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Thread: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

  1. #4701
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I think the optimal rule is probably n+2 plains-cards for Dragon. It is less clear where Vista can be dropped to a 3x. In testing UWr Standstill, 3x Dragon definitely allows dropping a Vista, but unsure if 2x Dragon can also support a dropped Vista.

    In terms of breaking the Dragon/Vista rules, I think you're probably looking at going for n+1 with 3 Dragon to 4 plains-cards and putting Vista down to 3x. Given Prismatic Ending is a better card than Disenchant/Path/Purge, consider 3rd color producer in SB. Unfortunately Triome enters tapped, making it a poor choice vs exile target Choke. Probably stick with a white/red or white/black dual, depending on what you want to accomplish.

  2. #4702

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    the SB plan all too often is to become a crappy version of value pile. Now crappy value pile is favored against even crappier value pile; but it's a different story when you're up against optimal value pile - it becomes a really miserable way to play magic, since everything they do is better...and you get to lose to Surgical.
    You obviously don't use that sideboard strategy in that type of matchup.

  3. #4703
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    You obviously don't use that sideboard strategy in that type of matchup.
    In discussing Uro/Stiflenought: against tier 2.5 (Mentor, Blade, etc) you absolutely SB to turn into crappy version of UroPile...because no matter how much worse you are than an actual UroPile, you have Uro and tier 2.5 doesn't.

    You never keep going all-in on Dreadnought just to reward Snapcaster/StP thugs.

  4. #4704

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Now that we have Urza's Saga, should we cut Phyrexian Dreadnought to 1-2 copies? Since Saga can fetch for Dreadnought.

    EDIT: Um I guess I'm a few days behind the discussion.

  5. #4705
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by jiazhouhuaqiao View Post
    Now that we have Urza's Saga, should we cut Phyrexian Dreadnought to 1-2 copies? Since Saga can fetch for Dreadnought.
    Unlikely. Among the best cards in the deck is still Scroll of Fate, so you still need to draw 12/12s. I also probably wouldn't go beyond 2x Saga in legacy builds. The strategic problems aside, there is a lack of slots for going above 2x Saga and also have a 2-3 card tutor package.

    There's not much to be gained by having low land counts in play (eg Rivalry-types)...and as far as I'm aware, Reclaimer and Crop Rot are about the only playable ways to cheese the sac trigger that come to mind.

  6. #4706
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Got to play paper again finally, went 3-1 on UR Dreadstill. Loss to GW Depths, wins vs DnT, BantUroBlade, and BW Dead Guy. Plenty of tech vs GW Depths but never drew it sadly.

    Tons of mulligans tonight despite outrageously good mana and land counts; three mull to 6 and a mull to 5, so pretty frustrating there. As always Daze is a trash card we have to play simply b/c Delver exists and plays it; so waiting on this ban to come through so we can play real cards in its place [2 FoN + 2 flex]. Daze is the better ban, but it's also not acceptable to ban DRS and leave Ragavan legal - there is a heavy cluster of first player advantage exploits with this group of cards.

    Dragon's Rage Channeler and Lavamancer were incredible all night. Saga and Shark'nado did what they are designed to do. Dress Down always felt like the right amount. I enjoyed a good amount of turn 2 delirium and sacrifice Saga -> sacrifice Nought for 1-card delirium.

    Noughts were made in 5 of 11 games (1 by Stifle, 3 by Scroll, 1 by Dress Down) which is quite high, and there were three instances of just getting one out of the deck with Saga [to sacrifice]. In total opponents were able to attempt to kill a Nought 7x, and succeeded once...which is a normal finding.

    Saga was responsible for two legitimate attempts to make Dreadnought (rather than purely searching to bin). Both coincided with Dress Down, one succeeded and the other Dress Down vindicated a FoW from hand, which was as good as Dreadnought would have been. This was done with Urza trigger on stack and I binned a Nought anyway to continue the DRC/Lavaman beatdown.

    Overall there was a significant spike in completely non-commital Dreadnought attempts, without increased ability of opponents to cope with it. This goes back to DRC, Lavamancer, and Scroll being completely intolerable and chewing through removal. DRC is particularly intolerable and heavily altered opponents' play patterns. Leaving DRC alone is not an option with the card selection, ease of delirium, and count to 20 combo speed.

    Stifle was as unreliable as ever on mana denial; I think I hit 2 Fetches all night. On the flip side, looking past the mulligans, my manabase was highly uninteractive, and around 3 enemy Wastelands targeting Saga walked into planned Stifles. Was happy to have cut down to 3x Stifle, made possible by Saga & Vista freeing up a slot for Mountian and finally dropping to 1x Volc.

    Lands (21+1)
    4x Vista
    4x Tarn
    5x Island
    2x Mountain (almost had to proxy the second one, but a friend had a spare)
    1x Volc
    3x Wasteland
    2x Saga
    1x Spikefield Hazard

    Dudes (9)
    4x DRC
    2x Lavamancer
    3x Nought

    Spells (29 + Spikefield counted in Lands)
    4x FoW
    4x BS
    4x Daze
    4x Standstill
    4x Bolt
    3x Stifle
    2x Dress Down
    2x Scroll of Fate
    2x Shark'nado

    SB
    2x Alpine Moon
    2x Suspend
    2x Abrade
    2x Ashiok
    2x Pyroblast
    1x REB
    1x Staticaster
    1x Relic
    1x super-Chandra
    1x Surgical (suboptimal, couldn't find Phyrexian Furnace)

    Things to look for in SB: effect that exiles artifacts without being unplayably worse than Abrade (causing sacrifice is okay too), enchantment hate. Generally consider Teferi's Realm, Invasive Surgery,, Torpor Orb, TNN (this changes Suspend towards Mystic Reflection), Flame Blitz, and other 1cmc target over Surgical (primarily Furnace-types, Needle, Cursed Scroll, or maybe Silent Gravestone). A good wrath spell would be ideal, but none worth playing exist in UR, and honestly Fury or Powder Keg are probably the best bets.

  7. #4707
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by ageeerosa View Post
    A quick suggestion that im see could help you out. I would replace a island for another off color dual to make explosives stronger.
    That's a great way to lose the game to B2B, Moon, and Wasteland. This tactic died in 2012 when maindeck EEs with Trinket Mages fell out of playable. The suggestion you're making, if building optimally, would be to have 1x Expedition Map and 1x Lotus Field, both in the board. We don't have slots for this, but it is not an unreasonable way to beat Choke.

  8. #4708
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    FR D&D set doesn't have much of interest:
    Hall of Storm Giants - potentially a better manland than Field of the Dead in UW Dreadstill at 2x copies, based solely on the fact that it can produce blue. Definitely a good way to punish Choke. Cost is acceptable at around $1.25 per copy.
    Monk Class - has some issues competing with Teferi for slots, but this card is quite playable. Cost is acceptable at 80cents, unlikely to need more than 2 copies.
    Yuan-Ti Malison - not so much for legacy play, but this seems undercosted at 60cents. I can't imagine a standard player is going to find a better card than a 2cmc 2/1 unblockable dungeon trigger.

    Big whiff on the white dragon-manland. If that was 3/4 lifelink instead of flying, it would be in the discussion.

  9. #4709

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Yesterday Fox and I recorded a talk about Dreadstill - sort of a decktech and a match analysis. I hope you guys enjoy it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQR0oftZm70

  10. #4710
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    ...and Dreadstill takes the 5-0! Congrats @Piproberts. The deterministically dead on board timeout by Cartesian has been avenged in full. We will be making another video showing a second Stiflenought deck losing badly b/c it ran Ponder. This concept will continue to be hammered home until it sinks in.

    Matchups in order: Goblins, Reanimator, Reanimator, Grixis Stiflenought, mono-red Painter.

    BR Reanimator has lost 4 matches in a row rather convincingly. Always nice to see Chancellor 'sploiters get dunked on.

    Chancellor is an effect which shouldn't exist, but then again neither should the ability to fire off >1 Pact (without first dealing with the impending trigger)...and then again if you resolve a discard spell you should lose the game if you can't win in 5 turns. Alas, we'll never see the quality of life Chancellor + Surgical package ban, and there are bigger fish to fry: Daze and/or Ragavan.

  11. #4711
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I watched some of them. The deck looks very strong, was piloted better in those matches, and performed very well. It was also a lot more interesting to watch you advising Piproberts real-time instead of discussing the replay.

    Good luck with the Dreadstill Bootcamp.

  12. #4712
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-RcXkxAVJo&t=6s We finally got around to recording the second encounter with Stiflenought. Just did games 1 and 3 for speed. Game 2 they won with a turn 0 Delver and just enough Wasteland to slow down a 4/4 Dragon as blocker.

    Played paper today and went 3-1. Wins vs Dead Guy Ale, TurboDepths, and GW Depths. Loss to Gyruda Bomberman. Fun games, and the deck felt great. Depths decks play so hard into Ashiok, it's pretty comical. Almost felt bad for the Depths decks in the room, they had 2x Dreadnought decks sharking the 10-person event. Any time 20% of the event is playing Humility, you know you're in for a good time. Room was Dead Guy Ale, UWR Ragavan, NicFit Smog, Elves, UW Dreadstill, UWG Stiflenought, TurboDepths, GW Depths, Bomberman, and something like madness....maybe [unsure].

  13. #4713

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I'm currently watching the recording https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAAn6Qy8OFw Just got through round 2 game 1, will probably have to stop at some point soon but will continue latter.

    First off, let me say that the commentary quality is really good, and you offer a lot of insight.

    At 43:02, you mention fetching to avoid drawing the basic Island. Wouldn't leaving the Vista uncracked be better? The dragon already gives you land four so that you can eternalize next turn. They swing with everything, you block the 3/3, go to 1, and maybe have another turn to work with. Of course, you're very much on the back seat and essentially any additional creature kills you, but doesn't that line give you a bit more hope? Or am I missing something?

    I agree that, with the benefit of hindsight, an early Dreadnought + Stifle might've been the correct play, but I also agree with taking the more conservative line, even if it didn't play out. As you say, the risk is too high.
    It's also scientifically proven that resolving Nicol Bolas during a competitive legacy event causes the caster's penis to grow a good two or three inches.
    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    But winning out of nowhere takes away the fun of grinding out your opponents with Manlands. Nothing is more satisfying than a game of Magic where you throw away half the fun, and claim the other half for yourself and leave your opponent with zero fun.

  14. #4714
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    There are different consistency engines in magic. One school of thought is to leave up a Fetch for Brainstorm. The strikes against this view are:
    -Brainstorm doesn't exactly do much when you deploy as many land drops as you can. This style represents consistent shrinking of hand size, driving towards hellbent Brainstorm (a largely useless play).
    -the odds of drawing a Brainstorm vs an Island is going to be about 50-50 odds. It is particularly bad to topdeck the last land a Fetch could grab when it was totally avoidable. Even if other Fetch targets remain, aggro Fetch'ing is increasingly statistically impactful when it comes to not drawing lands. Contrast this to a Ponder user who has more control over drawing a Brainstorm vs remaining Fetch'ables.

    In a scenario where I can choose to survive at 1 with a dead Fetch vs improving odds of winning topdeck, I will generally choose playing to win. About the only time I wouldn't Fetch is if I think oppo has a Bolt - here Fetch is acting like Duress taking Lightning Bolt by sitting on the field. The other thing to keep in mind is that Dreadnought + Plow is gain 12, so the deck isn't playing by the same rules as other decks.

  15. #4715

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    There are different consistency engines in magic. One school of thought is to leave up a Fetch for Brainstorm. The strikes against this view are:
    -Brainstorm doesn't exactly do much when you deploy as many land drops as you can. This style represents consistent shrinking of hand size, driving towards hellbent Brainstorm (a largely useless play).
    -the odds of drawing a Brainstorm vs an Island is going to be about 50-50 odds. It is particularly bad to topdeck the last land a Fetch could grab when it was totally avoidable. Even if other Fetch targets remain, aggro Fetch'ing is increasingly statistically impactful when it comes to not drawing lands. Contrast this to a Ponder user who has more control over drawing a Brainstorm vs remaining Fetch'ables.
    My point was not regarding card selection, but rather the extra life-loss from fetching. The opponent put you to 0 exactly after using Vista. Had you not used Vista, you'd be at 1 and have a dragon out. It's by no means a solid position to be in, but it's better than losing, I think.
    It's also scientifically proven that resolving Nicol Bolas during a competitive legacy event causes the caster's penis to grow a good two or three inches.
    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    But winning out of nowhere takes away the fun of grinding out your opponents with Manlands. Nothing is more satisfying than a game of Magic where you throw away half the fun, and claim the other half for yourself and leave your opponent with zero fun.

  16. #4716
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    In that game vs goblins I'm not statistically winning vs Vial [pseudo-haste], haste goblin lord, etc... by trying to survive at 1. The best way to win is maximize chances of drawing Verdict and saying "they don't have Sling-Gang, or Matron for Sling-Gang, or haste lord + second Goblin."

    Plow topdeck also translates to +12 life if drawn.

  17. #4717
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Another 3-1 in paper. Decks in room were UR Dreadstill, UW Dreadstill (me), UWR Ragavan (a derivative of my UR Dreadstill list) vs Gaak, KassariPost, NicFit Smog, GW Depths, Prowess-Burn, BUG value, Painter, and one unknown. Wins vs GW Depths, KassariPost, and UR Dreadstill; loss to Prowess-Burn. Never could find the second Plow to gain 12 sadly, but congrats to the opponent on going 4-0.

    Initially Post and Burn had a bet that the deck with a worse record at the end would buy the other a Lilly of the Fail or FoW. Post got the bye round 1 and they called it off, ending the subgame. Was a pretty fun day with Standstill warping the meta to such a degree, even if we did occasionally have to teamkill. Will be fun to what the other decks do to adapt if we keep team Standstill at this meta share.

  18. #4718

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Hi, long time reader, first time poster here.
    @Fox, I was watching the gameplay video you made with piproberts ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAAn6Qy8OFw ) - it's a great resource to learn from.
    I have a few questions about it:
    First, in the last game (against D&T), what was wrong with the 7-card hand? It had two lands and double Swords - to an unskilled player like me, it seems pretty fine...
    Second (and more controversial), throughout the games, there were several spots where you were hoping to draw some specific card (land, Verdict, Karakas, Karn etc.) - isn't this exactly where Ponder/Preordain would be really good? I understand that under Standstill it's better to draw real lands and not Ponder, but if there's no Standstill and you are looking for something specific, it just seems it could get you out of some situations where just praying for the topdeck doesn't help.

  19. #4719
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by snugar_i View Post
    I have a few questions about it:
    First, in the last game (against D&T), what was wrong with the 7-card hand? It had two lands and double Swords - to an unskilled player like me, it seems pretty fine...
    Second (and more controversial), throughout the games, there were several spots where you were hoping to draw some specific card (land, Verdict, Karakas, Karn etc.) - isn't this exactly where Ponder/Preordain would be really good? I understand that under Standstill it's better to draw real lands and not Ponder, but if there's no Standstill and you are looking for something specific, it just seems it could get you out of some situations where just praying for the topdeck doesn't help.
    The seven card hand was okay enough to keep, and turned out to be better than the 6 and the 5. When assessing the hand you know you have to lead on Strand and grab basic Plains. The next land has to be Storm Giants - meaning I must topdeck a Stifle or an Eternal Dragon on my first draw step (otherwise the top 2 of 3 cards of the deck have to be lands). In terms of what goes wrong: they get to resolve Vial and/or Waste me and/or follow with a Thalia or Port. This vs my hand that doesn't really have a plan + a FoW I can't pitch. In a post-board game I'm happier going for a hand with more lands [less ability for DnT to interact] and 7 looks for a card like Torpor Orb.

    On cantrips like Ponder and Preordain - why would I want this card vs a quad-laser Spirit of the Labyrinth deck? I would side out Ponder immediately vs DnT. I would do the same thing vs Chalice.

    Playing Ponder-types with Stifle is also self-defeating; you're just saying Stifle will get Dazed and they will have all their mana for that turn b/c you tapped down for Ponder. I have no interest in casting cards like Ponder before land #3...and if I've already hit these early land drops through deck construction, Ponder isn't adding much. To review, the only thing Ponder is good for is cheating on land totals [too few] and cheating on crazy colored requirements [too many]. After this point you are losing interaction, because Ponder takes slots. What you're doing past this point better lead to a win the turn you go off or be the most power-crept 1-card combo at the time (DRC, Ragavan, Murktide, Uro, Ice-Fang, Endurance, insert PW, etc). When you are combining multiple cards to achieve a greater effect, all that Ponder can do is make your deck one dimensional [easier to stop, and also easier to Daze] - you can watch two sample videos vs Stiflenought kill itself at deck construction b/c it played Ponder, and there was just nothing they could do worth worrying about. It's an incredibly predictable sequence, and the lessons can also be applied to decks with underpowered 1-card combos (UWx Blade or Mentor for example); consistent + underpowered = consistently underpowered = tier 2.5

    While this list has less control over what it draws, everything it draws is designed to combo together with every other piece [as much as is possible]. No matter what I draw, the chances are it forces a trade, and eventually the opponent runs out of relevant trades...at this point overwhelming advantage begins stacking up. Not only does Ponder interfere with this process, but it also doesn't help white mana hands find blue mana...so you have to lose cards to mulls or risk being unable to continue to use mana. At all points I want to draw a Timeless Dragon or Shark'nado or Azcanta or Standstill or Storm Giants before I'd want to see a Ponder.

  20. #4720
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    3-0 in paper with wins over BW Dead Guy Ale, 80 card DnT, and mono-R Painter. Other decks in the room were 4c Uro midrange, RG Lands, and I forget the last two.

    Against DnT, since we were discussing that matchup, they lost game 2 to double Dragon + Cursed Scroll the Flickerwisp/Mother of Runes exploit. Game 3 the game spiraled out of their control and they were eventually drawing 1 card per turn vs Karn, Scroll of Fate, Torpor Orb, Mastery, Azcanta, Crucible, and 8 mana (outdrawn 3 to 1 per turn). Unlike trying to play Ponder vs quad-Spirit of the Labyrinth, you focus on the mana and combo all your pieces together...and each time they falter, you add more pieces. Your opponent should be able to pick up their deck and tutor every draw step and still lose after a successful midgame. Ponder cannot deliver this level of power.

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