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Thread: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

  1. #5521
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Playing control with worse access to blue mana than a Daze deck is a bit suspect. Here's the numbers on this one from the hypergeometric calculator:
    -25.9% chance an opening hand can't produce basic blue.
    -83.7% chance to have any blue in opening hand.
    -78.3% chance to open a hand with 2 lands.
    -14.2% chance an opening hand land is Saga (i.e. going to die).

    The first and last percentages are particularly concerning taken together in a format with Wasteland and Daze. This is a lot of risk for a card (Ponder) that only has a 39.9% chance of being in an opening hand. It gets a little bleak when you're "smoothing out the mana" as your main target is to not mull the 1 land hand that can both make a blue mana and have a Ponder.

    ^when you put Ponder into a Xerox'ified mana base, that specific 1-lander mulligan risk is what you're trying not to get called on. That, and color fixing (which 2c decks that can use colorless mana don't really need), is where Ponder makes win % rise.

    It's a bit difficult to roll that scenario that Ponder can bail us out on [b/c 78.3% chance of 2 lands in opening hand]. But, let's say we roll the 21.7% 1-lander; we'll round that to 1 game in every 5...in this minority of games, we can minimally round the numbers to define 5 scenarios:
    -scenario 1, 2, and 3: had a basic blue.
    -scenario 4: had a nonbasic blue.
    -scenario 5: had zero blue.

    This is where you start questioning Ponder's 39.9% success rate to be in the opening hand. Just how much mana security are we getting going into turn 2 when we multiply a fail rate of 60% [Ponder] by a fail rate of 20% [no blue in the 1-lander] +/- that additional 20% failrate if you lose the nonbasic into hostile Wasteland lottery.

    The currency Ponder is trading to generate winrate is already devalued (b/c we don't care that much about color reqs of our deck). So you have to wonder "what if I just played 23 or 24 lands instead? Which build loses more b/c it mulligan'd? Which build will have more synergy with Standstill - Ponders or Otawara?"

    Run the numbers and you realize as Xerox'ing happens the lands go down, the Ponders go up, and the mulling also rises. This is ofc a stunning revelation to everyone who uses Xerox b/c "it's the best thing you can do in any blue deck ever, b/c look at the results all the best decks play it".

    The part they're missing is that when you play Standstill and you mulligan or kill yourself on Wasteland, you don't get to ignore everything bad that happened b/c you Ponder'd into an [insert 1-card combo, like Uro] you can jam no matter what. Jam that Standstill after things go south, and you give your opponent 3 more cards - you *will* lose.

    Xerox'ify the mana and bind yourself to Ponder and you go down with the ship: you have to fight Chalice, Leo/Narset/Labyrinth. The more of these battles you have to fight, the harder it is to make a window for Standstill...which means that all the consistency of Ponder = seeing more Standstills in your top 3 that you'll never be able to cast [without auto-losing]. That's not the good kind of consistency.
    ---
    ^This is why Currency Converter is the correct card. When you put yourself in a crappy position with Ponder in a Standstill deck, it becomes pretty important to be able to flush the trash:
    -need to be able to get the 1 drop into play through Chalice (i.e. Saga find Currency Converter), so you can dump cantrip cartel for castables.
    -need to be able to dump cantrip cartel without losing CA to Narset/Leo/Labyrinth
    -need to be able to dump mid-late game Standstills your deck can't cast (b/c the effects that let you stabilize for Standstill had their spot stolen by Ponder).
    ---
    Currency Converter is quite good, it got a Standstill deck into a reasonably-sized top8 despite running Ponder. Certainly a feat Retrofitter couldn't help with.

  2. #5522
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    The currency Ponder is trading to generate winrate is already devalued (b/c we don't care that much about color reqs of our deck). So you have to wonder "what if I just played 23 or 24 lands instead? Which build loses more b/c it mulligan'd? Which build will have more synergy with Standstill - Ponders or Otawara?"
    Yeah, it seems pretty safe to go:
    -4 Ponder
    +1 Vista
    +1 Otawara
    +1 Map
    +1 Verdict

    I've never felt flooded on 23 lands. Especially when those lands include Urza's Saga & Heliod. Between that and Currency Converter and Shark Typhoon, there's always something for the mana to do.

    Landstill has always operated better on higher land count rather than playing the low land count+Xerox principle that Delver uses. Every time you topdeck a land instead of Ponder under an active Standstill, the asymmetry tilts in your favor. You advance mana towards big plays and dodge the scenario of being forced to discard to hand size. Meanwhile UW(r) doesn't need T1 Ponder to fix colors. Landstill mitigates flooding by running non-spell mana sinks. You can go T1 Island T2 Saga Standstill and never run out of things to do with your mana, without ever casting a spell (Saga -> constructs -> Map -> Heliod -> Saga again -> more constructs -> Currency Converter & Saga again -> lol). Mana utilization will happen. Most at instant speed. Just play Draw Go and win.
    Last edited by FTW; 08-24-2022 at 04:11 PM.

  3. #5523
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    The popularity of non-HullDay UWr is so strange:
    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetyp...-control#paper

    A deck like this wants 2-mana card advantage so it jams EI, when it could so easily run Standstill instead.

    It's almost the same shell. Jeskai spells, Snapcaster, Timeless Dragon, planeswalkers... and then 4x EI. But most of the time that EI is just playing a land or casting a cantrip, since the deck is so reactive compared to Delver. Meanwhile Standstill can be played on turn 2 and always draws 3 cards. Standstill + Shark Typhoon would be an upgrade. I think the format is sleeping on how good Standstill is if they're not on the Day's Undoing engine.

  4. #5524
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Several UWr Standstill results made it on mtgtop8 recently: https://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=34&meta=39&f=LE

    Including 12th in the Aug 22nd Legacy Challenge with SharklessStill (and no Ponder)

    //Lands: 24
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Scalding Tarn
    3 Tundra
    2 Volcanic Island
    1 Plateau
    4 Island
    1 Plains
    1 Mystic Sanctuary
    1 Otawara, Soaring City
    4 Wasteland

    //Spells: 22
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Prismatic Ending
    2 Spell Pierce
    1 Spell Snare
    2 Counterspell
    1 Force of Negation
    1 Supreme Verdict

    //Enchantments:
    4 Standstill

    //Creatures: 6
    2 Snapcaster Mage
    4 Timeless Dragon

    //Planeswalkers: 4
    3 Teferi, Time Raveler
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    //Sideboard: 15
    4 Surgical Extraction
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Dovin's Veto
    2 Engineered Explosives
    3 Pyroclasm
    1 Narset, Parter of Veils
    1 The Wandering Emperor


    The same list came 2nd in a small paper event a few days earlier.

    Instead of 2-4 Shark Typhoon 2 Timeless Dragon, this is just on the full set of Timeless. I wonder if that was to dodge Pyroblast. Timeless is a more aggressive clock too. Without the Saga lines, it's the best way to pressure opponent into cracking Standstill early. With that many Timeless and 24 lands, I'm surprised there isn't a 2nd basic Plains. 3rd Tundra is greedy! Maybe there's a subgame of baiting opponent into going down lands to Waste you when you're the 24 land Wasteland deck, but Blood Moon/B2B could shut this deck off WW.

    Their answer to Saga and other value lands, instead of playing Saga, is to just play the classic 4x Wasteland.

    Instead of worrying about a PW that doesn't die to Pyroblast, they just play the best one and plan to win every counter war (2x Fluster, 2x Veto, 10 MD counters + 2 Snapcaster, 3 Teferi). I wonder if jamming Jace is just better than playing a worse card to dodge hate. The plan looks better on 24 lands and that many counters.

  5. #5525

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Brian Coval just dropped this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-5wbTfUxnE

    Yeah, I am not a big Saga fan either, I'm tinkering with this
    //Lands: 23
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Scalding Tarn
    3 Prismatic Vista
    2 Tundra
    1 Volcanic Island
    4 Island
    2 Plains
    1 Mountain
    1 Mystic Sanctuary
    1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
    2 Wasteland

    //Spells: 22
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Prismatic Ending
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Counterspell
    1 Force of Negation
    1 Supreme Verdict
    1 Council's Judgment
    1 Pyroblast

    //Enchantments: 9
    4 Standstill
    3 Shark Typhoon
    2 Dress Down

    //Creatures: 2
    2 Timeless Dragon

    //Planeswalkers: 4
    3 Teferi, Time Raveler
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    //Sideboard: 15
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Meltdown
    1 Kozilek's Return
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Ashiok, Dream Render
    1 Hydroblast
    1 Narset, Parter of Veils
    2 Deafening Silence
    1 Stony Silence
    1 Baneslayer Angel
    1 Wear/Tear

    Hall might be sketchy with only 9 enchantments.
    Dress Down is extremely good against Saga decks and has utility against a range of other decks as well.
    Council's Judgment, Baneslayer, Ashiok, and Stony are all specific to my local meta.

  6. #5526
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    I feel even without Urza's Saga, you'd still want Currency Converter. Its synergy with all the cycle cards plus operating under Standstill is just really really good.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  7. #5527
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Agree Currency Converter is strong. I assume you're avoiding artifacts because of 2x Meltdown 1x Stony Silence? Currency Converter gets value so quickly that it's probably worth it, and you can board it out.

    Edit: Brian makes good points. If opponents consistently crack Standstill, Saga gets a bit worse. Saga's even harder on the mana when the deck has 20 lands 4x Ponder (need to Ponder into lands, conflicting with Saga usage). A suicidal land also makes a bigger difference on 20-21 lands vs 23-24 lands and without tech like Expedition Map & Sevinne's to avoid going down on lands. Without the Saga snowball tech you also lose the biggest upsides (only make 2 2/2s?) and get the bigger downsides (mana issues). I think Brian's mana issues with Saga disappear if you build in the direction we had above earlier (23-24 lands with more colored sources, Map, Sevinne's, no Ponder, no Wandering Emperor). But maybe the counterspell plan is still better?
    Last edited by FTW; 09-06-2022 at 04:04 PM.

  8. #5528
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Agree Currency Converter is strong. I assume you're avoiding artifacts because of 2x Meltdown 1x Stony Silence? Currency Converter gets value so quickly that it's probably worth it, and you can board it out.

    Edit: Brian makes good points. If opponents consistently crack Standstill, Saga gets a bit worse. Saga's even harder on the mana when the deck has 20 lands 4x Ponder (need to Ponder into lands, conflicting with Saga usage). A suicidal land also makes a bigger difference on 20-21 lands vs 23-24 lands and without tech like Expedition Map & Sevinne's to avoid going down on lands. Without the Saga snowball tech you also lose the biggest upsides (only make 2 2/2s?) and get the bigger downsides (mana issues). I think Brian's mana issues with Saga disappear if you build in the direction we had above earlier (23-24 lands with more colored sources, Map, Sevinne's, no Ponder, no Wandering Emperor). But maybe the counterspell plan is still better?
    Counterspell was briefly playable when 5cmc Teferi was printed (1 less mana to hold up compared to 6 mana for JTMS and Cspell). Then it was too slow to be reliable vs Wrenn, and it changed to 3x Snare. Then Wrenn got banned and 2 of the 3 copies of Snare immediately went to FoN (to stop losing to SnT). The last Snare was replaced by Ending (which effectively operates as a counterspell vs permanent spells).

    The slot of Cspell should be a Verdict, the slot of Pierce should be a FoN. CJ to Sevinnes. Pyroblast to a reliable card (put it in the SB).

  9. #5529
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    UGW Yorion LandsStill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8somslPBns
    3-2 in league

    BoshNRoll's list
    //Companion: 1
    1 Yorion, Sky Nomad

    //Lands: 32
    3 Misty Rainforest
    3 Flooded Strand
    2 Windswept Heath
    0 Prismatic Vista
    2 Tropical Island
    1 Tundra
    1 Savannah
    1 Spara's Headquarters
    1 Snow-Covered Forest
    1 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Snow-Covered Plains
    2 Boseiju, Who Endures
    1 Otawara, Soaring City
    1 Eiganjo, Seat of the Empire
    1 Karakas
    1 Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth
    1 Wasteland
    1 Field of the Dead
    1 Dark Depths
    2 Thespian's Stage
    4 Urza's Saga
    1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity

    //Spells: 23
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Prismatic Ending
    2 Life from the Loam
    1 Force of Negation

    //Enchantments: 8
    4 Standstill
    4 Shark Typhoon

    //Creatures: 10
    4 Elvish Reclaimer
    3 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    1 Endurance
    2 Timeless Dragon

    //Artifacts: 7
    3 Mox Diamond
    3 Currency Converter
    1 Soul-Guide Lantern
    0 Expedition Map

    //Sideboard: 14
    3 Endurance
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Hydroblast
    2 Deafening Silence
    1 Force of Negation
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Blast Zone
    1 Force of Vigor


    This has too much cute stuff going on, but makes me wonder about the viability of green tech we discussed a few pages back. Yorion has little synergy beyond a free blue card. Maybe it could be distilled into something cleaner within 60 cards.

    The biggest takeaway I got is that Elvish Reclaimer is strong with Standstill and the land toolbox. Currency Converter is also strong with all the cycling cards and channel lands. Going heavy on Mox Diamond + Loam + Uro seems like a mistake adding variance and walking into more hate, but a 1-of value Loam seems strong and can be boarded out when bad.

    Draft 60-card version
    //Lands: 23
    4 Prismatic Vista
    2 Misty Rainforest
    2 Flooded Strand
    1 Tundra
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Savannah
    3 Island
    2 Plains
    1 Forest
    1 Otawara, Soaring City
    2 Boseiju, Who Endures
    2 Urza's Saga
    1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity

    //Spells: 20
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Prismatic Ending
    2 Living Wish
    1 Life from the Loam
    1 Force of Negation
    1 Supreme Verdict

    //Enchantments: 7
    4 Standstill
    3 Shark Typhoon

    //Creatures: 6
    3 Elvish Reclaimer
    2 Timeless Dragon
    1 Colossal Skyturtle

    //Planeswalker: 2
    2 Teferi, Time Raveler

    //Artifacts: 2
    1 Currency Converter
    1 Expedition Map

    //Sideboard: 15
    2 Endurance
    1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
    1 Shifting Ceratops
    1 Containment Priest
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Collector Ouphe
    1 Hex Parasite
    1 Karakas
    1 Bojuka Bog
    1 Blast Zone
    1 Veil of Summer
    1 Hydroblast
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Dovin's Veto


    The maindeck green cards all function as tutors / utility / card advantage. The Saga package takes up minimal space while still having enough for a single unanswered Saga to win the game on its own.

    Living Wish serves multi-purpose of turn 2 ramp (tutor for land), game 1 access to answers, and uncounterable threat (Ceratops, Uro). You can also "board out" the slow creatures and still wish for them.
    Other possible Wishboard targets: Wasteland, Ramunap Excavator, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, 3rd Boseiju, Lotus Field, Carnage Tyrant, Meddling Mage

    The tech seems cool but might still be worse than UWr for Pyroblasts and Ruination.
    Last edited by FTW; 09-08-2022 at 03:58 AM.

  10. #5530
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    I tested out the Bant version against some decks (UR Delver, GW Depths, BR Reanimator, Green stompy, Storm).

    Overall the shell seems strong, winning against everything except Reanimator (and going undefeated against Delver over multiple matches). It has much more stable mana than Bosh N Roll's version. Bosh had few basics and 10 colorless lands, depending on Mox/Converter for fixing and risking blowouts to artifact hate. Many games he stumbled on mana. With more basics, fewer colorless lands, no Mox, and higher density of colored sources (almost the same number in 60 cards instead of 80), I've found the mana very stable. I don't stumble on mana and get to do the Standstill control thing consistently.

    After a few matches I went down from 4 to 3 Reclaimers to add back FoN to improve the combo matchup. The shell needs more fine-tuning, but overall I like what green adds. Uncounterable instant interaction through Boseiju, Otawara and Skyturtle is strong. Reclaimer can tutor for toolbox lands, "counter" Wasteland (convert to another land in response), and convert Saga into another land in response to Chapter 3 trigger (to avoid going down on lands). Reclaimer also provides easier access to the Saga-Heliod tricks without having to flood on copies of colorless suicidal lands, while Wishing for Endurance lets you recycle cards to dig up again!

    Living Wish also provides access to great tech without having to flood on copies. It's kind of like Timeless Dragons: dual role of threat or ramp from 2 to 3. Against blue decks, if it doesn't draw a counter, getting Shifting Ceratops is strong. I also like being able to curve T2 Wish T3 Uro in matches where Uro dominates, while you don't lose much to Surgical on Uro or can easily pivot away from Uro when it's bad. It gives the deck access to playable lifegain without the weaknesses and construction limitations of an Uro deck.

    Edit: I tested UWr HullDay too. BantStill came out on top. This engine goes way over the top of their Narset/Jace/EI stuff, as long as Day's Undoing never resolves. Plus the green tech dodges blasts.
    Last edited by FTW; 09-09-2022 at 12:14 AM.

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