Here's What i'm starting with, what do you guys think?
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
4 Force of Will
4 REB/Pyroblast (Or is swords just better?)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
9 Blue Fetches
4 Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 REB Maindeck seems a bit excessive. I would run 1 max, and then play some removal/utility spells.
I have been working with the following list (it's been quite promising!). I like dropping rabblemaster in the late game, solid card that does solid stuff, though the black version with tombstalker might be better. My philosophy of the deck is that we should play cards that are strong when dropped right before or right after a standstill. My personal jury is still out on whether rabblemaster is better than tombstalker. It has been pretty decent.
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Standstill
1 Trickbind
3 Island
3 Wasteland
4 Brainstorm
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Spell Pierce
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
1 Counterspell
SB: 2 Misdirection
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Blood Moon
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
Emptying the Warrens: So YOU don't have to!
Since this deck kind of revolves around resolving a huge threat and protecting it, any thoughts on the new Thing in Ice? Just kind of a thought:
4 Delver
3 Dreadnought
3 Thing in Ice
2 Tombstalker
4 Force
4 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Misdirectionu
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Standstill
2 Murderous Cut
3 Disfigure
18 land
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
@megadeus
The dreadnought is how the deck goes over the top, but it is just as content to play (and win) like delver. The main difference is how we choose to fight equipment, and that we're one of the only decks that should be using stifle. A 1-mana stone rain isn't good enough, which is why we use flip-jace to recast, resulting in a 12/12 trampler. It should be noted that "this deck kind" is being applied to a family of decks whose similarity can end as low as 16/75 cards [brainstorm, FoW, dreadnought, stifle]. It is generally true though that most want it to live and turn sideways.
As far as Thing in the Ice goes, it probably belongs in a dreadnought list before any other legacy deck; but even here it seems lackluster. It's especially awkward with standstill and doesn't win a game through a chalice, for example...if I'm spamming spells into a chalice, I want Stormchaser Mage's prowess or young pyro tokens, not a turn of 8-power unblockability. There's certainly fun to be had with counter removal, but Hex Parasite has a cmc issue, leaving you with the black thalia (Vampire Hexmage) - at which point we're thawing the wrong card.
Looking at the rest of the list, you probably want 6 slots between ponder and standstill, at most. Non-modal maindeck removal is one of the worst things you can do in eternal formats; it has to be something you'd want to use on yourself (such as StP to gain 12) or able to kill opponent (such as bolt). There's not a lot of great black bi-modal removal...about the best is Lose Hope + Sultai Emissary, or something like Dimir Charm. As far as blue bi-modal removal goes, you're looking at things like the Reality Shift plan. Assume all removal [that you don't want to use on your own guys] to be dead draws vs each new opponent.
I'd say it's pretty absurd to wipe the board with Ponder/Brainstorm as your 4th spell for TITI and drop Standstill after that. Not to say that I would slot TITI to the same deck with Dreadnought, but I could definitely see it played with Standstill.
Your other points, I'm having difficulties to follow, as to me you are listing a bunch unplayable cards that have nothing to do with legacy. :)
But if someone wants to build a deck with TITI, I would start with Snapcasters and the basic Factory+Standstill package. The deck could actually look quite similar to DreadStill, just not as aggressive.
If Thing in the Ice is dropped turn 2, it's not flipping for another 2 turns. With Standstill you want to cast it right after a threat resolves; the longer you wait, the worse it becomes. The board wipe into standstill seems great, but a ton of creatures in legacy have ETB effects you don't necessarily want to re-up. I'm much more in favor of dropping flip-jace into standstill the next turn, his +1 ability is quite oppressive there.
The "unplayable cards that have nothing to do with legacy" have everything to do with non-UR lists. The point here is not the cards themselves, so much as the lessons you can take from those that play at the edge of the mechanics of the game - namely that maindeck removal (that only is there to remove enemy creatures...that might not even exist) is really bad idea. Spending those slots on bi-modal removal or controlling the stack, while relying on dreadnought to lock up the ground war, should be considered higher yield slot investments.
In Megadeus' list with TITI, all the non-factory creatures are terrible vs JTMS. Add to this the lack of ways to realistically win through x=1 chalice, and those 5 removal slots are much better off as a mixture of hex parasites and vampire hexmages. While those synergize with TITI, why aren't you just using Dark Depths? Alternatively, why aren't they just 5 counterspells?
The issue with playing dreadnought from the delver mindset, is that you're reading TITI and not seeing what it is really being used for. Sure, you can potentially board wipe into a standstill...but TITI is much more about finesse and holding an instant in hand. The board state you are manufacturing is one where TITI has 2 counters remaining, then this happens:
-cast dreadnought
-stifle (1 ice counter remains)
-they counter stifle
-you brainstorm (no ice counters remain) -> wipe the board returning dreadnought to hand, resolve brainstorm.
Why the fuck would I play my dreadnought when I'm about to transform and board wipe into a 7/8
Dreadnought decks are not about reading cards, we're in the business of understanding them. You're playing dreadnought in that scenario b/c you don't actually care if it resolves and is stifled into play - but your opponent does, and that's what matters. If they let you have the 12/12 trampler protected at all points from all (non-kgrip) removal, they won't win. If they cash in their counterspell on stifle, dreadnought comes right back to hand and you're bashing for 7 with TITI - that and you have an extra card in hand to shuffle away with brainstorm if you so choose. If they leave the dreadnought alone, maybe next turn we slam standstill (which doesn't remove ice counters)...maybe they try to kill dreadnought here with standstill on the stack, maybe we'll just fire off brainstorm here and have our 7/8 under standstill anyways.
We don't play simple magic, none of this "you cast card A so I cast card B to kill it."
Last edited by Fox; 03-09-2016 at 12:07 PM.
I'm taking the plunge into this deck. Dreadnought has fascinated ever since I started playing, and Stifle is one of my all-time favorite cards. However, cost is an issue, and even though I'm liquidated a bunch of Modern staples to get back into Legacy, it isn't nearly enough to get blue duals. So the plan is to go mono-blue. I'd like some feedback on this idea, and the tentative maindeck list I'm working on. If anyone else has experience with a Monoblue build, I'd be very open to advice.
Monoblue Dreadstill
Lands-22
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
16 Islands
Creatures - 8
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Delver of Secrets
Artifacts - 3
2 Vedalkin Shackles
Other -
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
2 Void Snare
Total - 60 cards
I figure Shackles might be a great card under a Standstill, since it offers the chance to build up the island count. I lose Lavamancer, but it does give me the ability to swipe threats, which potentially helps keep Abrupt Decay off my Dreadnoughts, or at least gives me another wincon if the Dreadnought gets Decay'd.
First things first Artifacts = 3, but only 2x shackles listed (is there a second artifact)?
Easiest way to splash competitive colors is Polluted Delta + Misty Rainforest -> Bayou. If possible go to 7-8 Fetch (4 delta, 3-4 rainforest) and bump Wasteland and Factory to 4x. Tentatively 20 lands:
-4x Mishra's Factory (it's important to note that you don't have to play factory or standstill, and 16-18 lands is more than enough)
-4x Wasteland
-4x Polluted Delta
-3x Misty Rainforest
-2x Island
-1x Swamp
-2x Bayou
Shackles coming out, Void Snare out, Counterspell out, Gitaxian Probe down to a 2x (or removed). Assuming Gitaxian down to a 2x we have: 2 (lands) + 3 (shackles) + 5 (from others category) = 10x slots. I'd consider:
-6x Creature Slots, things like: 4x DRS + 2x Flip-Jace, 3x DRS + 3x Confidant. Consider a 1x Tasigur or Angler
-1x Torpor Orb
-3x Meta-Game slots like countermagic, misdirection effects, phasing effects
-Don't run decay main.
-I wouldn't go below 7 ways to get a dreadnought into play when running the playset.
I don't know what your price point is but Bayou will be the most accessible good dual, and even stopping at 1 is probably fine (in that case island ->3 or misty ->4). Regardless of going outside of mono-U or not, you're going to want the 7-8 fetches named above - otherwise you can't really afford to play brainstorm over a card like Preordain. With Delver/Dreadnought, your next best creature in mono-U is probably waiting for Thing in the Ice (and I really doubt this card settles above $10). Continuing with mono-U, in the 6 slots for creatures, this would become 4x ponder + 2x flip-jace or 2x additional meta-game slots.
I do have sets of Strands and Deltas, and a pair of Mistys, so I'll tweak the land base to include some of them. I can't believe I overlooked that. Damn, I've got Legacy-rust.
I honestly hadn't thought about a BUG build before. I might be able to swing a Bayou. The only duals I currently have are sets of Scrubs and Plateaus, and I just can't see those kinds of build working, especially since I don't have Tarns. But I'd definitely proxy to test that idea, and see if it's something I'd like to pursue.
Budget-wise, it's basically Forces/Wastelands. I wouldn't be able to afford new fetches/duals until much later, so I'm pretty committed to mono-blue.
I had considered TITI, but it just works against Standstill so much. I might consider a pair, to try to take advantage of broken Standstills, but not a set.
Strand and Delta + Scrubland is workable at least. You're wheeling around black so in previous suggestion move all Misty to Strand and Bayou to Scrub x2. Now you're looking at Esper Dreadstill, and that's still fine. You've preserved black which is all you need for DRS (green mode doesn't really matter), and in white you get some insta-win sideboard cards (RiP, Thalia, Karakas, Stony Silence). As far as mainboard white cards you get Monastery Mentor and Hushwing Gryf.
There is certainly nothing wrong with moving from Dreadstill to something looking more like Esper Mentor or Dread n' Taxes (EoT tap vial on 1, hold priority, cast Hushwing Gryf, if they don't counter put down dreadnought and swing 14. this build does work better with karakas though). You'll have some strange hands every so often given the need to access basic island first, but as long as you max out around 4x DRS and 2-3 white cards it should be fine. Moving to 8 fetches that can all grab basic island and scrubland, and half that can find basic swamp seems manageable. DRS and/or Confidant are very good in dreadnought decks that don't use red, generally best to stretch colors for them.
Definitely don't let lack of blue duals stop you from experimenting, the deck is quite competitive and a ton of fun. Additionally playing non-UR versions will give you a much better mastery of mechanics and the nuances of priority. If you're going to be a dedicated dreadnought player, you'll find the lens through which we view magic to be very beneficial to determining what new cards you should invest in - and dreadnought can span a ton of archetypes.
Last edited by Fox; 03-19-2016 at 07:18 PM.
is hard play only U but i see your points!
you should play Repeal instead of Void snare and you shouldn't play delver since is so easy to beat, instead you should play Vendilion wich help you to protect you dreadnought!
one last thing...play Spell Snare because help you against too many problems, like: tarmo, tourach, balance, Young pyromancer and so on...
all the best, and good luck!
Ho, ho, ho, Merry Christmas Dreadnought lovers!
Decided to go old school in honour of my first weekly Legacy tournament in six months and last one before Christmas. Of course I played Dreadstill and had a ball.
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
Sideboard (15)
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Misdirection
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grim Lavamancer
R1 v Elves Win 2-1
On the draw to start, and I don't see a single counterspell before getting NO'd out.
G2 I bring in Needles, Lavamancer, EE's and start with a T1 Lavamancer, which is good enough to go all the way.
G3 back on the draw, I open Double Lavamancer so the Decay'd one is soon replaced and starts doing work to keep the Elves at bay. He's able to jam a fair few little critters, though, and starts pressuring my life total, forcing me to start doming him with Lavamancer while swinging with Delver. He swings me to one then activates DRS to kill me. Fortunately, I have a Stifle to scupper his plans and manage to swing and Lavamancer over for lethal the next turn. Phew!
R2 v Shardless BUG Win 2-1
On the draw again, and get BUG'd by double Shardless into double Decay on my Delver and Lavamancer. I Brainstorm into StifleNought a turn too late.
G2 on the play, I use my Lavamancer to keep his little creatures at bay and counter his Tarmogoyfs. Eventually I get StifleNought while his Liliana is at one counter and force him to block with Strix, DRSx2, and Shardlessx2. He goes to three, but I have a bolt to finish him.
G3 on the draw, he starts with double Visions, which play great into the double Standstill hand I have. I see a third Standstill and draw nine cards while he draws none thanks to Stifle, Stifle, and FoW. He graciously concedes during turns with an empty hand to my five cards and Mishra's Factory.
R3 v Dredge Loss 0-2
I have no Dredge hate and he has really good hands. G2 I could have dealt with double discard but he has TRIPLE discard spell in his opener and a dredger to get going. I can't recover.
R4 v UBr Tezz Win 2-0
My unfortunate opponent mulligans to five both games, which isn't good against a Stifle deck. I hit all his fetchlands and Delver kills him.
Dreadstill is still bloody fun! But I still think my changes are suboptimal and my good friend Yan's list and sideboard plan is the best. MVP was Grim Lavamancer, that thing did so much work for me. I am still slowly pimping this deck, but after picking it up again I think I want to get foiling a little quicker. Only all the expensive stuff to go :(
I'm not sure I follow how you're Stifling his Visions but he's triggering your Standstill. Can you elaborate a little better? I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding how the triggers may stack.
If it was 3 Vision I'd understand. This had to be spread out over multiple turns, since you can't play a Standstill under Standstill.
Well it's the using Stifle to prevent the opponent drawing while drawing your 3 off Standstill's trigger, unless I'm reading that wrong.
The issue is that if you allow the trigger to resolve, so that the Visions triggers the Standstill, you are past the point that you can Stifle it.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Hence why I am confused. If you're Stifling the Visions suspend trigger then you're just triggering your own Standstill.
Sorry, my reporting sucked. Thanks go out to lots of whisky for that one. I FoW'd the one I had a Standstill down for and Stifled the ones I didn't. So it was FoW (when Standstill was down), Stifle (when Standstill wasn't down), Stifle (again when Standstill wasn't down), then play some more Standstills.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote