Decay is probably the easiest answer to deal with; the list not only maindecks Misdirection, but also has wastelands and stifle to keep them off rather disparate mana. If you really need more levels of protection, I'd suggest focusing on cards that also get dreadnought into play like Vision Charm - phasing is too hard a counter for decay to deal with.Originally Posted by B88
the only card i have afraid is decay! if i play Mothers i couldn't play Sulfur wich is such a good card right now, even more i can't play Moon wich still one of the best card against Jund and Shardless bug.
but vision is bad in all others mu where trickbind is good
anyway i'll try the Ur version (maybe with one sea in md for perish in sb) and i'll let you know how it works!
You'd actually be hard-pressed to find a single MU where it is irrelevant - and that's overlooking the fact that it cheats a dreadnought into play or protects it when resolved. The only one that comes to mind [if we ignore primary uses] is vs dredge - in any case it's more likely to be meaningfully cast than a Swords, and still pitches to FoW/Misdirection. Vision Charm also is a free win against Doomsday and High Tide.but vision is bad in all others mu where trickbind is good
i respect your opinion but for me trickbind is better than vision for the primary reason...denial!
If by denial you mean mana denial via fetch stifling, I'd highly suggest Jace, Vryn's Prodigy to hit them on the way in [fetches] and then on the way out [stiflenought] without needing 2 mana in the same turn for snapcaster.
my score right now is:
4-2 vs infect
2-0 vs miracle
0-2 vs lands
0-2 vs grixis pyromancer (quite unlucky)
4-2 vs sneak
2-3 vs Det
2-0 vs 4c delver
2-1 vs team america
this is the list
4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Counterbalance
3 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
4 Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
3 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Standstill
1 Trickbind
3 Trinket Mage
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Underground Sea
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Izzet Staticaster
i would like find a room for jace 2.0 in MD or in sb but i don't know what i should cut!
Bolt and Snare are the most situational, I'd begin there. Can also see an argument for cutting out one Trinket Mage.
but snare takes care of tarmo and cb wich are both played in this time!
I'm curious what lists you guys are running currently....I see some people are still running Delver-less lists..
I'm not so sure I'm confortable ever doing that as I believe Delver to be the most powerful creature in the game atm.
UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
Has anyone explored the interaction between Eldrazi Mimic and Phyrexian Dreadnought?
Eldrazi Mimic is certainly decent, but the 2 mana cost may be too slow for us...lest we digress into the land of MUD (sol lands). In theory though, I love the idea of the 2/1 body that's really just another way to cheat dreadnoughts into play - often times you're looking at a situation where "I've got 4 dreads and 4 delvers [or DRS] in my list, and can't figure out what the 4x 2-drop is supposed to look like," so this creature is certainly a good way to bring us to that 12-15 critter mark. Chucking dreads to make this Mimic a 12/12 non-trampler seems suboptimal (without the terribly slow [but stylish] super value game of Mimic + Volrath's Shapeshifter)...so realistically we are looking at turn 2 mimic -> turn 3 attack for 2 [maybe] + stack triggers for [real] dreadnought into play with +1 mana up -> turn 4 attack with dreadnought into JTMS mana? It seems like a great meta call if you want to use a different counter suite (swap out 3-4x Daze since we're deferring dreadnought into our next untap step). Otherwise, I think you'll find it competing for very high-impact slots like Torpor Orb and Illusionary Mask, while simultaneously not being an artifact itself (harder to interact with phasing, harder to pull off through lodestone golem). The other very powerful thing you can do with this card though is run Aether Vial on x=1 and blow out any opponent who ever tries to proactively remove this 2/1, having to resign themselves to the continuous possibility of flashed-in dreadnoughts.
The Mimic has pretty broad implications, even out to the point of Thran Lens (depending on how much spice you want to bring to your meta); so it'll be important to know what color shell you are planning on running it in. In the unfocused abstract, you're changing the speed of your deck by 1 turn and losing percentage points vs prison (specifically tezzerator and MUD).
There are a couple of other cards that stick out in this new set for us:
-Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim - budget Diamond Valley shenanigans with less focus vs combo. Specific attention paid to "sacrifice" in the activation cost, and not the resolution.
-Call the Gatewatch - superfriends approach, but probably bad...style points for plainswalker toolbox I guess
-Matter Reshaper - plays well with the cantrip cartel +/- SDT
-Stormchaser Mage - the monastery swiftspear that kills delvers.
-Warping Wail - if you did go sol land variant.
-Dread Defiler - honorable mention on the path to WotC printing a card that makes dreadnought a 1-mana quad-bolt/quad-ancestral/quad-dark ritual.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
20 lands
Sideboard (15)
1 Misdirection
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce
2 Dismember
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Lightning Bolt
Your list is a bit overloaded with countermagic (13+7) - this represents an opportunity to add in Stormchaser Mage and drop the REBs a bit. Also seeing a lot of Goyf hate (3x snare main + 2 dismember sideboard), which tells us a bit about your meta. Don't understand the 3x Tormnod's given that dreadnought kills bridge from below, and surgical extraction is a much cleaner answer to graveyard strategies (no loss of info when you swap out git. probes and it is also a mana denial card).
I definitely think your 75 needs at least 3 slots to deal with prison pieces - especially chalice, as in all 3 need to address this in some capacity. Things to think about include:
-Removal: Ancient Grudge
-Taxes: Energy Flux
-Disbelief: Teferi's Realm
-Bounce: Hurkyl's Recall
-Old school: Illusionary Mask ~change the CMC
-Actual hate: Viashino Heretic or Pulverize
-Attacking the underlying mechanic: Vampire Hexmage, which you can't cast. Steady Progress which is the smartest approach.
Of those options I generally prefer ones that let you ignore and play through their hate, rather than simply blowing it up like a standard player would. The other thing the main deck feels like it needs is either snapcaster or flip-jace, the latter being best. The main reason to play stiflenought is that stifling fetches is only half of what we're trying to do, this deck is all about flashing it back to resolve the 12/12.
Hey
First thing first, it's great to see some activity on this thread. Dreadstill is a great deck, only a shame cards like Counterbalance and Abrupt Decay are too present to make it a real contender. But Hell it is fun to play with! :)
Personally, Pandaman's list does not feel particularly wrong to me. Spell Snare is probably one of the best answer to CB (since CB+top is a nightmare for the deck).
Misdirection is a great card (see comment about Decay, same applies to StP) but I prefer Divert to avoid ruining my hand.
However, I think that maybe cutting 1 Grim and 1 Snare to make space for 2 Snapcaster or Flip-Jace might be better.
Cutting 1 land to raise the number of Trickbind to 2 would eventually secure more Dreadnought landings too.
This being said, with the rise of Eldrazi-stompy/aggro decks, what about maindecking Torpor Orb (and then ditching Snapcaster in favor of flip-Jace)?
The idea is to prevent Thought-Knot Seer from triggering, as well as Eldrazi Mimic (along with blocking the usual shenanigans like Stoneforge, opposing Snapcaster, Reclamation Sage, etc), thus keeping our hand safe from Clique-like effect.
M2c
Counterbalance is miserable to play against, because of the sheer amount of weird hate you'd need - and that's the hidden strength of miracles: you need pretty specific [aka cloudpost and/or sol lands] deck construction, or the ability to side into unreasonably high CMC silver bullets, to beat counterbalance specifically. At some point you have to choose if fighting something so ban-able is really worth your time. The power level of counterbalance [in a format without the power 9] is such that a wasteland deck is honestly more likely to beat miracles by pursuing a policy of LD vs anything that makes white mana [including basics], than destroying its own mana base to be able to cast abrupt decay or boseju'd answers. Anyways counterbalance rant over, moving to decay.
A key point about abrupt decay is that you can pretty well rely on those decks to put out misdirection targets (DRS) the turn before they can cast decay; and when they cast decay it won't be off of two basics, and they'll need fetchlands more than likely - all of this is less than optimal vs an opponent using wasteland/stifle playsets. In these matchups stiflenought isn't losing to decay so much as losing to the fact that goyf is a 4/5 - if pandaman's deck is tuned for a meta, I have to imagine it has a lot of goyfs, enemy delvers, dredge, and an acute lack of turn 0 chalice (did you mull to force?), ok go.
Getting to the 800-pound gorilla of pandaman's list, prefaced in the last sentence, is that it has 4x Mishra's Factories as its only threats in the face of chalice on 1 - it really doesn't matter how much you draw off of standstill if a game ever gets to the point of resolved chalice, because there is no answer to draw into pre- or post-board.
Misdirection/Divert/Torpor Orb are all great; and ours is an archetype with rather unparalleled freedom to eviscerate new cards, as we can operate care-free under Cursed Totem, Null Rod, and Torpor Orb at the same time if we so chose. It can actually be about the most regressive, yet competitive, legacy deck which forces people to play in a pretty hostile 1995-1996 shell. That said, classic UR Dreadstill opts out of nightmarish old mechanics, and is generally more streamlined towards burn-delver (that is deliberately able to go over the top of batterskull and jitte) than pandaman's list.
His list is entirely solid cards to be sure (excluding tormnod's x3), but it is a little clunky (too many counters), and needs to be able to work its way out of a few gamestates. I definitely like brewing UR Dreadstill's burn aspect out of the maindeck, and look forward to hearing about that experience. Coming from a UB stiflenought background, I'm looking at his colors and I *really* want to be able to do things like: tutor pulverize into the graveyard, target it with flip-jace, sac 2 mountains, and blow up all the artifacts - because it's powerful, hilarious, and fun. While our color selections are totally different, I think most stiflenought players are similar in that we want those those competitive yet facepalm/chuckling moments where both parties are like "is this real life right now" that you can only really get in eternal magic, and hopefully we'll see more of this egregious ridiculousness out of our UR brethren...and on that note, where the hell are my Sultai Emissarys and Obnoxious Revivals!?!
Eldrazi Mimic seems insane, just saying. I like the fact he can permanently put Dreadnought into play or assassinate for 12 damage. Pretty cool card
UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
Hey all! finally someone on this thread! so let me show my actually list:
4 Force of Will
3 Standstill
3 Trinket Mage
4 Brainstorm
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Spell Snare
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Counterbalance
4 Stifle
3 Punishing Fire
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Misdirection
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Pierce
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Devastation Tide
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Repeal
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
i'm tryin the cb lock + pfire and it's look fine maybe wanna try to add daze but need more slots xD
Legacy:Sneak and Show
Modern:Griselbanned!
(Goryo's breach)
@ice1590 I'd be cautious about picking up lands with Daze and running 3x Trinket Mages - also quad grove + daze is tough. I understand that your list is kinda like punishing miracles list (your miracles are 12/12s and a Tide) + standstill. Moving forward from that understanding here are some issues I see:
-v. clique is a card I've never wanted to cast in a dreadnought list (your list wants to play like miracles, so maybe)
-you can't play blood moon/back to basics effects as you have too many groves
-missing 4x wastelands (unless you're not really using stifle for mana denial)
-missing mentor [cut the sulfur elemental].
-EE moves to sideboard, but eventually cut making room for karakas
-dreadnought decks don't really need cage; RiP is fine, surgical is better (you see their hand).
-snapcaster should be flip-jace (torpor orb is your friend).
Lots of little critiques in there, but the main thing is something has to change or the groves/p-fire have to go. If the groves stay, you'll want to stay away from daze and also use them to cast more than one sideboard copy of ancient grudge. There are some really great options in red and green, but I think you want to move towards being a dreadnought/mentor/counterbalance+top deck - should look a lot like miracles (or esper mentor lists), but with 20 lands max (4x wastelands included). Excess lands and terminusx4 become dreadnought/stifle package, any cliques from miracles list can be easily changed to 'gotcha' Hushwing Gryffs and Torpor Orb.
--------------
On a totally unrelated note I almost missed the most meaningful piece of dread-tech released in Oath of the Gatewatch: Holdout Settlement! This one took some reverse engineering, but it's busted wide open for BUG/UG/UB stiflenoughts - it's kinda horrifying how unintentionally good this common is.
Ok so we look at it in a vacuum like R&D did, they made Springleaf Drum a land; why all the fuss??? Two words Illusionary Mask.
Thank you, thank you, thank you Wizards! You didn't just make unmorphing a mask'd critter free (read the becomes tapped clause)...you gave us +1 rainbow mana when we do it...on a land...as a MANA ABILITY, hahahahaha! We just beat the Split Second mechanic - oh, and morphed cheapies like Willbender, Stratus Dancer, Fathom Seer, and Ainok Survivalist to name a few, are actually legacy playable now. Who knows if it'll be good, but they just turned-on a whole new way to have fun with Dreadnoughts - and I want to be the first to willbender an enemy K-grip right at their top, and let the opponent know they can't do anything about it, because they invoked split second.
Obscuring Aethers anyone?
Does Obscuring Aether work with Illusionary Mask like I very much want it to?? The Johnny in me is getting excited. Too bad Illusionary Mask is a $200 card.
Cut and edit for correct rulings:
-Mask is activated, it can be stifled/revoked/null rod'd.
-Obscuring Aether's cost reduction doesn't apply to activation, but it does fight Sphere effects.
-Power Artifact/Helm of Awakening-type effects don't work, whereas Soldevi Machinist types do.
-the cmc on the stack is 0, no matter what was paid into the mask.
Sadly the silly morph critters will have to wait for their day in the sun. Obscuring Aethers are out (unless you really hate miracles), something like DRS would have to go in. At the end of the day though, you still get to play faster than split second with relative ease now thanks to the holdout/mask interaction. It is certainly a lot of work, but on-board counters/misdirections/gushes due to better-than-free unmorphing are uniquely well-suited to fitting seamlessly into dreadnought gameplay. All new sets should be inspected from this angle as well.
Last edited by Fox; 02-22-2016 at 12:33 AM.
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