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Thread: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

  1. #4581
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    New card got spoiled: Strict Proctor

    1W, Flying, 1/3

    Whenever a permanent entering the battlefield causes a trigger, counter that ability unless it's controller pays 2.


    So....thoughts for Dreadnought?
    Better to just use husbringer since this deck doesn't really play ETB except for Dreadnought.

  2. #4582
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    New card got spoiled: Strict Proctor

    1W, Flying, 1/3

    Whenever a permanent entering the battlefield causes a trigger, counter that ability unless it's controller pays 2.

    So....thoughts for Dreadnought?
    Prefer Tocatli (blocks Confidant, Thalia, etc) b/c I can actually make plans that go beyond "this card does nothing to stop triggers after turn 4."

    Torpor Orb that also hits cast triggers or Torpor Orb on a land [preferably common to clean up pauper] and we'll have something to talk about. Bonus points if super Torpor Orb is also a Cursed Totem + stopping cast triggers.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Looked over Strixhaven, not much there:
    Test of Talents not really needed with FoN, and Khans had Psychic Rebuttal. The card is playable however. Costs around $0.5 which is appropriate.
    Tend the Pests wrong colors for Dreadnought, but instant allows it to mimic Empty the Warrens. Costs around $0.5 which is appropriate.
    Quandrix Command anti-Lage, anti-Thassa, anti-Grindstone. Protects own permanents. Costs around 80 cents, so worth it to pick up 1-2x.
    Hall of Oracles pretty decent with Mishra's Factory. Costs around 50 cents, worth spec'ing on a couple since it's better than Gavony Township ($1.5-2.5 depending on version).

    Learn stuff:
    Divide by Zero can find Confront the Past and little else is worth tutoring. mechanic currently irrelevant.
    ---
    Commander has less:
    Cunning Rhetoric anti-Hymn spam, as these decks hide behind SCM and Strix. Currently overpriced a $5.
    ---
    Of note there were two reprints of life gained = life drained in Commander, and Strixhaven had BG dude who almost had the right text but it only says "when you gain, drain 1." Getting closer to combining Shadow and Dreadnought + Arguel's Blood Fast. Eventually they will screw up and print something more playable than Vito. On the topic of WB, now is a good time to pick up 1-2x Kaya 3cmc for $4 each.

  4. #4584

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Really loving this video, I think this might be the best way to abuse Dreadnought...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePZNWa8_KaE

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Stacking 9x Topor Orb effects that don't get better in multiples is most certainly not the best way to play Dreadnought. That deck is dead to the variance of half its cards having no text: Lands and Torpor effects. It also has red for absolutely no reason.

    Tomb, City, and Stompy pieces do not go with Dreadnought. Save your money, that deck has horrific amounts of financial waste without competitive progress.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Stacking 9x Topor Orb effects that don't get better in multiples is most certainly not the best way to play Dreadnought. That deck is dead to the variance of half its cards having no text: Lands and Torpor effects. It also has red for absolutely no reason.

    Tomb, City, and Stompy pieces do not go with Dreadnought. Save your money, that deck has horrific amounts of financial waste without competitive progress.
    Watch the boshnroll videos. Its much more entertaining and his decks are better.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by KobeBryan View Post
    Watch the boshnroll videos. Its much more entertaining and his decks are better.
    Yeah, the nice thing about his Standstill and Dreadnought VoDs is that despite the deckbuild issues, BoshNRoll is better able to identify cards that matter and to recognize when deckbuild errors lead to futile board states turns in advance. The sideboard is generally higher quality, and BoshNRoll is proficient at understanding the context of cards in a matchup, and this leads to more correct than incorrect sideboarding. When summing up the deck at the end, his assessments are more correct than incorrect.

    In comparison ThrabenU's Standstill and Dreadnought VoDs often have oversimplified maindecks, with more profound flaws, and self-defeating sideboard strategies. In his defense these are largely unaltered donation lists, and they generally come up short in predictable ways. As he plays these out, there is a heavy skew towards living off the topdeck, rather than looking turns in advance. This type of loose play leads to death by topdecking cards like Standstill; but it's also not surprising when one is conditioned by getting handed effortless value that can be jammed into any boardstate [i.e. outside of staring down a Plague Engineer or the threat of one, DnT's play experience doesn't really lend itself to taking one's time]. If you look past the tendency he has to stay in lost games far too long and the often questionable card evaluation at sideboarding, you have generally reasonable plays with a decklist that is more or less destined to fail. Unfortunately he routinely goes the extra step to make woefully misguided hot takes on the entire archetype based upon these donation leagues.

    Regardless of which of their lists we're talking about, dual lands are heavily overutilized and give a false idea of the cost of entry to the format, during one of the more ridiculous periods of price spikes. More than this, manabases this unstable miss the point of Dreadstill and Standstill/Landstill: to pursue a coherent strategy of consistent mana progression - i.e. just use Prismatic Vista. Those who play mono-U Dreadnought are guilty of something similar; there is nothing stopping them from playing 4x Tarn 4x Vista and 1x Mountain either as land #19 or Wasteland #4; WotC literally handed them Bolt and SB Blasts on a silver platter when they made Vista.

  8. #4588

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by KobeBryan View Post
    Watch the boshnroll videos. Its much more entertaining and his decks are better.
    I really liked that video. Wondering if anyone is playing that deck with lazav the multifarious. Attacking as Uro then switch to dreadnought looked amazing.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by n3d View Post
    I really liked that video. Wondering if anyone is playing that deck with lazav the multifarious. Attacking as Uro then switch to dreadnought looked amazing.
    You can find some games with a deck like that on 90sMTG videos.

    Be aware though that the deck isn't stable; it falls into the trap of not only being weak to Surgical target Dreadnought, but by playing Uro it guarantees opponents will bring in the Surgicals. Also there is no world where you can play that deck without Wastelands b/c Surgical Dreadnought, have a Karakas puts the deck on the only out of Scroll of Fate making 2/2s.

    In BoshNRolls SB'ing be aware that boarding out Dreadnoughts and submitting a deck with just Lazav and Uro is pretty much a deterministic loss to yard hate, with the *only* out being to find a Scroll of Fate [of which the deck played too few].

    The greater problem is that you could just play BUG value and cut the Dreadnought stuff for Living Wish boarding out 1 Uro, and have achieved the same thing: an Uro deck that has a non-GY path to winning. Again be very aware that siding out Dreadnoughts [your most numerous non-GY path to victory] is wildly incorrect.

  10. #4590

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Be aware though that the deck isn't stable; it falls into the trap of not only being weak to Surgical target Dreadnought, but by playing Uro it guarantees opponents will bring in the Surgicals.
    Ohh I agree, but with playing lower tier decks there is always this kind of trade off.

    Also, was reading through this thread and say a deck list from a month ago. Has anything changed with Strathaven for this deck?

  11. #4591
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    On the trade-off, there's always the tier 2 trade-off of increased power with increased variance; but you don't have the luxury of deckbuilding and sideboarding into losses to cards known to be in meta-deck sideboards. The stock Dreadstill list hasn't changed, though there are two approaches of Daze vs no-Daze. I would lean towards no-Daze in this meta. Strixhaven and commander breakdown can be found a few posts above; nothing has changed with these sets.

  12. #4592

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I have not found standstill necessary, Uro fills a similar role that standstill did of buying time by gaining life, drawing cards and allowing you to build up your manabases.

    I agree with the people who say Hushbringer is far superior to Torpor Orb/Proctor/Mask etc.

    People are sleeping on Hushbringer and Dreadnought. Hushbringer is incidental hate against so much of the format (goblins, death and taxes, veteran explorer, academy rector, stitcher's supplier, thought-knot seer, doomsday/thassa's oracle, Snapcaster Mage etc). Torpor Orb doesn't hit Veteran Explorer/Academy Rector, doesn't beat for 1 to block a turn one goblin lackey when on the play or have life link to slow burn.

    Hushbringer and Stifle pair incredibly well with Dreadnought and Uro in the Xerox shell, alongside Daze and Wasteland to give you another angle with which to abuse Stifle (the cantrips are fantastic at finding counterbackup and missing parts of the combo). The below maindeck has been performing incredibly well for me.

    //Core Cards

    4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

    4 Hushbringer

    4 Brainstorm

    4 Ponder

    2 Preordain

    4 Force of Will

    4 Stifle

    4 Daze



    //Flex Slots

    2 Swords to Plowshares

    1 Teferi, Time Raveler

    1 Mother of Runes

    1 Spell Snare

    1 Spell Pierce



    //Mana

    1 Noble Hierarch

    4 Wasteland

    2 Tropical Island

    1 Snow-Covered Island

    2 Windswept Heath

    1 Island

    2 Tundra

    1 Snow-Covered Plains

    1 Snow-Covered Forest

    1 Karakas

    4 Flooded Strand



    It plays a lot like Delver if Delver only had to get 2 swings in to kill the opponent.


    //Sideboard (Built using only cards that I already had so has significant room for improvement)

    2 Swords to Plowshares

    2 Deafening Silence

    1 Ravenous Trap

    4 Veil of Summer

    2 Blue Elemental Blast

    1 Pithing Needle

    1 Mother of Runes

    2 Containment Priest



    I came very close to 5-0ing with this list. I won game 1 every time but seem to be having difficulty in my postboard games. I know that my sideboard needs work, as I'm very new to Legacy MTGO and built the sideboard mostly using cards that I already happened to have from playing Modern and Pauper on MTGO.

    Here is a video showing the first draft of the Mardu Vaka Nought list in action though the current build replaces Eater of Days with Kroxa...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQ3BwELMIBI&t=1s

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    It's fairly pointless to play Teferi just to make sorcery speed, summoning sick, phased-in Noughts and pass to the opponent's mainphase.

    On Hushbringer: useless in multiples. Scroll of Fate can transmute extra copies of itself into 2/2s - something you need, since Uro is a lightning rod for Surgical [and your list does nothing with Nought and Uro hit by Surgical].

    The thing you've forgotten about Torpor Orb is that it can sit in the SB, which means it's still part of the maindeck b/c of Karn [except we don't have to risk drawing it]. Karn also wishes for Noughts in exile or SB. The combination of Karn and Scroll of Fate dumpsters Chalice.

    Veteran Explorer is not a card we need to answer - all that card does is ramp us into Shark Typhoon. The main cards you need to beat in legacy are: Goyf, Counterbalance, Hymn, Echo, and Uro. Outside of that there is really only Thassa, Chalice, GY-using combo pieces [includes Loam], E-Bridge, SnT, Dark Depths, Vial, and if you have the tools Allosaurus Shepherd and Veil.

    Other than Thassa, Vial, and Depths your deck isn't really convincing vs the rest, particularly if they run Surgical postboard. A key point about attacking those cards: your strategy isn't allowed to just die to removal and flying deathtouch cantrip walls. You are all-in on Uro for this, and that's incredibly fragile - both by itself and with a super suspect mana base behind it.

    If you have to play UG, take the loss and play those colors, also drop Daze. Dreadnought, Uro, Lotus Field all seen by Stifle. All of these work with the top end of Nissa of the 5/5s and Karn. Have Reclaimers [note how this finds Lotus Field], Ice-Fangs, and GSZ. Have some utility lands like Field of the Dead and Blast Zone. Have perfect mana: 4x Misty, 4x Vista, 1x Trop. If you need to you can add Verdict to the 75 and either cast it off Lotus or pitch it to one of the 6 pitch-counters.

    The video you posted is his most recent BW version that perfectly demonstrates how doing the Dreadnought thing as hard as you can isn't an effective way to play legacy. Like at least play Opposition Agent if you have Dark Rit in not-Storm. The mana was also atrocious, including totally unforced 3x Scrubland. I don't understand his fascination with losing to Wasteland for no reason. It just can't be that hard to play 4x BW Fetch and 4x Vista with 5x Swamp 1x Plains 1x Scrub....

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    The video you posted is his most recent BW version that perfectly demonstrates how doing the Dreadnought thing as hard as you can isn't an effective way to play legacy. Like at least play Opposition Agent if you have Dark Rit in not-Storm. The mana was also atrocious, including totally unforced 3x Scrubland. I don't understand his fascination with losing to Wasteland for no reason. It just can't be that hard to play 4x BW Fetch and 4x Vista with 5x Swamp 1x Plains 1x Scrub....
    People pay him to play their decklists, you could argue because they like to explore fun, even if bad, deck ideas. He's very honest about how good/bad the deck performs as well; he gives it a small moment on the most recent Eternal Glory podcast.

    For the life of me I don't know why you continue to maintain such a high emphasis on Hymn to Tourach and Counterbalance. At this point in history they are fringe cards, at best.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    People pay him to play their decklists, you could argue because they like to explore fun, even if bad, deck ideas. He's very honest about how good/bad the deck performs as well; he gives it a small moment on the most recent Eternal Glory podcast.

    For the life of me I don't know why you continue to maintain such a high emphasis on Hymn to Tourach and Counterbalance. At this point in history they are fringe cards, at best.
    You should fast forward to his breakdown of the deck, the worse it performs the more he lauds it. The deck went 2-3 and picked up at least one if its wins from DnT, which is one of that build's few free wins. He is at least right that the deck consistently did it's thing, but he missed the next part: the thing isn't good enough by itself. In addition to making big things consistenly, the deck consistently: mulligan'd, got wasted, got 2 for 1'd by killing the Torpor effect, and sat there drawing the wrong half of the deck, and failed to untap & attack with the big things.

    On Hymn and CB, the way this works is CB is less offensively reliable since the banning of SDT....but the moment people start spamming Hymn, all the Tundra mages run to CB and roll the luck dice. The only thing that can break this cycle is a 1-card combo that ignores Hymn spam [currently Uro; previously Oko, DHA, Breach, Lurrus, Wrenn, DTT, TC].

    When a 1-card combo invalidates Hymn, all the spammers have to play it and all the would-be CB exploiters hilariously end up on the exact same jammy jam midrange pile as the Hymn spammers. It would be a mistake to think Hymn is gone; they're just waiting for the last proactive anti-Hymn card to be banned.

  16. #4596

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    On Hymn and CB, the way this works is CB is less offensively reliable since the banning of SDT....but the moment people start spamming Hymn, all the Tundra mages run to CB and roll the luck dice. The only thing that can break this cycle is a 1-card combo that ignores Hymn spam [currently Uro; previously Oko, DHA, Breach, Lurrus, Wrenn, DTT, TC].

    When a 1-card combo invalidates Hymn, all the spammers have to play it and all the would-be CB exploiters hilariously end up on the exact same jammy jam midrange pile as the Hymn spammers. It would be a mistake to think Hymn is gone; they're just waiting for the last proactive anti-Hymn card to be banned.
    "It would be a mistake to think Hymn is gone, Hymn would come back if the format was different"

    It sounds like Hymn is in fact gone then? You arent even disagreeing with Mr safety comment that "At this point in history they are fringe cards, at best"

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    "It would be a mistake to think Hymn is gone, Hymn would come back if the format was different"

    It sounds like Hymn is in fact gone then? You arent even disagreeing with Mr safety comment that "At this point in history they are fringe cards, at best"
    You missed the part about Hymn being the most protected card by bans. Given that history it would not be surprising to see Uro banned. Ask yourself where all the Hymn spammers are - hint: on Uro.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    You missed the part about Hymn being the most protected card by bans. Given that history it would not be surprising to see Uro banned. Ask yourself where all the Hymn spammers are - hint: on Uro.
    That's ridiculous; you're the only person that I've ever read about Hymn being a ban-worthy card. The most protected card by bans is Brainstorm, I don't think there is a reasonable debate about it, and you could argue that there are other cards that are more protected than Hymn (Delver of Secrets comes to mind.) I wouldn't ask myself where all the Hymn spammers are, because Hymn isn't a powerful enough card in the current legacy metagame. Do you genuinely think that if Uro gets banned Hymn will make a miraculous reappearance? It has certainly played a role in legacy, and may do that again, but it hasn't in a long time. Bringing it up, alongside another fringe card like Counterbalance, doesn't make any sense. If those cards are barely played, why would we build with them in mind? It seems to me that once legacy makes a shift, such as with Arcanistn, Oko, Uro, etc, it doesn't ever really go back to a previous status quo. Each year more cards slip away from the metagame. Hymn is likely going to be one of those cards. EDIT: are you speaking specifically of Veil of Summer? That's been relegated to a sideboard card, and one that rarely appears in quantities more than 2.

    I'm pretty sure the Hymn-spammers are a fantasy...Hymn to Tourach according to mtgtop8 is the 130th most played card, beaten out by legacy powerhouse format-warpers Birds of Paradise, Inquisition of Kozilek, and Mishra's Factory. None of the decks to beat, in any forum, plays Hymn to Tourach.
    Brainstorm Realist

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  19. #4599
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Not banned does not equal protected by bans.

    Bans in legacy do not correlate with keeping Brainstorm or Delver of Secrets relevant. Hard stop.
    Bans in legacy do correlate with keeping Hymn relevant.

    Increased hand size in zone you can't discard - banned [SDT].
    Reverse the discards - banned [DTT]
    Competing double discard - banned [Probe, into Therapy. specifically Grixis Delver]
    Pick up the discards, machine gun flying deathouch cantrip walls - banned [Wrenn]
    One card combo using the discards - banned [Breach, Lurrus, DHA]
    One card combo that invalidates every single one of Hymn's onboard value engines - banned [Oko]

    One card combo, immune to discard b/c of recursion - not yet banned [Uro]
    One card combo that can't be maindecked profitably outside of TES or SnT - irrelevant/narrow [Veil]

    Do you genuinely think that if Uro gets banned Hymn will make a miraculous reappearance?
    Of freaking course I do, b/c Shardless, Blade, Czech, Grixis, not-Delver Wrenn, not-Delver Oko, not-Delver Uro is the same deck with the same pilots. They are playing Uro b/c its dumpsters Hymn, the very card they would otherwise revert to within minutes of an Uro ban. On the Counterbalance side, it's not proactively reliable anymore. That's why they're on the anti-Hymn card [Uro] - that's the joke. There isn't actually a difference between a Hymn spammer or a Counterbalance exploiter.

    Legacy is a very simple format: Goyf -> total hand destruction (Hymn/SCM, CB, Probe, Echo/LED) -> 1 card combos that don't care if you destroy their hand or play Goyf [Uro, Oko, Wrenn, DHA, Lurrus, Breach]. Now sure, there are some minor cards/effects to care about outside this like Vial, Loam, Chalice, SnT, Thassa, Ensnaring Bridge, [insert combo card that uses GY], etc...But at the end of the day it's just total hand destruction currently held at bay by Uro.

    Insofar as we don't have to play the farce that was the CB/SDT, Czech, or Grixis era, it's technically progress. At the same time, it's not like the cards that opt-out of dying to Goyf are healthy (Strix, Ice-Fang, SFM, SCM, Uro]. Neither are the cards that opt-out of dying to CB or Hymn healthy (Post, Cavern, Vial, Boseju, Uro, Klothys, 6cmc Chandra-types, Echo-derping, Thassa, Field of the Dead). It's easy to get lost in all the things going on in legacy, but players should still be able to spot the 800 pound gorilla: total hand destruction.

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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    You are alone in this sentiment, I think. For myself, I will not operate under the assumption that I need to build my decks with Hymn to Tourach and Counterbalance in mind. That just isn't reality. I find your statements amusing, but ultimately unconvincing.
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