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Thread: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

  1. #4601

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    They could have easily banned veil instead of labe if hymn (instead of wasteland) was a sacred cow.

    If hymn was so good and only held back by veil/uro, Grixis and pox would have great elves/d&t/ur delver matchups... but they donít.

  2. #4602
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    If hymn was so good and only held back by veil/uro, Grixis and pox would have great elves/d&t/ur delver matchups... but they donít.
    This is "company standard" Fox though, as we've seen thoughout the years. The idea is that Hymn and Couterbalance are horribly broken, but somehow there is always something that mitigates and results in Hymn/Counterbalance not actually dominating anything really. It's almost as if Hymn/Counterbalance really aren't all that broken, just fairly good cards that often see play, sometimes are really good, but rarely, if ever, are actually broken. But maybe it just depends on what ideology you are going to subscribe yourself to.

    The long and short is most probably the following: Fox really doesn't like Hymn and Counterbalance.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  3. #4603

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Does anyone have an updated list that theyíre having success with?

    I am having pretty great results with the below list but I feel like its doing a bit better with Dark Confidant in the Standstill slot...

    Vaka Nought 2.0

    16 Lands
    4 Wasteland
    0 Volrathís Stronghold

    4 Brainstorm
    3-4 Ponder
    3-4 FoW
    3-4 Daze
    3-4 Thoughtseize
    0-2 Dark Ritual

    4 Stifle
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Kroxa
    2-3 Torpor Orb
    2-3 Lazav, the Multifarious
    0-2 Scroll of Fate

    3-4 Standstill or Dark Confidant or Delver of Secrets (Delver has worked better for me in this slot)

    The key to winning with the above list is to know when to press the gas and when to press the brake. Against combo and control decks, youíre usually better off going slower keeping your mana open your early turns to disrupt your opponents mana development and game plan. Turn 1 Thoughtseize to map out the rest of the game is key. But against fast aggro and burn, speed is the key. Your threats will clock hard and will go the distance, you just have to mulligan aggressively and drop them down asap.

    The sideboard is in flux but game one always seems to go well. The deck plays so much disruption and pairs it with an incredibly fast clock. Lazav is an MVP.

    Every card in the deck is very powerful on its own and synergies perfectly with the rest of the deck. Theres so many fantastic cards that I wish this deck had room for...
    Dark Ritual
    Hymn to Tourach
    Divert
    Lightning Bolt
    Fatal Push
    Misdirection
    Spell Pierce
    Pyroblast
    Preordain
    Reanimate
    Hunted Horror
    Scroll of Fate
    Jace Vyrnís Prodigy

    All are reasonable albeit spicy options.

    Once available, some of the Wastelands will be swapped out with Urzaís Saga.
    Last edited by Clark Kant; 05-16-2021 at 01:27 AM.

  4. #4604
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Confidant is played with Petal, and we only play TurboBob + Dreadnought in combo renaissances (Dig Through Time, Breach). Your list has no turn 1 plays [DRS is banned, and Delver isn't there] and you're playing Daze vs an opponent who has time to make land drops and pay the Daze tax on their removal spell. Kroxa's trigger is not only completely invalidated by Uro, but Uro has escape cost 4 (the card it draws ends up in the GY), so you're playing from behind vs the rest of the format. While playing from behind vs Uro, you're also getting wrecked by Wasteland. As with an Uro build, you're asking to get dismantled by yard hate/Surgical.

    As a general rule Seize competes with Daze for slots, particularly after the printing of FoN. There are already 10 slots of countermagic accounted for by 6 Force effects and 4 flex slots; so at most you're playing 2 more pieces [this will be Drown in the Loch] for a total of 12 slots. Drown plays nicer with Thoughtseize openers than Daze, but no matter what direction you choose [Daze or Seize], we note that Confidant is getting more and more painful to trigger - so you don't really get the luxury of making 4 lands drops for Kroxa; you have to be close to closing out the game at that point. This isn't the part of the game where you want to try and cash in your value loop, particularly against the card Lightning Bolt.

    Here again we run into the problem of the 3rd color in Dreadnought not helping at all - it just locks you into predictably bad situations/play patterns. This problem is compounded by the card Ponder, which can only ever do [insert play pattern] harder. You have to back off this idea of dead'ing your opponent harder with 12/12s, it's not how Dreadnought wins. When it comes to UB Dreadnought [without heavy combo presence] you just play UB Landstill and you add 4 white cards [2x Teferi 3cmc, 1x Sevinnes, 1x Kaya 3cmc], and win more games.

  5. #4605

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    You are correct. Delver is a must play in this list. I swapped the Dark Confidants with Delvers and played 2 test matches and the Delvers were clutch both times at holding back opposing threats or drawing removal or clocking them quickly where as Confidant would have just lost me a ton of life and taken up twice as much mana to achieve the same result.

    The deck plays a very low curve so it can shave lands.

    Thoughtseize and daze actually supplement each other incredibly well in my experience.

    Turn 1 fetch for Underground Sea, Thoughtseize and then Daze their next play is fantastic and actually works here since our curve is so much lower than the Uro/Scroll of Fate/Lazav build which is far more mana intensive.

  6. #4606
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Here again we run into the problem of the 3rd color in Dreadnought not helping at all - it just locks you into predictably bad situations/play patterns. This problem is compounded by the card Ponder, which can only ever do [insert play pattern] harder. You have to back off this idea of dead'ing your opponent harder with 12/12s, it's not how Dreadnought wins. When it comes to UB Dreadnought [without heavy combo presence] you just play UB Landstill and you add 4 white cards [2x Teferi 3cmc, 1x Sevinnes, 1x Kaya 3cmc], and win more games.
    Is there a viable tempo UB Dreadnought or is that just better achieved by Ur?

  7. #4607
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Is there a viable tempo UB Dreadnought or is that just better achieved by Ur?
    I think you're probably better off playing Shadow if you want a tempo UB list; it doesn't need any extra cards like Stifle to make a big dude, just high velocity and synergy with the mana-base.
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Is there a viable tempo UB Dreadnought or is that just better achieved by Ur?
    UBw Landstill is better; to the point that using Karn to wish out a Scroll and Dreadnought [just to call the deck Dreadstill] would be an improvement over UB Dreadstill.

    The only other conventional CA engine is Confidant, but again this requires heavy combo and Lotus Petals. Mashing up with Reanimator [Grisel being the CA engine], also works...however it uses Petal as well, so again it requires a warped meta.

  9. #4609

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    So are you saying dreadstill is a dead deck and there is no point to trying to make it work any further?

    I do not believe that to be the case.

    I'm having great results with this list...

    4 Wasteland
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Steam Vents
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Volcanic Island
    1 Badlands
    1 Snow-covered Island
    1 Snow-covered Swamp

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    4 Daze
    3 Thoughtseize
    3 Ponder
    1 Spell Pierce

    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Kroxa

    2 Standstill/Dark Confidant
    2 Standstill/Bonecrusher Giant

    4 Stifle
    3 Lazav, the Multifarious
    2 Torpor Orb
    1 Scroll of Fate

    Sideboard (work in progress)
    4 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Blue Elemental Blast
    1 Spell Snare
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Misdirection/Divert
    2 Plague Engineer
    4 Leyline of the Void

    Sure it's not a traditional list but it's super low curve and has a plan of attack vs every matchup. It's extremely similar to UR Delver but has a much faster clock that is well protected by Thoughtseize, Daze and FoW and can recoup even if the Dreadnought gets Decayed, thanks to Lazav.

  10. #4610
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I am saying UB Dreadstill is not competitive as compared to UB-based Landstill currently; it's just a way to win less games. The circumstances are not right for StifleNought, UB or otherwise.

    When the goal is to compete using asymmetry [i.e. game actions & Standstill]:
    If making UB -> play UBx Landstill
    If making UR -> play UR Dreadstill
    If making UW -> play UW Dreadstill
    If making UW or UWr -> play UW/r Landstill/Standstill only if you're willing to accept the glaring flaw [lack of playable lifegain]

    ^While these rules can change with new cards, these shifts require multiple new pieces to both be printed and work together. The speed of change is generally measured in years.

  11. #4611
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    On your list you have a lot of cards that can easily fail in series. Your only threat that can stay out of the GY is Dreadnought. With very few kill spells and some yard hate, your opponent can deal with some 12/12s and then reduce you to Kroxa and Lazav (which easily dies to a single Surgical). So when Dreadnought can't get there [or worse, if it is also Surgical'd], Kroxa/Lazav are easy to topple together, and then we're looking at some Torpor Orbs that aren't really doing anything. It's really easy to topple these cards like dominos, using cards that dependably show up in legacy 75s. You're constructing into known interaction.

    ^So when you run into this wall, Ponder is not going to find you a way out - you don't have the tools to draw into. At this point you're all-in on a 1x Scroll of Fate as your only remaining wincon. This is the classic problem with Ponder: when the plan isn't working, doing the plan harder won't work either.

    4x Fetch is not adequate, you need 7-8. Maybe Steam Vents is supposed to be Tarn? When playing cards like Uro/Kroxa, you really can't cut into this pool. Brainstorm is also a poor idea with only 4x Fetch.

    Your list can't really count to 20, so direct damage like Bolt or Stomp Giant actively impedes your path to victory. Your list counts to 2, as in it needs two attacks.

    Your list lacks ways to ensure Standstill can reliably be cast. You also lack game actions that force opponents to break Standstill. The card you would need is Shark Typhoon (I'm looking real hard at the card Ponder). Even if you swapped into Typhoon, you have so many slots doing the Stifle/Torpor thing, that there really isn't any kill spell that can help both the Standstill half and the Torpor half. In the background, the mana is also unreliable [too soft to Wasteland].

    Confidant doesn't have enough distractions to survive, and obviously can't be played with Standstill b/c Shark'nado is 6cmc.

    In the board Spell Snare is a waste of a slot. BEB is not good; there is no red card that you should have to kill (Wrenn and DHA are banned). Leyline is pointless; a properly built Dreadnought deck does not need to run to cards like this - we can just race their combo.

    So if we take your list and say we want Standstill + Shark'nado, then we need Bolt. If we add Bolt we need to be able to count to 20. Derping with Torpor/big dudes does not count to 20. You need 1-drop threats like Grim Lavamancer, Delver, or even a couple of Ascendant Spirit (these also get into play before a Standstill). Fix up the mana by dropping the black -> you're now UR Dreadstill.

  12. #4612
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Is there a viable tempo UB Dreadnought or is that just better achieved by Ur?
    Hey folks,

    I consistently played UB Tempo Stiflenought between DRS ban and Oko takeover. It was totally viable even though I was a relative Legacy newbie. You just have to watch the Swords % in your meta. The deck has very similar strengths and weaknesses as Shadow that way: combo killer, dog to Tundra. One of the major difference being a much stronger UR Delver MU, since you won't get burned out as easily. This new post-Oko/Arcanist meta seems to resemble that period in many ways, and I'm looking forward to sleeving up the good old 12/12s in Legacy again soon (especially as UR is becoming the premier Delver deck again and many lists seem to be cutting MD Borrowers for some reason)

    Sidenote: Fox brings a lot of deep and unconventional knowledge to this forum, and I have profited a lot from studying the back pages of "his" Source thread here, but he also operates under a couple of rigid assumptions that are impenetrable to differing philosophies, playstyles, experiences and shifting contexts. One of them holds that Ponder becomes a bad card as soon as you register a Dreadnought (the flipside of this notion is the automatic pairing of DN with Standstill). I like to think there's more than one legitimate way of playing PhDs (just as Goyf fits both Canadian Thresh and BUG midrange), and for my liking Standstill is too much of a hit-or-miss card and increases the # of potential dead topdecks in a deck that by necessity already runs 4 Stifles and 4 DNs. And Ponder is obviously fantastic here.

    Here's my current iteration of UB:

    4 Delver
    4 Dreadnought
    2 Bob
    1 Whale
    2 Brazen Boi
    2 Scroll

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Daze
    4 Force
    4 Stifle

    3 Thoughtseize
    2 Push
    1 Drown / Pierce / Divert

    4 Wasteland
    2 Vista
    4 Delta
    3 blue fetch
    3 Island
    1 Swamp
    2 U Sea


    SB:
    1 Torpor Orb
    2 Back to Basics
    3 TNN
    1 Force of Negation
    1 Dismember
    1 Misdirection
    1 Flusterstorm
    2 Plague Engineer
    2 Cage
    1 Surgical


    PS: Where I agree with Fox is: 3 colors probably not worth it; Scroll is the best permanent enabler out there; Lazav is barely playable (was in and out of my list as a 1-of).

  13. #4613

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Fox, you are correct that the Steam Vents is meant to be Scalding Tarn. I didnt have any Tarn so I utilize Flooded Strand on mtgo, but my list is otherwise identical. It was typo that I typed in Steam Vents instead of Scalding Tarn. Red is a very light splash, blue and black mana are more important for the deck.

    I have honestly never run into the issue that youíre worried about. Yes on occasion my opponent Surgicals my Dreadnought and I am not able to counter the Surgical, but thats a very niche scenario and Kroxa and Bonecrusher are still plenty capable of getting there. They both clock much harder and faster than Delver does. The deck is very fast and aggressive, the game is won or lost long before you have to worry that all your threats get removed.

    All 10 cards that combo with the Kroxa and Dreadnought are fantastic in their own way, and I am having difficulty settling on how many of each card I want to play (4 Stifle is set in stone but the distribution of the other 6 slots is still up in the air).

    1-2 Scroll of Fate - Slow but great midgame at turning extra lands and Dazes into 2/2s.

    1-3 Torpor Orb - Beats a ton of decks on its own, requires the least mana to combo, plop it down once and its useful all game.

    2-3 Lazav - Not only enables the combo but reanimates any Dreadnoughts or Kroxas that your opponent managed to kill earlier. Its essentially a one card combo midgame as you usually already have a Dreadnoght or Kroxa in your yard by then. Its even solid when used to copy a Dark Confidant or Bonecrusher Giant in your yard. Even just as a 1/3 it has value at stopping Goblin Lackeys, Confidants, Young Pyromancers, Snapcasters, Thalias and similar threats from being able to attack you.

    4 Stifle - Super versatile, amazing against storm, I use them as 1cc sinkhole on turn one/two whenever I get the opportunity since the deck has 9 other cards that enable the combo and plenty of cantrips to find them.

  14. #4614
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Scroll of Fate and Stifle are already known quantities in Dreadstill, the best enablers.

    Lazav: what does it do the rest of the time, when you don't have a fatty in the GY or they exiled your fatty with GY hate (which will always come in vs an Escape Uro or Kroxa deck)? Lazav is a 1/3 a lot of the time. Sure it can enable Dreadnought or Kroxa in the perfect scenario. The question is would any other enabler (e.g. Vision Charm, more Scroll of Fate, Illusionary Mask, Karn, the Great Creator) also be able to do the same thing? The big difference with the other enablers is that Scroll and Karn don't suck when you don't have the other combo piece ready, while Lazav and some other enablers do.

    Lazav + activate = 2UB + 1 card to make a Kroxa (without the ETB trigger). Is that better than paying RRBB and 0 cards to make a Kroxa with the ETB trigger? Lazav does let you both and get 2 Kroxas, but that seems win-more.

    With Lazav + Uro it's even worse.
    Lazav + activate = 3UB + 1 card (Lazav) to copy the Uro in your graveyard without the ETB trigger (missed draw and lifegain).
    Escaping Uro is just UUGG and you get the ETB trigger
    Escaping is better: you're ahead +2 cards +3 life +1 mana
    Lazav does let you do both and have 2 Uros for 9 mana (-1 ETB trigger) without having to escape as many cards, but again is that win-more?

    If they have StP or Surgical/Faerie/Leyline you're never getting Uro or Kroxa to the graveyard for Lazav to use. If they have Karakas, it stops the escaped ones and Lazav too. If they just have regular removal, just escaping Uro is enough to win the game without needing the Lazav copy.

    What scenarios does it help you win that aren't win-more? How bad is it compared to another Scroll of Fate or Karn when you don't have a fatty in the GY?

  15. #4615
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    My personal opinion is that Lazav is a commander card for fun combos, not a legacy playable threat. Scroll of Fate is just a much better card, period.

    If anyone is interested, I'm trying to develop a mono-blue list that cuts Delver. Flipping Delver in Dreadstill has always been a challenge, to the point where it isn't a reliable early-pressure threat. I would rather focus on controlling turns 1-2 and slamming a Standstill. Daze/Wasteland are counterproductive to hitting 2 mana on turn 2, as we all know already, so I'm trying to find a way to mitigate that. One way is Lotus Petal, another is to cut Daze. I'm not exactly sure how to tackle it, but this is my first attempt.

    4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
    2x Brazen Borrower
    4x Scroll of Fate

    3x Lotus Petal
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Stifle
    4x Force of Will
    4x Daze
    3x Dismember
    4x Standstill
    2x Spell Snare

    3x Scalding Tarn
    3x Misty Rainforest
    2x Flooded Strand
    6x Island
    4x Wasteland
    3x Mishra's Factory
    1x Urza's Saga (when it becomes available)

    Sideboard
    2x Force of Negation
    2x Spell Pierce
    2x Blue Elemental Blast
    2x Ratchet Bomb
    2x Sower of Temptation
    1x Torpor Orb
    2x Grafdigger's Cage
    2x Surgical Extraction
    Brainstorm Realist

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  16. #4616

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobitzki View Post
    I consistently played UB Tempo Stiflenought between DRS ban and Oko takeover. It was totally viable even though I was a relative Legacy newbie. You just have to watch the Swords % in your meta. The deck has very similar strengths and weaknesses as Shadow that way: combo killer, dog to Tundra. One of the major difference being a much stronger UR Delver MU, since you won't get burned out as easily. This new post-Oko/Arcanist meta seems to resemble that period in many ways, and I'm looking forward to sleeving up the good old 12/12s in Legacy again soon (especially as UR is becoming the premier Delver deck again and many lists seem to be cutting MD Borrowers for some reason)

    Sidenote: Fox brings a lot of deep and unconventional knowledge to this forum, and I have profited a lot from studying the back pages of "his" Source thread here, but he also operates under a couple of rigid assumptions that are impenetrable to differing philosophies, playstyles, experiences and shifting contexts. One of them holds that Ponder becomes a bad card as soon as you register a Dreadnought (the flipside of this notion is the automatic pairing of DN with Standstill). I like to think there's more than one legitimate way of playing PhDs (just as Goyf fits both Canadian Thresh and BUG midrange), and for my liking Standstill is too much of a hit-or-miss card and increases the # of potential dead topdecks in a deck that by necessity already runs 4 Stifles and 4 DNs. And Ponder is obviously fantastic here.
    This is a good post I think

    The part in bold is something that I have always been really curious about

    Like if Dreadnought was a good card by itself as a big threat in a deck with stifle then why would it not be successful in a more generic kind of delver/tempo deck without standstill?
    If standstill was a good card by itself in a kind of stifle/tempo deck (with e.g. Factory, presumably, but not necessarily), why do we not see people having success with this kind of strategy without dreadnought?
    What is the perfect confluence of factors that makes these cards necessarily pair with each other, in 2021?

    At this point the most realistic explanation is that those cards were simply the best options available at the time in terms of cheap threats and cheap card draw (this is like pre-delver, mind, years and years and years ago) and a post-hoc rationalization was made to justify that the deck was built with some kind of special synergy.

    Like, there is obviously some kind of sensible idea that "If my big threat effectively makes me discard a card when it ETB then I want to have some kind of extra card advantage source in the deck" but in so many years of printings is Standstill really the best option? Why not try expressive iteration or etc etc

    But ultimately I think Dreadnought is just not a playable card (it's basically blue pox in the sense that people get a nostalgia buzz out of doing something old/cool that mostly sucks)
    Your assessment of the deck as "worse shadow" is basically in line with my assessment, I don't even think the Shadow matchup vs UR is bad

    but he also operates under a couple of rigid assumptions that are impenetrable to differing philosophies, playstyles, experiences and shifting contexts.
    To me what it looks like is his analysis is founded on a densely interlocked web of rigid heuristics

    Some of them are correct, and admittedly not trivial either, but a lot of them seem to be misguided and/or wrong, and when every new idea has to be filtered through this web of half-nonsense it's mostly a crapshoot whether his take on things is going to actually be useful or not. (Also the posts are near-inscrutable which doesn't help either)

  17. #4617
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    So your list has some problems @Mr.Safety. Cards like Dismember and other black removal have this issue with not advancing Dreadnought's plans. At 2cmc you get some options (Easy Prey and Drown in the Loch), but these have some early game tension with Standstill, as well as being susceptible to Daze and poor vs a go-wide deck like Elves.

    I've never seen a convincing argument from the mono-U camp as to why what they are doing is better than 4x Tarn, 4x Vista, 1x Mountain + 4x Bolt and 3x SB Blasts. Even if you don't own a dual, this has to be a straight-up improvement; particularly if you're adding Standstill.

    In terms of Standstill in your list, you're missing 3x Shark'nado. We can change the numbers a little, down to 2x Shark'nado, but it has to be there.

    I'd suggest going with UR Dreadstill, especially b/c the mana is getting a huge boost:
    4x Tarn
    4x Vista
    5x Island
    1x Volc
    2x Mountain
    3x Wasteland
    2x Saga

    Finally we have a 2x manland that can replace Factory, so we're going to be doing that. In terms of the second Mountain [previously a Factory], it could also be a dual, a Fling-land, or copy #1 of 2 of Spikefield Hazard.

    I'm terms of the fixed slots:
    4x BS
    4x FoW
    4x Bolt
    4x Standstill
    4x Stifle
    3x Nought
    3x Grim Lavamancer
    3x Scroll of Fate
    2-3x Shark'nado
    2x TNN

    There's a decision fork at this point where we say 4x Daze or non-Daze build. Either path may use Delver, but in general we want to replace this card entirely b/c it's harder to flip, and it hurts itself [i.e. Delver reveal Delver = no transform]. If Daze build, Delver is getting 3x slots at most. In non-Daze the Delver slots are going down to 2x, so the card in those slots has to have a better late game; the Ascendant Spirit has performed pretty well here (just be sure lands are swapped to snow).

    The biggest difference between the two directions is whether or not 2x FoN are in the list. I prefer the non-Daze build since Oko has been banned, as FoN is a far better card vs Loam, Sol lands, Vial, and combo.

    When going non-Daze, non-Delver the Shark'nado goes to 3x. I also prefer 2x Karn in the non-Daze build, which manipulates the 3rd copy of Scroll and Nought to the board.

    Brazen Borrower should pretty much always be swapped to Mystic Reflection at this point. It's just a better card offensively and defensively. This is even more true with Urza's Saga being printed [pull out a Dreadnought as the best non-legend dude on board or even pull out Nought and turn a 0/0 cycle Shark into a Dreadnought token that eats the one we just tutored].

  18. #4618
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    The part in bold is something that I have always been really curious about

    Like if Dreadnought was a good card by itself as a big threat in a deck with stifle then why would it not be successful in a more generic kind of delver/tempo deck without standstill?
    If standstill was a good card by itself in a kind of stifle/tempo deck (with e.g. Factory, presumably, but not necessarily), why do we not see people having success with this kind of strategy without dreadnought?
    What is the perfect confluence of factors that makes these cards necessarily pair with each other, in 2021?

    At this point the most realistic explanation is that those cards were simply the best options available at the time in terms of cheap threats and cheap card draw (this is like pre-delver, mind, years and years and years ago) and a post-hoc rationalization was made to justify that the deck was built with some kind of special synergy.

    Like, there is obviously some kind of sensible idea that "If my big threat effectively makes me discard a card when it ETB then I want to have some kind of extra card advantage source in the deck" but in so many years of printings is Standstill really the best option? Why not try expressive iteration or etc etc
    I have very little experience playing this archetype, playing UWx Landstill more back in the day, but my understanding of this from 10ish years ago was that Dreadnought + Standstill fit together well. One part is that you need card draw to compensate for the card disadvantage spending 2 cards to trade with Plow. But playing aggressive Standstill also demands curving out a cheap threat into early Standstill. Dreadnought is card disadvantage but extreme mana efficiency. What faster clock could you produce while still landing an early Standstill? Legacy still has yet to produce anything bigger for 2 mana (not including Reanimate strategies). Curving early threat into Standstill leads to wins. It forces the opponent to break Standstill immediately or lose. This was a strategic shift from Landstill, which would drop an early Standstill but could still lose from lack of pressure, letting the opponent topdeck for 8 turns until they sculpt a hand good enough to win after breaking Standstill. The way UW Landstill lost was by playing T2 Standstill with no threat but Mishra's Factory, getting Factory wasted, then topdecking 15 turns desperately looking for Decree of Justice so you aren't forced to break your own Standstill (-4 cards).

    Granted Landstill has shored up that weakness with newer cards: T3feri makes it harder for the opponent to crack Standstill and win, because you still control the stack, while Sharknado is a much better cycling threat.

  19. #4619

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I have very little experience playing this archetype, playing UWx Landstill more back in the day, but my understanding of this from 10ish years ago was that Dreadnought + Standstill fit together well. One part is that you need card draw to compensate for the card disadvantage spending 2 cards to trade with Plow. But playing aggressive Standstill also demands curving out a cheap threat into early Standstill. Dreadnought is card disadvantage but extreme mana efficiency. What faster clock could you produce while still landing an early Standstill? Legacy still has yet to produce anything bigger for 2 mana (not including Reanimate strategies). Curving early threat into Standstill leads to wins. It forces the opponent to break Standstill immediately or lose. This was a strategic shift from Landstill, which would drop an early Standstill but could still lose from lack of pressure, letting the opponent topdeck for 8 turns until they sculpt a hand good enough to win after breaking Standstill. The way UW Landstill lost was by playing T2 Standstill with no threat but Mishra's Factory, getting Factory wasted, then topdecking 15 turns desperately looking for Decree of Justice so you aren't forced to break your own Standstill (-4 cards).

    Granted Landstill has shored up that weakness with newer cards: T3feri makes it harder for the opponent to crack Standstill and win, because you still control the stack, while Sharknado is a much better cycling threat.
    This makes sense but surely there are better 1drop threats now right
    You can't even play early dreadnought + stifle that reliably compared to just casting Delver of Secrets or whatever other standalone card and you cant do the curve of turn1 threat turn2 standstill with nought either.
    I ~suppose~ you could make the argument that dreadnought is the only creature that's large and cheap enough to be meaningfully threatening both on turn 2 and also when your opponent cracks your standstill on an empty-ish board on like turn 6 but I don't find that entirely convincing

  20. #4620
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    So your list has some problems @Mr.Safety. Cards like Dismember and other black removal have this issue with not advancing Dreadnought's plans. At 2cmc you get some options (Easy Prey and Drown in the Loch), but these have some early game tension with Standstill, as well as being susceptible to Daze and poor vs a go-wide deck like Elves.

    I've never seen a convincing argument from the mono-U camp as to why what they are doing is better than 4x Tarn, 4x Vista, 1x Mountain + 4x Bolt and 3x SB Blasts. Even if you don't own a dual, this has to be a straight-up improvement; particularly if you're adding Standstill.

    In terms of Standstill in your list, you're missing 3x Shark'nado. We can change the numbers a little, down to 2x Shark'nado, but it has to be there.

    I'd suggest going with UR Dreadstill, especially b/c the mana is getting a huge boost:
    4x Tarn
    4x Vista
    5x Island
    1x Volc
    2x Mountain
    3x Wasteland
    2x Saga

    Finally we have a 2x manland that can replace Factory, so we're going to be doing that. In terms of the second Mountain [previously a Factory], it could also be a dual, a Fling-land, or copy #1 of 2 of Spikefield Hazard.

    I'm terms of the fixed slots:
    4x BS
    4x FoW
    4x Bolt
    4x Standstill
    4x Stifle
    3x Nought
    3x Grim Lavamancer
    3x Scroll of Fate
    2-3x Shark'nado
    2x TNN

    There's a decision fork at this point where we say 4x Daze or non-Daze build. Either path may use Delver, but in general we want to replace this card entirely b/c it's harder to flip, and it hurts itself [i.e. Delver reveal Delver = no transform]. If Daze build, Delver is getting 3x slots at most. In non-Daze the Delver slots are going down to 2x, so the card in those slots has to have a better late game; the Ascendant Spirit has performed pretty well here (just be sure lands are swapped to snow).

    The biggest difference between the two directions is whether or not 2x FoN are in the list. I prefer the non-Daze build since Oko has been banned, as FoN is a far better card vs Loam, Sol lands, Vial, and combo.

    When going non-Daze, non-Delver the Shark'nado goes to 3x. I also prefer 2x Karn in the non-Daze build, which manipulates the 3rd copy of Scroll and Nought to the board.

    Brazen Borrower should pretty much always be swapped to Mystic Reflection at this point. It's just a better card offensively and defensively. This is even more true with Urza's Saga being printed [pull out a Dreadnought as the best non-legend dude on board or even pull out Nought and turn a 0/0 cycle Shark into a Dreadnought token that eats the one we just tutored].
    Mystic Reflection has some problems of its own, especially that it only works alongside Dreadnought to be truly valuable. I think it's a trap card that gives a high ceiling but a low enough floor that it shouldn't be in the deck. I'd rather jam Spell Pierce/Divert, or honestly, just play Brazen Borrowers. Without Delver the deck needs some amount of secondary threats. Borrower provides card advantage + tempo and fills the threat slots the deck needs. The next possible threat would be TNN, which I'm not discounting. Brazen Borrower will likely never leave my Dreadstill list, regardless of color configurations, as a catch-all answer + threat. The primary reasons it is good are 1) it puts threats back to hand where countermagic can deal with them, especially important without hard removal options like Swords to Plowshares, and 2) it answers Marit Lage in the cleanest possible way for any iteration of Dreadstill.

    Dismember dodges Chalice of the Void and is a hard removal for 1 mana, at the obvious coast of 4 life. It hits all of the fair threats being played in the format currently. I don't understand the tension with Standstill; in order for Standstill to be good we have to clear the board and resolve it, we can't play Standstill while behind. Cracking Standstill into free countermagic or cheap removal is the name of the game, no? As far as not advancing Dreadstill's plans...this I don't understand. I've heard the arguments a hundred times about 'you need bolt to count to 20'. Well if this is the case, there can really be no discussion about anything besides UR Dreadstill.

    My plan is to:
    1) Disrupt early, land Standstill with neutral board or ahead on board
    2) Disrupt early, get a Dreadnought onto the board, protect it for 2 hits
    3) Play to a mid-game where I can leverage Scroll of Fate to turn extra cards into manifest tokens

    Whether I play a Lightning Bolt to deal with the first threat and then jam Standstill or a Dismember to deal with the first threat, then jam Standstill, makes little difference in my opinion. The lifeloss is definitely a consideration in a burn-heavy metagame, but beyond that the hard removal is necessary without Swords to Plowshares or Fatal Push. My experience with Standstill is you have to deal with the first threat on board as a necessity, then play out Standstill. In my limited experience the worst card to see for a Standstill deck is a resolved Aether Vial.

    Elves I haven't played against with Dreadstill yet...I imagine the uphill battled against Allosaurus Shepherd is significant. At this point, any sort of removal is absolutely crucial. In this sense Dismember has the nice text, for supporting Dreadstill's plans, of 'don't die.' Bouncing a Shepherd so I can counter Natural Order seems pretty decent to me as well, another point in favor of Borrower.

    What's the tradeoff for mono-blue? Budgetary reasons and resistance to Wasteland and Blood Moon. If I had Volcanic Islands I'm pretty sure the play is just go deep into UR Delver, which overall is just a more reliable deck. At the end of the day, we're talking about a tier 2.5-3 deck regardless of which setup we are playing. If I want to play Dreadnought, it's 90%+ a blue deck, so why mess around with options that give me a slight edge when I know the main parts of the deck are going to be either good or bad regardless of the splash color? Does a red splash *truly* take the deck from 2.5 to 2.0+ with a better percentage against the metagame? I'm skeptical.

    To sum up, kombatkiwi does it nicely:

    But ultimately I think Dreadnought is just not a playable card (it's basically blue pox in the sense that people get a nostalgia buzz out of doing something old/cool that mostly sucks)
    I'm definitely in the camp of 'this is my blue pox deck that I play because I think it's fun'.
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