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Thread: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

  1. #4681
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Ark4n asked for my Dreadstill list and we talked about the issues with Ragavan on turn 1 -> Standstill on turn 2 -> your opponent just taps Karakas and you're screwed. This is why I use DRC in UR Dreadstill; that, and the 1-card delirium combo of Saga find Nought. The issue with Ragavan is that if it isn't able to attack, you suddenly need to fix the problem that makes it so you can't attack. Blue + Red is a really poor set of colors when it comes to being able to fix "Ragavan can't attack" problems; Daze doesn't always work and neither does Bolt. If you can't attack, you're probably also behind on board or out-stat'd, such that if you did cast Standstill, Ragavan can't necessarily win a no-blocking race (and he can't use his trigger to cast spells without donating oppo 3 cards).

    Watch Ark4n's first league with the direction he went and it gets pretty ugly pretty quick, where his conventional cards often come into direct conflict with the Dreadstill stuff. Afterwards he cleans it up and goes down to singleton Nought & Standstill and puts Daze back up to 4 copies to maximize Ragavan cheese. The 1x Nought acting as more copies w/ Saga at least gives a reason to run Stifle. When you're this dedicated to cheese'ing Ragavan, you can get away with 2 questionable includes. The Saga stuff is pretty easy to answer with deck construction and SB choices, but the average legacy player isn't willing to abandon small-minded 1-for-1 magic, and that's who Saga beats.

    Ragavan is ideal for a white splash as you're technically able to cast Prismatic Ending for up to 5 colors, and you have nearly-DRS levels of mana protection on an otherwise yolo-ish manabase of all duals, all weak to choke. Ending is a far better spell at turning Ragavan attacks back on, and you also get to play Karakas profitably. This mana advantage also makes it pretty effortless to derp out Expressive Iteration users who are going to struggle tremendously to untap with 2 mana producing lands, and also beat Daze....vs an opponent getting free Lotus Petals. So not really a Dreadstill deck so much as the ability to jank-out a bit off the back of a creature that will likely get banned. The presence of 4x Saga is a little more questionable than Nought and Standstill as it is a pretty easy concept to attack and shut down...and if you shut down Saga they have to draw through worse topdeck trinkets they couldn't tutor.

  2. #4682
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Interesting. That explains the deck choices.

    Skimming through some of his leagues, it looked like Standstill was the worst card in the deck. The deck can't just drop turn 2 Standstill on an empty board and hope to reliably win the value race or find a threat in time (only Saga works). One control opponent correctly figured out they could beat Standstill by just letting both players draw to 7, firing off EOT Brainstorm to crack Standstill, then letting Ark4n discard to hand size (1U: Draw 3, discard 3) for net card disadvantage while the opponent untaps with 9-10 cards to work with (if Brainstorm resolved). Cutting down to 1 Standstill makes sense. Would 3eferi just be better in that slot in his build?

    I assume for UR Dreadstill you guys have multiple threats like Sharknado and Mishra's Factory as well as Urza that are live under a Standstill?

    Ark4n apparently cut Dreadnought from the more recent build, though I think as a 1-of it was nice to have an out for Saga to produce a fast clock instead of just slow grind (Retrofitter, Cursed Scroll, 2/2 constructs that are often not even made). Without Nought the deck has a serious clock problem as all the threats can run into 2/2s.

    One thing the deck does really well is win at Ragavan. It's probably the best Ragavan deck in that event and won off that.

    Yeah, shutting down Saga does shut down a lot of the gas in the deck, but the meta seems focused on shutting down artifacts (Null Rod?) instead of shutting down Saga directly. Meanwhile I've watched streams of Saga decks stomp through a Null Rod and pretty much ignore the minor disruption to Mox mana and equips.

  3. #4683
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    In UR Dreadstill the combo is counting to 20. That's something you can't do on 4x Ragavan, no other 1 drop dudes, 4x Plow, and 2x Bolt. There is little value in flinging Bolt to the dome in response to Standstill crack on end step, b/c you're just going to refund their life with Plow.

    In UR Dreadstill we play 4-6 game action threats, but we also play 6x 1cmc dudes that come down before the Standstill (and they can't be hit by Karakas). Saga allowed us to finally drop Mishra's Factory. Between Standstill, we are also highly likely to resolve Scroll of Fate which ups the game actions count quite a bit.

    On Saga, people also routinely fail to understand mechanics and choose to blow 2 Stifles on construct creation, rather than 1x Stifle vs the ability to "gain" ability to make constructs ever. It's also pretty hilarious that people would put Torpor Orb in their SB [like normal cantrip cartel, no Karn], but they won't add Dress Down vs that same Thassa....even though it 1-shots constructs, and draws a card....and Thassa was all over that top8.

  4. #4684
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I know there are many factors to consider for all the variants, but I saw this deck that is just quad-laser focused on their game plan. No fussing around with numbers, just give me 4 of the cards I want, lets go.

    http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=31158&d=442127&f=LE
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  5. #4685
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I know there are many factors to consider for all the variants, but I saw this deck that is just quad-laser focused on their game plan. No fussing around with numbers, just give me 4 of the cards I want, lets go.

    http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=31158&d=442127&f=LE
    I count 4 FoW to stop Surgical Extraction. Daze only has text vs players who don't understand that there is no urgency to play into it b/c this isn't an aggressive deck. Sit back, make your land drops, don't get your mana Stifle'd, and they can't kill you out of nowhere.

    Now to be fair a lot of legacy players are so brainwashed by mindless jammy jam cards that they don't understand that all their jamming really isn't relevant. Just play to stop their deck, and you win by default more often than Nought.

  6. #4686
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    On Saga, people also routinely fail to understand mechanics and choose to blow 2 Stifles on construct creation, rather than 1x Stifle vs the ability to "gain" ability to make constructs ever. It's also pretty hilarious that people would put Torpor Orb in their SB [like normal cantrip cartel, no Karn], but they won't add Dress Down vs that same Thassa....even though it 1-shots constructs, and draws a card....and Thassa was all over that top8.
    If you're talking about Ark4n's video where he double Stifled Saga to stop construct creation, I think he was tapped out for Ragavan when Saga hit Chapter 2. Waiting a turn to hold up Stifle mana is probably the better play. Once tapped out and Saga levelled, he realized those Constructs stop Ragavan (and almost every attacker in his deck with Dreadnought removed) so he ended up burning 2 Stifles to trade with less than 2/3 of a card just to let Ragavan keep connecting. That does trade positively for mana (badly for cards) and I think it made opponent tap Ancient Tomb 2 more times. Ragavan is so overpowered that you can get rewarded for burning cards to make it connect, but overall it showed the weakness in his lack of wincons. At least with the 1-of Dreadnought he had the option to ignore 2/2 tokens instead of throwing multiple cards at them. I think his primary wincon is people conceding to Ragavan connecting 2-3 times.

    @jammy jam: Surely you've seen how quickly people jam or concede online?
    Online magic, especially Leagues, has a different incentive structure to paper magic and that encourages players to play differently. In paper Magic, you're there for a fixed amount of time playing a fixed number of rounds no matter what, so unless you need to leave to get food you might as well grind it out until it's over. Especially when DCI still used Elo ratings, every win counts. If you can spend another 20 minutes to outplay them and not take the loss to variance, you do it. Online people jam, and if it backfires into a "feels bad" moment, they'll just concede to a tilt even without the opponent having a demonstrable wincon. Sure they could try to come back and win that game, but they could just requeue immediately, get a fresh start, and feel good. You get more trophies by playing fast than playing tight, so why stick around and grind out from an unfavorable position? I think that has led to people playing Magic differently.

  7. #4687
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    nice, should've known that this where discussion of Ark4n's list was at.

    Agree with @FTW: Standstill looked pretty bad. I could see bringing in 1-2 copies from the board in certain MUs, but MD it's damn near unplayable in a meta of 8-12 1drop Delver.

    I think the correct way to look at the deck is as Delver-less Delver with US in the Delver slot. Yes, Ragavan's utility is fully leveraged here, as mentioned (Karakas, PEnding, construct etc.), but when I still counted 26 spells, my first instinct was just to put those Delvers back in for Monkeys (yes, also because I'm not about to shell out Ä50 apiece for them). Monkeys did some impressive Dashing in that Challenge, but I'm not at all convinced that it's a better overall card in an open/offline meta. As @Fox wrote, there are also good reasons to run DRC over either of them; and my guess is that we'll want more than 4 1-drops in the end, the makeup for which remains to be seen.

    I also liked the single Dreadnought here--there are just too many decks that can't handle the 12/12--but the tool I'm really looking at is Shadowspear (maybe over Foundry): turn2 US on its own now becomes a half-evasive, lifegaining 7-power army ready to attack by T4, like some kind of Mishra's SFM.

    Going from the original list, I'd reduce MD Swords for more PEnding and Bolts, shave a US or 2, add another TNN and/or Mentor (more threats to equip)

    On the mana: It's not clear to me to what extent the fragility of all-duals actually works in our favor, as it soaks up WL that would otherwise hit US. perhaps without Monkey business we'd want to include a few basics..

  8. #4688
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    When I'm talking about jammy jams, I'm talking about cards people mindlessly spam regardless of anything else going on in the game. Prime examples include Strix, Snapcaster, Ice-Fang, Uro, Shardless, SFM, etc. Players of these cards and the inane pile of no-strategy good stuff that goes with them will be your loudest complainers about a card like Saga. These types of players can't stand ever making a sacrifice and playing a more precise and powerful card, b/c it's not always "good." They will sit on their Abrupt Decay types and whine because they had to use 2 cards to deal with 1 card, b/c it's of a type they can't interact with. You also see this kind of complaining when they get overrun by 2/2s from Field of the Dead. Meanwhile everyone else in legacy is saying "it looks like you seem to routinely have problems vs land cards, perhaps you should play Wasteland or Trophy b/c you clearly need it."

    Standstill is highly playable vs Delver, as in I might cut 1...on the draw. You do need to build the deck correctly however. Delver is among the easiest matchups we have, and it doesn't matter what card is legal unless it is called Wrenn or Oko. As easy as Delver is, the easiest of all time for us was Lurrus Delver (b/c they couldn't play Oko after Wrenn ban); this was a cakewalk. Arcanist is another card we were deeply saddened to see get banned, b/c we love responding to 2 mana 1/3s with Standstill and drawing 3 to their flashback Ponder meme, and making them bleed out blue cards trying to protect the 1/3 from Plow or Bolt as we're developing mana and getting far outside Daze range.

    When choosing Standstill/Landstill vs Dreadstill you're mostly picking whether or not you want to target Thassa and/or really go after Delver's mana. In terms of the Oko meta, Standstill/Landstill had a difficult time with Oko only, whereas UR Dreadstill had an overwhelmingly positive matchup vs Oko Delver (they were horribly slow, and played into Daze super hard). Now that it has gone to UR Delver, UWr Standstill/Landstill is back on the menu. Spikefield Hazard is a helluva card, and 2x Prismatic Ending brings 1-cmc kill spells up to 8x vs Delver. UR Dreadstill is just a different way to attack UR Delver and the meta. You also have specialization options towards Timeless Dragon/Prismatic Ending/3rd color or Saga/DRC/Dress Down. Whether Standstill/Landstill or Dreadstill, you actively want to be paired against Delver right now. The ReplenishStill meme, however, that turbo-died when Endurance got printed.

  9. #4689
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    When I'm talking about jammy jams, I'm talking about cards people mindlessly spam regardless of anything else going on in the game. Prime examples include Strix, Snapcaster, Ice-Fang, Uro, Shardless, SFM, etc. Players of these cards and the inane pile of no-strategy good stuff that goes with them will be your loudest complainers about a card like Saga. These types of players can't stand ever making a sacrifice and playing a more precise and powerful card, b/c it's not always "good." They will sit on their Abrupt Decay types and whine because they had to use 2 cards to deal with 1 card, b/c it's of a type they can't interact with. You also see this kind of complaining when they get overrun by 2/2s from Field of the Dead. Meanwhile everyone else in legacy is saying "it looks like you seem to routinely have problems vs land cards, perhaps you should play Wasteland or Trophy b/c you clearly need it."
    Players do it because it's the direction Wizards has taken the game since at least a decade ago. It's how the most formats work and all new players know.

    Old school players remember Magic used to have many diverse strategies beyond the combat step. Old decks had to have dedicated strategies and synergies, because creatures were weak and most cards were not that good individually at face value (none of these "1-card combos" as you call them). Random creature piles would get steamrolled by decks strategically using cards towards a clear goal. Even creature piles had to combine them towards some strategy (Elves ramp, Lackey/Vial mana cheating, Ponza LD, Slivers synergy, spending multiple cards to make a fatty, scalable threats, toolbox & recursion decks) because just casting random fair creatures was not good enough. Trading 1-for-1 didn't matter as much as whose gameplan was advancing more or who was able to disrupt the other's strategy. It was also much more common to have single cards printed that hated out whole strategies, then to run a mix of narrow solutions for whole strategies rather than trying to play generic 1-for-1s against any deck. (Until Vindicate it was very rare to see an efficient card that could kill anything against any deck, so you had to settle for disrupting a different way).

    But Timmies got frustrated when Terra Stomper.dec lost to things like total land destruction, total hand destruction, removing the untap step or draw step, pillowforts, prisons, griefer mechanics, mana burn, killing them with their own wincon, Storm, decking, 20x counterspell + 1 Morphling/Millstone... so since at least M10 they fundamentally changed the game to revolve around turning creatures sideways. Their first attempt of Baneslayer Angel (cramming many keyword abilities on 1 card) still loses to Doom Blade, so they settled on pushing ETB value creatures and overpowered early drops. Adding the Planeswalker card type further pushed the game towards creatures, because creature advantage is the cleanest answer. Is it a surprise that value creatures have now taken over most formats?

    Legacy's Brainstorm + fetchlands combines with that philosophy to mean any Ux deck can just splash all the value stuff, and it turns out that wins games. Now the format is mostly 1-for-1 (blue tempo with undercosted threats) vs 2-for-1 (blue midrange with value creatures) vs combo (often enabled by blue cantrips), so the focus of the game for fair decks becomes drawing your creatures and making positive trades.

    It's been so long now, and I gave up complaining after M10-M11, so I haven't really reflected on how much the game has changed until I started brewing silly decks for premodern Random Standard. But the game has changed a lot. And this is the game they want. They like printing a few overpowered "bomb" Mythic 1-card wincons. They want casual players to topdeck their shiny expensive card and have the card actually live up to the excitement they feel when it takes over the game. Then they get to feel the joy they want that shiny card to evoke, justifying the money they spent on it and encouraging more spending. They don't like spending $50 on Baneslayer Angel and dying to 2-mana Doom Blade. They want a game where spending more money on the new strictly better pokemons lets you topdeck into wins regardless of game state, justifying the spending.

    I noticed you're an Enlightened Tutor player too (UW Dreadstill, Esper Landstill, BW Arguel's Shadow) so you must have encountered enough players naysaying the card as a 2-for-1, missing you don't have to use it to get 1-for-1s but can tutor up cards that destroy whole strategies or combo pieces that win the game. I think ETutor is one of the most slept-on old cards in this format (Mystical got banned ages ago), and this jamming value philosophy is probably why it gets passed over.

  10. #4690
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    On E-Tutor, a lot of the nay sayers have 2x SB slots given to the same narrow artifact/enchant, which doesn't make a lot of sense when they could effectively double up slots in a wide variety of matchups using the SB E-Tutor trick. This same group of players also struggles to count strategic development as CA...unless it's Shame Island, then they love Noxious Revival/1-turn of Mirri's Guile (necro cantrip) for some inexplicable reason.

    They never really understood that if you Tutor a card that cantrips (like Astro or Shark'nado or Standstill), that you are at worst card-neutral. When looking at 1x Astrolabe, you also have Teferi which further incentivized the Tutor for Astro, on top of the fixing. The new interaction that goes over their head is Tutor Alpine Moon, possibly vindicate a land (Saga) and kill all other copies in deck. A long way down from plays like these is the [usually] 2 mana hate card that wins the game, found by E-Tutor on turn 1, and as a bonus it beats discard.

    The single most important thing you can do with a blue deck is make sure the secondary color finds blue mana. It was a pretty big loss when they banned the 1x Astrolabe + 1x E-Tutor maindeck option...but then they printed Timeless Dragon, which is also fairly outrageous mana screw insurance for UW. It's not as good in Dreadstill though [lower white source counts].

    On the UR side, DRC can mill to Island. If we're talking vintage, Saga finds Sapphire, and also Jet (or Lotus) for Yawg Will. Attacking mana variance is where Standstill-based decks can outclass decks that have to burn 4 slots on Ponder and play tap-down sorceries into Narset/Leo/Chalice to keep up on mana development +/- color fixing. UG has Reclaimer. E-Tutor is no longer a member of the maindeck fixing club; at least not until the next Astrolabe. The SB expanding trick is still live though.

  11. #4691
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    E-Tutor is no longer a member of the maindeck fixing club; at least not until the next Astrolabe. The SB expanding trick is still live though.
    At least for Landstill/Dreadstill. UW RipHelm / UW Parfait can ETutor for Land Tax to fix colors. Strawberry Shortcake can tutor for Great Furnace to get their main color (much worse than Weldable Astrolabe but beats being color-screwed).

    Those strategies don't really work in Standstill decks though. You'd have to go pretty deep and play garbage like Sanctum Plowbeast or Expedition Map/Wayfarer's Bauble. Map is at least something you might run in a Saga-Dreadnought build, but these cards still all fail if you're stuck on 1 Plains and no 2nd land.

  12. #4692

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    On E-Tutor, a lot of the nay sayers have 2x SB slots given to the same narrow artifact/enchant, which doesn't make a lot of sense when they could effectively double up slots in a wide variety of matchups using the SB E-Tutor trick. This same group of players also struggles to count strategic development as CA...unless it's Shame Island, then they love Noxious Revival/1-turn of Mirri's Guile (necro cantrip) for some inexplicable reason.

    They never really understood that if you Tutor a card that cantrips (like Astro or Shark'nado or Standstill), that you are at worst card-neutral. When looking at 1x Astrolabe, you also have Teferi which further incentivized the Tutor for Astro, on top of the fixing. The new interaction that goes over their head is Tutor Alpine Moon, possibly vindicate a land (Saga) and kill all other copies in deck. A long way down from plays like these is the [usually] 2 mana hate card that wins the game, found by E-Tutor on turn 1, and as a bonus it beats discard.

    The single most important thing you can do with a blue deck is make sure the secondary color finds blue mana. It was a pretty big loss when they banned the 1x Astrolabe + 1x E-Tutor maindeck option...but then they printed Timeless Dragon, which is also fairly outrageous mana screw insurance for UW. It's not as good in Dreadstill though [lower white source counts].
    It's you who doesn't understand this lol

    Island is worth a card (this is clear, many people play island in their deck for the purpose of going -1 card in hand +1 island on the battlefield)
    If you play Mystic Sanctuary you have lost a card from your hand (-1) got an island in play (albeit sometimes tapped one, +1), and (if lategame / 3 islands) put a card from your graveyard on top of your library (+0). Net result: +0
    If you cast Noxious revival you have lost a card from your hand (-1) and put a card from your graveyard on top of your library (+0). Net result: -1

    Astrolabe (ignoring the cantrip) is not worth a card (this is clear, nobody plays mana cylix in their deck)
    If you Enlightened Tutor for Astrolabe and then cast it:
    You lost a card from your hand (Enlightened Tutor) (-1)
    You tutor a card to the top of your library (+0)
    You lost a card from your hand (Astrolabe) (-1)
    You gained an Astrolabe in play (+0, see mana cylix comment)
    You drew a card from the ETB trigger (+1)
    Net result: -1. You are NOT "card neutral"

    Ill spell out the same thing for sharknado:
    You lost Enlightened Tutor from your hand (-1)
    You tutor sharknado to the top of your library (+0)
    You lost sharknado from your hand (-1)
    You gained a shark in play (+?)
    You drew a card from the cycle (+1)
    Net result: -1 (+shark token)

    I like Etutor too but this point about tutoring for astrolabe has always been total rubbish

    Map is at least something you might run in a Saga-Dreadnought build, but these cards still all fail if you're stuck on 1 Plains and no 2nd land.
    E-Tutoring for any of these means you go -1 card just to help you fix your mana
    If your opening hand has only 1 plains and no other mana sources and you want to go -1 card to help fix your mana do you know what you can do? MULLIGAN
    If you have other good reasons to separately play both Astrolabe and Enlightened Tutor in your maindeck then having the OPTION to do this is something worth being aware of; claiming that this 'combo' is an actual incentive to play Enlightened Tutor maindeck is nonsense

  13. #4693
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    E-Tutoring for any of these means you go -1 card just to help you fix your mana
    If your opening hand has only 1 plains and no other mana sources and you want to go -1 card to help fix your mana do you know what you can do? MULLIGAN
    If you have other good reasons to separately play both Astrolabe and Enlightened Tutor in your maindeck then having the OPTION to do this is something worth being aware of; claiming that this 'combo' is an actual incentive to play Enlightened Tutor maindeck is nonsense
    My comment above was pretty clear about this being an option (if you're already an ETutor deck and already running Map for Saga tricks), not the reason to run Tutors. Also notice the phrasing "go pretty deep" and "garbage".

    It does help when the tutor you already run for a variety of other reasons can also get you out of color screw. Not because you kept a 1 Plains hand, but because the opponent Hymned your other lands, Wasted your Tundra, Stifled a fetch, or cast Smallpox/Sinkhole. Those are more reasonable ways to get stranded on just 1 Plains even when your hand looked keepable. I guess NonETutor players prefer the option of "concede". In other decks I prefer tutoring for Land Tax in that scenario, because it both fixes and gives card advantage, and it will very likely trigger in all those scenarios where opponent manascrews you, but it's not something Standstill decks play.

    Shortcake also runs colorless lands so it can get stuck on something like Plains + Ancient Tomb + Urza's Saga where it had a keepable hand but then draws Welders and REBs and can't cast them. Going -1 card to get red is better than being -3 cards because you can't cast your hand.

  14. #4694

    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    My comment above was pretty clear about this being an option (if you're already an ETutor deck and already running Map for Saga tricks), not the reason to run Tutors. Also notice the phrasing "go pretty deep" and "garbage".
    I agree that you understand this WRT to Sanctum Plowbeast / Map etc, I shouldn't have quoted your statement there, I'm was only trying to address this:

    They never really understood that if you Tutor a card that cantrips (like Astro or Shark'nado or Standstill), that you are at worst card-neutral.
    The single most important thing you can do with a blue deck is make sure the secondary color finds blue mana. It was a pretty big loss when they banned the 1x Astrolabe + 1x E-Tutor maindeck option...

  15. #4695
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I don't think you've put in the hours on Dreadstill to see the difference that Astrolabe/E-Tutor made. The mana had to be totally reworked without it. There was also a substantial decrease in mulligans with Astrolabe; lots of hands have mana quantity, and just need a way to turn that into finding blue mana. You're talking about a deck which at the time had 6 colorless sources and a Tundra - you do whatever it takes to avoid the mulligan lottery with those in your deck.

    In any deck with Standstill what we're doing is turning is turning mana quantity into mana quality, and all of this is being approached in a way that beats the card Daze. This is the Standstill variance reduction engine. Going up on strategy is the same concept as going up a card. The largest fraction of avoidable losses comes from either mulligans or the mana not coming together. It is comparatively rare to lose because of something the opponent's deck was doing, in a game where our mana came together.

    Even if you don't believe in mulligan reduction or strategy, UW Dreadstill is the best Teferi-using deck in the format. We'd play that PW as a 3x which meant Astrolabe was going to recoup raw value, and then start going up on raw cards. It got worse and worse for opponents as the mana engine turned on all of the loops [Karn->SB, Sevinne's->yard, Azcanta->library] and ultimately led to tapping Scroll on end step with Teferi passive -> take 12, and I don't care how many kill spells are in your hand, you didn't play to win. It's a bigger late game than most legacy decks have, and all you have to do is get there with the mana, and that's why you played E-Tutor for Astro to ensure the mana was more likely to get to this point...and after the first Teferi, the CA became relentless as the ability for opponents to interact meaningfully evaporated.

    Being able to cycle E-Tutor for Astrolabe or unites an opening gameplan's Shark'nado/Standstill, it is a very different thing than searching an all-in combo piece. When I can unite Standstill & Shark'nado but also choose to attack internal mana variance with tempo using E-Tutor, legacy becomes very easy - to the point that resolving and protecting Oko became an opposing strategy's only viable wincon.

    On Shame Island, you already have 3 Islands in play...you're not getting a +1, your mana was already set up.

    Shame Island also increases mulls by contaminating opening hands in decks that are already trying to get gg'd by Wasteland, as they play 3-4 duals. Now Ponder can bail you out of crappy mana situations you put yourself in, but it shouldn't have ever gotten this bad in the first place. Then there's the whole issue with not playing 4x Vista and taking the free 5-10% winrate, all so you can have a turn of Mirri's Guile... This Shame Island stuff is not good manabase building, particularly when you're trying to aggressively set up 2x basic Plains for Verdict.

  16. #4696
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Thinking about this more..

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    Island is worth a card (this is clear, many people play island in their deck for the purpose of going -1 card in hand +1 island on the battlefield)
    If you play Mystic Sanctuary you have lost a card from your hand (-1) got an island in play (albeit sometimes tapped one, +1), and (if lategame / 3 islands) put a card from your graveyard on top of your library (+0). Net result: +0
    If you cast Noxious revival you have lost a card from your hand (-1) and put a card from your graveyard on top of your library (+0). Net result: -1
    Glacial Floodplain, Irrigated Farmland and Soaring Seacliff are not worth a card in Legacy. Tapped nonbasic Island is significantly worse than untapped Island. Even if it taps for 2 colors and cycles!

    I tried Mystic in other UW decks and always ended up cutting it. Memeing back Terminus or Brainstorm is fun, but in your hand it's a dead card (early game tapped land instead of untapped land can mean a loss) and once you have 3 Islands you don't really need a 4th. Control is already favored lategame and struggles the most at stabilizing early. You don't really need another card to add marginal value lategame, especially if that card also makes it harder to survive to that stage.

    I played a lot of Landstill back in the day, when cards like Dust Bowl and Tolaria West were in the deck. They were great value when the format was slow. But when the format sped up, it reached a point where the possible late game value was not good enough to justify having a land that leaves you color/tempo-screwed in the early game. Mystic Sanctuary seems to fall in a similar category.


    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    If your opening hand has only 1 plains and no other mana sources and you want to go -1 card to help fix your mana do you know what you can do? MULLIGAN
    The more I think about this, this sounds terrible. Which would you prefer?
    A) 6 random unknown cards (mulligan)
    B) 6 cards you know are worth keeping if you had both colors (going -1 card to fix mana for an otherwise good hand)

    If you have to go -1 hand size either way, I would much rather choose B than gamble with variance and risk having to go down to 5.

    If you have ways to get value from that Astrolabe in play (Teferi, Goblin Welder, Oko, Urza's Saga) then you aren't even going down a card.

    Tutoring for Wayfarer's Bauble still sounds terrible, but in general being able to tutor to keep an otherwise good hand beats random redraws.
    Last edited by FTW; 06-25-2021 at 05:24 PM.

  17. #4697
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    I would say that Mystic Sanctuary is safely in the Commander-only playable category. It's nuts in that format when you can buy back Treasure Cruise, but in Legacy it would need to be worth the same amount of cards; neglecting better mana is not good.

    Is ETutor with 1-2 artifact lands even good? Basic plans lets you ETutor for Seat of the Synod, but that just seems a little too risky against a format that will always have not only Wasteland but potential sideboard hate like Abrade. There is the new ETB tapped artifact land that is indestructible, but that is nowhere near playable here.

    I think it's important to note, whether it's good or not, Bant Mid-range is actually playing Abundant Growth to fix it's mana. While it's not ideal, especially in Legacy, it replaces itself and helps to pay for Uro's steeply colored cost. I don't think there's an equivalent for UW/Still decks.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  18. #4698
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I don't think there's an equivalent for UW/Still decks.
    Timeless Dragon.

  19. #4699
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Nice, that seems pretty solid of a plan to me then.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  20. #4700
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    Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

    Iím on 4 Timeless Dragon for manafixing and its been working perfect. The cards actually busted only downside is you have to run 4 white sources so 2 Tundra 2 Plains. But yeah, I would never play less then 4 Dragon in this deck personally I think its one of the best cards printed for the deck.
    UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by xsockmonkeyx View Post
    EDIT: and Roodmistah. If Dreadstill sucks then he's been mopping up the East Coast with a "crap" deck and making you all look bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
    "Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

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