LGS Legacy Night. Modern/budget player trying out Legacy. Note that fetching 2x Steam Vents 0x Blood Crypt 0x Watery Grave and then blowing a Treasure to gain 3 life (and give back opponent's Uro) does the opposite of what Shadow wants to accomplish, so this is much more likely to be jank/Modern than Grixis Shadow (or a bad Shadow player).

    Round 2 - Has useless Daze in all 3 games of 1-2 loss to Oops! Identical result if Daze was Evermind. Daze looks weak even though this is a 90-10 glass cannon combo match where it should shine, arguably just worse than the other combo hate. Bosh boards out Dreadnought tempo plan into Bant control. UG's inability to remove permanents shows up vs Xantid Swarm & "pass the turn" Informer that would lose to most other Ux decks.

    Round 3 - Bosh avoids Dreadnoughts & Daze, playing all 3 games as Jace.dec. Jace wins G1 despite rest of deck sucking, loses G2 to enemy Jace, then stabilizes to win G3. UG's inability to remove permanents shows up again. In G3 opponent misplays Kaya to lose the advantage (far ahead at turn 5-6) and let lucky Brainstorm into 1-of Jace & 1-of Saga steal the game using mana from unremoved Carpets. Needs more 1-card wincons and less Stiflenought.

    Round 4 - Ok Noughts did some work here, but if you look beyond the surface disruptive Dress Down was the real star. Daze + Wasteland mana denial was bad, while Uro and Sylvan did a lot to pull ahead in cards so opponent ran out of removal to let the Noughts win. Normally Stiflenought would be bad vs Decays & Push & Lili, so it was really the UGx card advantage that dug this out. Any wincon would have worked at that point.

    Round 5 - Uro, Sylvan and Endurance really won this. Mana denial plan was not used, with Stifle actually used defensively vs enemy mana denial. Dreadnought got cast but Bosh wasn't prioritizing it over the other cards that did better things, which I think was the correct way to use it (1-for-1 to draw out enemy removal then cast Uro). It could have been any creature really. In G2 he got raced with 2 12/12s on the board. That really shows the match was more about being ahead in resources than making 12/12s.

    Basically R1 jank, R2 loss to combo despite Daze, R3-R5 wins as Bant control by deprioritizing mana denial plan. Jace+Uro+Sylvan+Carpet carried the deck, with Dress Down mostly used as a utility cantrip to compensate for lack of other ways to interact with resolved creatures. Nought combo itself was mediocre, with any other unanswered threat probably leading to the same results without needing to play 2-card combos.


    In the video, Bosh points out the same fundamental deck construction problems Fox keeps talking about:
    1) UG can't answer permanents, can only make big threats first and race, but falls behind if opponent sticks a bigger problem first
    2) Stiflenought is awkward when deck goes hellbent and can't refuel on cards (no Standstill), so he has to pass on a couple Dreadnought opportunities due to lack of resources. Maybe he could have made Dreadnoughts more easily by holding back more cards to prepare for Dreadnoughts, but then there's an inability to interact with the opponent in a deck that can't deal with resolved threats, and what happens if opponent has a 1-card answer for the Stiflenought?
    3) Daze+Wasteland+Stifle has tension with high CMC threats. He often opts to develop his own mana vs disrupting the opponent's. In some situations he could have held up mana denial, but he had nothing proactive going on so opponent could have just waited.

    I think Bosh picked good lines by going proactive and interactive, winning in spite of the Dreadnought+mana denial plan instead of really playing to its strengths.

    This is pretty much what Fox has been saying the whole time. The deck can win by playing as a version of Bant "goodstuff", just on the back of those cards being so good (Uro, Jace, Endurance, Sylvan, Carpet, counters) but would it fill that role even better cutting the Dreadnought+mana denial plan for more Bant stuff? Often it hit brick draws of multiple Stifle/Daze/Dress Down in hand when you just wish those were cards with more business. Meanwhile it didn't show many situations where the deck could really capitalize on the mana denial plan. (R1G1 opponent scooped to "feels bad" moment of double Stifle on double fetch, but that was unnecessary. Bosh had nothing on board and only a 1/1 in hand, because the UGx control lacked ways to apply pressure after mana denial, so opponent could have stabilized with "pass the turn 6 times and play lands")
    Last edited by FTW; 06-17-2021 at 07:09 AM.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    What do you all think of Akr4n's winning URw "Dreadstill" list just splashing 1x Dreadnought 1x Standstill, and going heavy on Urza's Sagas and Ragavans?

    Although it seems unfocused, it looks like it can pivot between roles and wincons efficiently (even if one of those roles is being weak to manabase attacks). And it can reduce bad draws by running 4x Saga 1x Dreadnought instead of 4x Dreadnought, which gives it even higher DN density without needing to run conditional draws.

    OverpoweredMH2Cards.dec


    //Creatures: 8
    4 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
    1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    1 True-Name Nemesis
    2 Murktide Regent

    //Spells: 27
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Stifle
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Lightning Bolt
    4 Daze
    1 Force of Negation

    //Enchantment: 1
    1 Standstill

    //Artifacts: 2
    1 Retrofitter Foundry
    1 Soul-Guide Lantern

    //Lands: 22
    4 Urza's Saga
    3 Wasteland
    2 Arid Mesa
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Polluted Delta
    1 Misty Rainforest
    1 Scalding Tarn
    3 Tundra
    3 Volcanic Island
    1 Karakas

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Prismatic Ending
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Force of Negation
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Containment Priest
    1 Null Rod
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Vendilion Clique
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Grim Lavamancer


    Unlike some of the other builds, this looks like a very good Daze deck with 4x Ragavan and a very low curve.
    Last edited by FTW; 06-21-2021 at 08:29 AM.

  20. #4680
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Me and Morphling talked exclusively about this decklist and the conclusion was this was a very niche petdeck of ark4ns. Personally i think its a bit jumbled of a decklist and should focus on either the dreadstill aspect of the core more or the delver aspect. Trying to mush too many concepts at once here.

    Also im very underwhelemed with dress down in testing over scroll of fate. Scroll has been way more excellent.
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
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    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

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