Page 273 of 279 FirstFirst ... 173223263269270271272273274275276277 ... LastLast
Results 5,441 to 5,460 of 5564

Thread: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

  1. #5441
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    2,477

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Played some UBw Landstill recently, the deck has been fun. Began with a bye today but ended up 3-0 beating UR Delver and Esper Vial. Same list as previous UBw except Drown #3 and 4 slots went from Tale's End and Coll Brutality to 2x Prismatic Ending. The lack of Timeless and Spikefield is pretty annoying in these colors, but the flip side is better lifegain (including Kaya), Drown, and better PW killers.

    Game 1 vs Delver they got out ahead with DRC and Ragavan, attacked me down to 5 and lost by casting my Standstill. Teferi still in play and cycling Shark as 4/4 pretty much ended the game as they were forced to crack Standstill and pass into my Kaya (lifegain unbeatable as they already lost 2 Bolts getting me to 5). Game 2 they mulled to 5 looking for lands, lost their board and scooped to Standstill.

    Game 1 vs Esper Vial they had the Vial and played into wrath heavily, but I couldn't find it. Game 2 they mulled to 5 and lost to CTP beatdown; also Ashiok confirmed heavy monarch all-in (Courts and Jailer). Game 3 they couldn't keep up in the monarch subgame they introduced and had a lot of 1/1 spirits from their 2x Courts - Plague Engi put a stop to this nonsense, and also took out a random Soulherder.

    There is a misconception in legacy where people misidentify midrange decks as "control." While monarch tactics are very good against midrange [e.g. the Uro decks], they run into trouble when anti-midrange cards are brought in against real control.

  2. #5442
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    2,477

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Went 2-1 tonight. Narrowly lost to Burn in game 3, and won vs DnT and Food Chain Muxus. Event had 8 decks, others included Esper Mentor and BUG Stiflenought; unsure what last 2 decks were.

    List felt great in all the games, even vs Burn (lots of maindeck lifegain). Just drew too many lands vs a Vortex I needed to knock out first in game 3. Only felt need to board 2 cards (EE in and Nihil Spellbomb to deny spell mastery).

    Definitely got a free win off Muxus when colored mana screw met with 4-land reveal off Ringleader into a miss-6 Muxus. Really liked having access to 2x SB Unmoored Ego to name Muxus with, though that play didn't come up.

    Games vs DnT were all fun, even on my mull to 5. Game 1 I almost decked but managed to fire the Kaya cannon for like 30. In game 3 Kaya, Teferi and interaction kept the ground clear until Plague Engi on human stranded 3x 1-toughness humans in hand [Esper Sentinel build].

  3. #5443

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Hi dudes
    Is there a discord for landstill?

    Greedings
    Start land.... turn... iam near to win.

  4. #5444

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    https://twitter.com/Marshal38117189/...268727304?s=20

    This deck looks pretty cool but am going to try some modification to it.
    (1 obvious flaw with the list in the picture is 1 Plateau means the Deltas should be Tarns but thats not what I am thinking about).

    First change is to alter the manabase because I think it's a bit too dual-heavy, change to the more 'stock' uwr manabase like this:
    5 Island
    2 Plains
    1 Mountain
    4 Strand
    4 Vista
    2 Tarn
    1 Tundra
    1 Volcanic

    Then after my previous experience playing a deck with 4x Typhoons I think maybe 4x Typhoons + 3x Dragons is a little bit too much value/clunk, plus the Plateau disappeared with the manabase change so there are fewer Plainscycle targets, so I think I want to cut the Dragons down to 2.

    I also feel like 3 Narset is too many so cut that down to 2.

    I think those 2 maindeck slots I want to be 1 Sevinne's Rec and 1 Dressdown. Sevinne's Rec feels like a good grind option with the Narset/Tef pairing, can get Standstill back, etc. 1 Dressdown helps to cover some strategies that the deck is a bit weak to, opens some SB space, and the utility of having 1 copy seems high because you can bounce it with Tef and bring it back with Sevinnes etc.

    So the maindeck is like this:

    5 Island
    2 Plains
    1 Mountain
    4 Strand
    4 Vista
    2 Tarn
    1 Tundra
    1 Volcanic

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Prismatic Ending
    4 Force of Will
    4 Standstill
    2 Force of Negation
    2 Narset, Parter of Veils
    2 Teferi, Time Raveler
    2 Supreme Verdict

    2 Timeless Dragon
    4 Shark Typhoon
    1 Sevinne's Reclamation
    1 Dress Down

    For the sideboard I think I still like Etutor package for Jeskai so something like:
    2 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Rest In Peace
    1 Canonist (I had autopilot for playing Deafening Silence in this slot but then I remembered I'm not playing Kaheera anymore)
    1 Blood Moon
    1 Energy Flux
    1 Court of Grace
    3 Pyroblast
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Humility
    2 Dress Down
    1 Surgical

    Overall I think the deck looks very good vs fair blue (Delver or Jeskai/Bant/4C etc). Lands matchup seems hard, Standstill already lines up badly vs Field/Depths and now they can kill moon with Boseiju. Possibly sb should switch to magus of the moon / ruination

    Anyway will try it at fnm this week I think

  5. #5445
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    2,477

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    X+2 rule violation, deck needs another Tundra. Moreover you are trying to cast Verdict and would be totally unable to do so vs 1x Port and one Wasteland activation.

    White mana issues magnified by lack of key effect: Karakas. Key effect needed vs Grisel, Emry/Sai, Progenitus (after Dress Down), Thalia.

    Island #5 <<< Otawara.

    Non-Standstill CA lacking, need 2x SCM. Teferi and Narset are not able to drown an opponent in CA. Narset slots to a PW which can imitate Jayemdae Tome's CA.

    Ways to deal with Saga: 0x.

    Cut the Ponders and fix the above problems. Cantripping doesn't matter if you can't draw into the needed effect.

  6. #5446

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Can see lack of W sources being a potential concern regarding verdict, will pay attention to that. Not sure how sensible "X+2" rule is, after you have all 3 plains from your deck surely you are at a point where casting 5/5 is preferable to getting another plains most of the time

    Otawara/Karakas are fine suggestions, I guess cut 1 island for otawara is ok

    If you want a PW that can repeatedly draw cards instead of narset which do you want to play? Jtms? Teferi Hero? Or something weird like Dovin Arbiter / Jace Beleren? Seems possibly unnecessary and/or just worse than Narset

    SCM seems an okay card but idk if it changes things that much

    Outs to saga is 1 ddown main and more in the board. Idk if it's realistic to expect a deck with 4x maindeck standstill to have a good matchup Vs saga G1 anyway so I'm fine with having limited options Vs it

    I don't think your obsession with cutting ponder makes sense in decks not playing stifle

  7. #5447
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    2,477

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    The issue with Narset is that you need to have a second card like Court of Grace to cover long-term CA. Then you have this janky dies to Bolt/Pyroblast effect to cover the possibility that the opponent becomes the monarch.

    As far as Saga goes, you are not at all covered by Dress Down. They could make zero constructs and you are still so screwed by Saga tutor Needle name Shark'nado if you deployed a Standstill, or are trying to deploy a Standstill without having Ending in hand at that exact moment.

    ^scenarios like this or doing things like trying to play Replenish after the printing of Endurance are avoidable catastrophes. If you're walking into scenarios like this, you need to be changing Standstill to Iteration.

  8. #5448
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    4,776

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    I tested this a bit in our gauntlet before some recent format changes. (My pet UW deck was not performing well in the meta, so it was fun to play Landstill again)

    It was a blast to play. Is the Saga package too durdly?

    UWr SagaStill


    //Lands: 24
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Prismatic Vista
    4 Snow-Covered Island
    2 Snow-Covered Plains
    1 Mountain
    1 Tundra
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Plateau
    1 Raugrin Triome
    1 Karakas
    3 Urza's Saga
    1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
    1 Spikefield Hazard

    //Spells: 19
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Prismatic Ending
    2 Sevinne's Reclamation
    1 Force of Negation
    1 Supreme Verdict

    //Enchantments: 7
    4 Standstill
    1 Search for Azcanta
    2 Shark Typhoon

    //Creatures: 4
    2 Snapcaster Mage
    2 Timeless Dragon

    //Planeswalker: 3
    3 Teferi, Time Raveler

    //Artifacts: 3
    1 Expedition Map
    1 Retrofitter Foundry
    1 Soul-Guide Lantern

    //Sideboard: 15
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Force of Negation
    1 By Force
    1 Alpine Moon
    1 Serenity
    1 Pyroclasm
    1 Supreme Verdict
    1 Wasteland
    1 Lotus Field
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Grafdigger's Cage


    There's a lot of late game synergy & durdle shenanigans with Hall + Saga/Sharks/Standstill, or Sevinne + T3feri/Standstill/Saga/Snappy, or with Saga & Map toolboxes.

    Azcanta filtering plays well with the other GY stuff, then becomes a great CA engine late.

    To make room for Saga, I couldn't afford maindeck Wasteland, so it does lack ways to interact with enemy Saga beyond trying to out-Saga them. SB has Alpine Moon, Wasteland and Needle. On the plus side, it is not easy for opponent to shut much down with a single Saga-> Needle. Too many different engines and wincons.

    Is Spikefield Hazard still playable/good after Ragabanned? What about the Triome + Plateau (for Dragon) vs playing more basics and Tundra?

    I don't miss Ponder. When Standstill gets cracked, I want to draw cheap instant interaction (FoW, Brainstorm, FoN, StP, Snapcaster, REB, Surgical, Spikefield, cycling) not sorcery cantrips. With 24 lands I don't need Ponder to dig for lands. Instead of Ponder I get to run more non-spell actions through Standstill:
    -cycle Shark
    -cycle Dragon & Eternalize
    -Saga constructs
    -Saga -> Retrofitter -> token spam
    -Saga -> Lantern -> draw
    -Heliod -> loop Saga or Shark
    -Azcanta flip & dig
    -3feri bounce
    Last edited by FTW; 04-04-2022 at 09:39 PM.

  9. #5449
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    2,477

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    I think the biggest question with that list whether or not Saga is worth it. There is always the issue with Saga being suicidal, but the real cost is the 6 slots it's costing you. You're down 1x Verdict, 1x Timeless, 1x FoN, and you don't have a value engine PW (Teferi is only going to draw 1 per 4 turns). You're losing the ability to stabilize & the ability to get ahead after you've stabilized.
    You're also missing Dress Down...and while that isn't a particularly good play vs DDFT's Daze playset, it's about as good as it's going to get. [If they ban Daze, it becomes much more reliable]

    In terms of inefficient slots, the second Sevinne's should live in the SB and the maindeck slot should go to Burning Wish. We're always interested in going up on 2cmc plays; particularly ones we don't care about resolving (if they FoW, you just get it back with SCM later).

    As far as the Saga vs SB goes, the only Saga-based card I really like in there is the Lotus Field (easy to find with Saga -> Map) juke to ignore Choke and Port. It also let's you ramp up the power if you want to, with cards you don't have to risk drawing if B Wish is in the main. Boiling Seas and Cataclysm seem fine if you've navigated the game into a Lotus Field.
    Needle isn't really playable vs Ending decks, and even if you Needle name Saga you still have issues if they tutor up Retro. Cage doesn't stop you from getting dino-bashed, and it's unreliable vs Uro b/c of Ending.

    Spikefield is still playable. Delver and DRC are both coming down as 1/1s, and exile starves them of delirium later. There is also Uro which goes straight to exile after first cast's sacrifice trigger. Remember also that an enemy Teferi player will likely respond to eteralized Timeless with playing Teferi & downtick, which conveniently puts Teferi on 1 loyalty. All of this on a card you can play as a land drop.
    For all the issues UWr/UWR Standstill/Landstill has, the ability to support the third Dragon and include Spikefield remain the biggest unique payoffs: not ever getting mana screwed while both also have text while Standstill is in play.

    We've been working at eliminating the mana variance for the better part of 20 years, so I don't like re-injecting it with Saga on principle. It also takes very few games with Daze picking up Tundra to realize that lost land drop strats don't end particularly well. There is however a lot of asymmetric shenanigans you can unlock with the Saga find Map -> Map find Lotus -> Burning Wish pathway. If we're adding Saga's variance, we need to see concomitant rise in power.
    ---
    If I'm playing a list like yours, I'm cutting Saga #3, Teferi #3, Azcanta, Retro, Ending #3, and then moving stuff around.

    Land (22 + 1)
    4x Strand
    4x Vista
    3x Island
    2x Plains
    1x Mountain
    2x Tundra
    1x Plateau (or Triome, but prefer Plateau)
    2x Saga
    1x Karakas
    1x Heliod
    1x Lotus Field
    1x Spikefield

    Creatures (5)
    3x Timeless
    2x SCM

    Spells (20)
    4x FoW
    4x BS
    4x Plow
    2x B Wish
    2x Ending
    2x FoN
    1x Sevinne's
    1x Verdict

    Artifact/Enchant (8)
    1x Map
    1x yard hate*
    4x Standstill
    2x Shark'nado

    PW (4)
    2x Teferi
    2x something**

    SB:
    3x REB effects
    1x By Force
    1x Verdict
    1x Sevinne's
    1x Ending (or CJ)
    1x flex (probably Cataclysm)
    1x Replenish or Humility
    1x Clasm
    1x Canonist
    2x Alpine Moon (or split with E Tutor)
    2x Surgical (or split with a Soul-Guide)

    *would rather draw cards while hating their GY. Given Sevinne's focus, want to use own GY, and want for ongoing GY challenge I would play Phyrexian Furnace or Relic.
    **I guess Nahiri Harbinger is still the best vs Pyroblast, even though she can't exile Kaldra... I at least like that you can't get got by Hullbreacher or Narset as the [+2] is a "may." There are worse things to blitz out than SCM or Dragon.

    Still have the Dress Down problem vs slots. Almost at the point of cut Heliod, add 2x Dress Down and play 61.

  10. #5450

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    The issue with Narset is that you need to have a second card like Court of Grace to cover long-term CA. Then you have this janky dies to Bolt/Pyroblast effect to cover the possibility that the opponent becomes the monarch.
    1. I'm not at all convinced that having some kind of phyrexian arena effect is totally necessary, although I agree it's a reasonable suggestion, and 2. you still haven't suggested what card should provide that effect even though I specifically prompted you for this. Like are you suggesting I play maindeck court of grace? Or something else?

    The threat of flash shark also makes casting monarch pretty awkward for the opponent I think. Narset is a good card, it's not just in the deck to shut down the opponent's monarch emblem.

    As far as Saga goes, you are not at all covered by Dress Down. They could make zero constructs and you are still so screwed by Saga tutor Needle name Shark'nado if you deployed a Standstill, or are trying to deploy a Standstill without having Ending in hand at that exact moment.
    If I have standstill in play and opp plays a saga, then the only realistic options to deal with it without giving my opponent 3 cards is something like boseiju their saga or wasteland their saga, and including those cards skews the construction of the deck way too much. In this situation there's no reason to consider the hypothetical of "even if the opponent doesn't make constructs" because why would they not? In most situations a dragon/shark token won't be able to race construct + shadowspear or construct + foundry, so I accept that my G1 vs saga is not very good, try not to cast SS vs them g1 and try to config the deck so that it can successfully play G2 and G3 while boarding standstills out OR by keeping them in and boarding into some moon or whatever

    ^scenarios like this or doing things like trying to play Replenish after the printing of Endurance are avoidable catastrophes. If you're walking into scenarios like this, you need to be changing Standstill to Iteration
    Avoidable how? You haven't proposed any solution...
    I 100% agree that "if standstill is backfiring against the meta too high % of the time then you should probably play EI instead" but where did anyone mention replenish?

    Can you please figure out how to have a conversation like a normal human

  11. #5451
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    2,477

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Let's make this simple for you @kombatkiwi:
    Saga could literally say nothing about making constructs at all, anywhere on the card. You'd still be screwed if you cast Standstill and they went Saga tutor Needle name Shark.

    That is a massive deckbuilding error. It's equal to things like playing 4x Replenish main in a Standstill deck after Endurance was printed. You avoid this by not killing yourself at the point of deckbuilding, because you already know how you're getting blown out - and there ain't a damn thing you can draw to change any of this no matter how much you Ponder.

    On Jayemdae Tome imitators: JTMS, Teferi 5cmc both have repeatable card draw. They also have the classic problem of dying to Pyroblast combined with not having a card to recur them; which is a structural deficit UWr Standstill decks cannot overcome with current card pool.

    You have railroaded yourself into a deck without a real backup plan. If they effortlessly cut your Standstill angle, you have a Narset that can activate for a max of 2 cards, and a Teferi than can draw 1 card every 4 turns...and you are going to be stuck on these walkers after giving them 3 cards...and then what? You board out Standstill vs Saga decks and have one of the most anemic CA suites in legacy? What's the point of Pondering and stabilizing if you can't turn the corner?

    The only way your style of deck works is b/c people are playing MindTwister (two banned cards rolled into one thanks to Narset passive + Day's). What they're doing with terrible CA + no ultimate PWs isn't real without banned effects. Never confuse Narset + Teferi Pw suite as being independently viable.

  12. #5452

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Again I agree with you that standstill matches up badly vs Saga and that I acknowledge that is a weakness with the way that the maindeck is configured

    My answer is "I am okay with this problem G1 because I think standstill is a good pick vs the rest of the meta and I can fix the issue in the bad matchups after sideboarding"

    Your answer is "just build your deck better 4head" -------> but how?

    Avoidable how? You haven't proposed any solution...
    Can you please figure out how to have a conversation like a normal human
    - Do you want to splash for Boseiju to kill my opp saga through a standstill
    - Do you want to play wasteland to kill opp saga through a standstill
    - Do you want to play maindeck alpine moon or some shit
    - Do you want to play maindeck sagas in the list to battle straight up vs opposing saga
    - Do you think the deck is actually unfixable and you're just being vague/annoying

    On Jayemdae Tome imitators: JTMS, Teferi 5cmc both have repeatable card draw. They also have the classic problem of dying to Pyroblast combined with not having a card to recur them; which is a structural deficit UWr Standstill decks cannot overcome with current card pool.
    Huh, it's almost like I also didn't put those cards in my deck for some deliberate reason. Perhaps you could suggest what you would do instead?

    The only way your style of deck works is b/c people are playing MindTwister (two banned cards rolled into one thanks to Narset passive + Day's). What they're doing with terrible CA + no ultimate PWs isn't real without banned effects. Never confuse Narset + Teferi Pw suite as being independently viable.
    I think there is probably more than a grain of truth to this (and I give you credit for managing to describe things in a relatively straightforward way for once) but again WHAT WOULD YOU DO INSTEAD??

    Like from this shell, what would your deck look like:

    Minimum 20 lands, 0 saga

    4 Plow
    4 Ending
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder (hard for you to accept I know, just consider it as a mental exercise in suboptimal deckbuilding)
    4 Standstill
    4 Force
    2 FON
    0 Burning Wish

    +14 blanks for you to fill in

  13. #5453
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    4,776

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Stepping in to translate....

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    Again I agree with you that standstill matches up badly vs Saga and that I acknowledge that is a weakness with the way that the maindeck is configured

    My answer is "I am okay with this problem G1 because I think standstill is a good pick vs the rest of the meta and I can fix the issue in the bad matchups after sideboarding"

    Your answer is "just build your deck better 4head" -------> but how?
    I think what Fox is saying is that by playing 4x Shark Typhoon (instead of 2 Shark 2 other wincon) and no lategame PW engines (Jace TMS, Big Teferi), you're losing even harder to lines like Saga -> Needle on Shark Typhoon, when Saga is already bad for you. You could mitigate that by playing fewer Sharks and diversifying threats. In general, 4 Shark seems excessive now with Timeless Dragons.

    In situations like that, cards like Ponder and Narset can only dig deeper, but the rest of the deck has a lack of things worth digging into that would save you. If Shark is shut off, digging into more copies of Shark won't help. Maybe you could avoid that by shaving Narset and 1-2 Sharks for some other engine that can take over the game. Jace dies to REB, but maybe it would still be better? Jace can at least take over a game, while Narset just digs and disrupts a bit.

    Fox, what do you think? Jace > Narset?

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    - Do you want to play maindeck sagas in the list to battle straight up vs opposing saga
    That was my attempt, although Fox pointed out vulnerabilities with running Saga. It does take up a lot of space and compromises the mana / land drops.

  14. #5454

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Stepping in to translate....

    I think what Fox is saying is that by playing 4x Shark Typhoon (instead of 2 Shark 2 other wincon) and no lategame PW engines (Jace TMS, Big Teferi), you're losing even harder to lines like Saga -> Needle on Shark Typhoon, when Saga is already bad for you. You could mitigate that by playing fewer Sharks and diversifying threats. In general, 4 Shark seems excessive now with Timeless Dragons.

    In situations like that, cards like Ponder and Narset can only dig deeper, but the rest of the deck has a lack of things worth digging into that would save you. If Shark is shut off, digging into more copies of Shark won't help. Maybe you could avoid that by shaving Narset and 1-2 Sharks for some other engine that can take over the game. Jace dies to REB, but maybe it would still be better? Jace can at least take over a game, while Narset just digs and disrupts a bit.

    Fox, what do you think? Jace > Narset?
    In the situation where you have no standstill in play and they get needle off saga you can just Prismatic Ending the Needle or bounce it with Teferi. The problem is that it doesn't matter what kind of diversified threat package you play in a situation where you DO have a standstill in play and your opponent plays a saga. If you have Jace in the deck instead of Narset you are still boned there regardless. Fox is acting like the Saga-Under-Standstill problem is some serious yet fixable flaw, but is not really giving any indication of how he would go about addressing it.

    I think I would always play 4 Shark before the first Dragon, I'm surprised you suggest to play a split (although I could agree that 6 total threats playable under standstill might be unnecessary / too many)

    That was my attempt, although Fox pointed out vulnerabilities with running Saga. It does take up a lot of space and compromises the mana / land drops.
    I agree with this, and while it might be possible to make it work it's not something I am currently interested in exploring

  15. #5455
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    4,776

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    I think I would always play 4 Shark before the first Dragon, I'm surprised you suggest to play a split (although I could agree that 6 total threats playable under standstill might be unnecessary / too many)
    Shark is pretty bad on turn 2-3. Dragon fixes mana so it's never dead. Shark's amazing late game, but wouldn't you rather only see it late than draw too many copies early? That was my rationale for a split instead of 4 copies.

    If you commit too much to Shark, like Fox said, it does also open you out to being hated out by Needle.


    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    The problem is that it doesn't matter what kind of diversified threat package you play in a situation where you DO have a standstill in play and your opponent plays a saga. If you have Jace in the deck instead of Narset you are still boned there regardless.
    Unless you have the PW in play before dropping Standstill. Then having a PW that can control the game could matter.

    Or you might be forced to crack your own Standstill to beat their Saga board. If so, a card like Jace can actually dig you out of the hole. With only cards like Narset and Ponder, you're basically never coming back, there's no way to make up the card disadvantage, so you're boned whether you try to disrupt Saga or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    If I'm playing a list like yours, I'm cutting Saga #3, Teferi #3, Azcanta, Retro, Ending #3, and then moving stuff around.
    I like the Burning Wish package and spending less space on Saga. Is Azcanta really not good enough, even with the other GY interactions?

    Is Dress Down that essential to fight Doomsday-Thassa?

    What do you think about Jace or Dack Fayden in the PW slot? Is losing to Pyroblast too much? Gideon?

  16. #5456
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    2,477

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    @kombatkiwi
    This is what UWr/UWR has going for it: highly uninteractive, low variance mana progression. It's so good that it's actually difficult to lose a game to mana screw - in a deck with no Ponder.
    This is the problem: you can't turn that mana into a reliable CA engine, and you can't gain life profitably (so you never escape having to throw blue cards away to counter Bolt).

    Now if you add Ponder, you gain nothing you weren't already overloaded on [mana reliability]...which leaves less space to deal with the problem areas. If you add Saga, like @FTW was thinking, you compromise the mana security (and then there are also slot issues).

    After all of that, you still have to give up 2 slots to Dress Down for Thassa...and this is kind of okay b/c it wipes constructs, and you just Ending the thing they tutor. The weak point is always going to be Saga finding Needle under Standstill if you're mono-cropping on Shark'nado. So there is a Saga issue you have to solve, and part of it can be having Otawara to bounce your own Standstill, in a deck with 6x Force effects (you pitch the Standstill you just picked up here), and adjusting your gameplan to a different strategy.

    We can continue the scenario and credit the opponent with a Saga, and you should have a pretty easy FoW; now it's time for you to attack on a different angle and turn the corner. You probably don't have 6 mana to hardcast Shark. You are not going to get there by cycling some small Sharks after killing their Needle. You have a wrath that will resolve, that's a good thing. Now you need to turn the corner...except your PWs are both unable to do this. Now would you have a shot to turn the corner with a JTMS or 5cmc Teferi? Probably not. What if it was Nahiri? Probably not...but as long as your only counteroffensive plan wasn't just a flaccid Teferi + Narset, there would be an amount of games you could win.

    ^The key to solving the hostile Saga problem is knowing how to navigate the puzzle:
    What happened -> did the tools in your decklist allow you to pivot -> is there a real gameplan after the pivot.

    Edit: It's not particularly challenging to target Saga if you have solved the puzzles it creates. You seem to want a quick fix @kombatkiwi, but the answer is that your deck's foundation is flawed. Ponder will not find a card that covers the fact that you've got no comprehensive plan for Saga starting at game 1...and that Ponder is going to reveal more cards that can't help you out of that scenario. You will see Plows and Endings and FoWs and Teferi and Narset alongside your Standstills in your top 3. At best, these can buy time...but that's pointless if you don't have a comprehensive/systematic way to say "no" to Saga in an absolute fashion.
    ---
    If you are looking at what the decklist looks like, just read up a few posts where I modified @FTW's list. I don't think Saga is really the answer in a UWr/UWR Standstill/Landstill deck, but I like my chances if I can at least play towards Lotus Field into a Burning Wish into a Cataclysm (all ignoring a Chalice on 1)...but...UWr/UWR still has primary deficits [having nothing to do with Saga] the card pool can't fix.

    So when your question is "what UWr/UWR Standstill/Landstill list would be optimal" the final answer is: it's not playable b/c UBw Landstill, UR Dreadstill, and UW Dreadstill all run better win %s b/c they don't suffer from the primary deficits of UWr/UWR. The answer is also that Ponder is the absolute worst card to turn to in UWr/UWR [unless you don't actually want to play the card Standstill, and you want to learn the MindTwister deck before wotc wakes up and bans Echo & probably Day's...which is about as useful in the long run as learning to master Ragavan or Oko or Wrenn or DRS or Breach or Lurrus or DHA or DTT or TC or CounterTop].

    The advantage of investing money and time Standstill-based decks is the decades-long stability and high resistance to being affected by FIRE design or power creep. So just scroll back a little in this thread until you find the UBw Landstill list, and add 2x Dress Down. Stop trying to reward UWr Narset/Day's cannons by playing their exact same deck, just worse, with the card Standstill. If you're not up to playing Dreadstill, it's time to tap 1UB and name Narset with Unmoored Ego, it's UBw Landstill time (and yes, you can name Saga too).

  17. #5457

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    The weak point is always going to be Saga finding Needle under Standstill if you're mono-cropping on Shark'nado.
    Opponent just playing a Saga under your standstill is always going to be a problem, I don't understand the hyperfixation on them tutoring needle with it

    So there is a Saga issue you have to solve, and part of it can be having Otawara to bounce your own Standstill, in a deck with 6x Force effects (you pitch the Standstill you just picked up here), and adjusting your gameplan to a different strategy.
    This is a reasonable answer to the question I have been asking but I don't think 1 Otawara is a consistent/reliable enough plan to "solve" the problem.

    We can continue the scenario and credit the opponent with a Saga, and you should have a pretty easy FoW; now it's time for you to attack on a different angle and turn the corner. You probably don't have 6 mana to hardcast Shark. You are not going to get there by cycling some small Sharks after killing their Needle. You have a wrath that will resolve, that's a good thing. Now you need to turn the corner...except your PWs are both unable to do this. Now would you have a shot to turn the corner with a JTMS or 5cmc Teferi? Probably not. What if it was Nahiri? Probably not...but as long as your only counteroffensive plan wasn't just a flaccid Teferi + Narset, there would be an amount of games you could win.
    Ok so I ask you what card would work and the answer is "Not Jace, not Teferi, and not Nahiri". amazing

    Edit: It's not particularly challenging to target Saga if you have solved the puzzles it creates. You seem to want a quick fix @kombatkiwi, but the answer is that your deck's foundation is flawed. Ponder will not find a card that covers the fact that you've got no comprehensive plan for Saga starting at game 1...and that Ponder is going to reveal more cards that can't help you out of that scenario. You will see Plows and Endings and FoWs and Teferi and Narset alongside your Standstills in your top 3. At best, these can buy time...but that's pointless if you don't have a comprehensive/systematic way to say "no" to Saga in an absolute fashion.
    Buy time to hardcast shark? It doesn't even sound unreasonable to me

    If you are looking at what the decklist looks like, just read up a few posts where I modified @FTW's list. I don't think Saga is really the answer in a UWr/UWR Standstill/Landstill deck, but I like my chances if I can at least play towards Lotus Field into a Burning Wish into a Cataclysm (all ignoring a Chalice on 1)...but...UWr/UWR still has primary deficits [having nothing to do with Saga] the card pool can't fix.
    Ok but by referring me to that list you are ignoring the 0 Saga 0 Burning Wish stipulation. You're never going to bring anyone on board with "play towards lotus field into burning wish into cataclysm"

    So when your question is "what UWr/UWR Standstill/Landstill list would be optimal" the final answer is: it's not playable b/c UBw Landstill, UR Dreadstill, and UW Dreadstill all run better win %s b/c they don't suffer from the primary deficits of UWr/UWR. The answer is also that Ponder is the absolute worst card to turn to in UWr/UWR [unless you don't actually want to play the card Standstill, and you want to learn the MindTwister deck before wotc wakes up and bans Echo & probably Day's...which is about as useful in the long run as learning to master Ragavan or Oko or Wrenn or DRS or Breach or Lurrus or DHA or DTT or TC or CounterTop].
    Just give me your ubw list then, most recent one is post 5408 in this thread, many of the points you make in that post seem to need re-examining post MH2 (not only adding 2 dressdown but also considering the fact that prismatic ending exists). Like if you think it's important to play Kaya over Narset (I don't even think this is a silly idea) you can just take a list like what I posted and switch the red mana for black. Playing Deluge and Dead of Winter in Murktide format seems super loose. Dropping Ending/Plow and playing Innocent Blood and Bloochief's Thirst just to support Drown 2x seems pretty silly. I'm not married to Jeskai but what is the core part of the esper deck's identity that you can't replicate in Jeskai? Kaya, Cling to Dust and Cranial Extraction?

    The advantage of investing money and time Standstill-based decks is the decades-long stability and high resistance to being affected by FIRE design or power creep. So just scroll back a little in this thread until you find the UBw Landstill list, and add 2x Dress Down. Stop trying to reward UWr Narset/Day's cannons by playing their exact same deck, just worse, with the card Standstill. If you're not up to playing Dreadstill, it's time to tap 1UB and name Narset with Unmoored Ego, it's UBw Landstill time (and yes, you can name Saga too).
    I don't think it's the same deck but worse, taking the good Jeskai cards and playing a Standstill package over the Hull/Day would appear to improve the delver matchup because you don't have:
    1) a 3 mana dude that gets bolted
    2) a 3 mana sorcery 'draw7' that you don't even really want to cast unless you have the other half of the A+B

    Is this free? No, because there are matchups where standstill the card is bad. But due to the high% of delver in the meta it seems like a reasonable decision. Again if you think there is some particular black card(s) that are really important to pair with standstill then I think an Esper deck can be easily justifiable. What I think is a big(ger) leap is straying from the core of Ponder/Brainstorm/Force/Force/Plow/Ending

  18. #5458
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    4,776

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Tested out Fox's modified UWR. 4-0.


    //Lands: 23
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Prismatic Vista
    3 Island
    2 Plains
    1 Mountain
    2 Tundra
    1 Plateau
    1 Karakas
    1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
    1 Lotus Field
    2 Urza's Saga
    1 Spikefield Hazard

    //Spells: 20
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Prismatic Ending
    2 Burning Wish
    2 Force of Negation
    1 Sevinne's Reclamation
    1 Supreme Verdict

    //Enchantments: 6
    4 Standstill
    2 Shark Typhoon

    //Creatures: 5
    2 Snapcaster Mage
    3 Timeless Dragon

    //Planeswalkers: 4
    2 Teferi, Time Raveler
    1 Nahiri, the Harbinger
    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    //Artifacts: 2
    1 Soul-Guide Lantern
    1 Expedition Map

    //Sideboard: 15
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 By Force
    1 Pyroclasm
    1 Cataclysm
    1 Supreme Verdict
    1 Prismatic Ending
    1 Sevinne's Reclamation
    1 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Alpine Moon
    1 Humility
    1 Ethersworn Canonist


    GW Depths (2-0)
    G1 I got lucky that they couldn't make a 2nd Marit Lage fast enough, still had to Wish for Verdict to stay alive.
    G2 Humility shut down 1st Marit Lage (killed by Spikefield before they found a disenchant!). After Surgical on Stage, it was easy to pull ahead.

    UR Delver (2-0)
    Walkers died to Pyroblast and Bolts, but Saga & Sharks eventually got there. Lotus Field let me go greedy early. I embarrassed Murktides with Soul-Guide Lantern and Teferi bounce.

    8cast (2-0)
    Had to blow all my resources to keep threats off the board, but then came back from nowhere with Standstill -> Heliod -> return Standstill -> return Saga -> return Standstill -> return Saga -> etc
    Did something similar in G2 with multiple Sharks

    Storm Brew... lol (2-1)
    G1 First loss! Wrecked by Defense Grid + Thoughtseize -> Infernal Tutor -> Peer -> Tendrils x 18 on turn 3
    G2 slammed T2 Standstill, T3 cycle Dragon, T4 Dragon forcing them to play into Standstill quickly, and I drew enough counters.
    G3 slammed T2 Standstill into Saga. Drew enough counters in time.

    The deck ran smoothly. Losing a land drop to Saga isn't great, but I could usually sequence it to avoid manascrew and optimize mana usage (21 non-Saga lands + 3 Timeless).

    I liked Jace, even though it died once to Pyroblast. Nahiri was harder for opponents to remove, but it did almost nothing. Not impressed.

    A significant number of wins came from Saga (or Saga + Shark). The power level is high, perhaps enough to reward the variance. I missed Retrofitter, which allowed even bigger snowballs.
    Saga -> 2 constructs -> Map -> Heliod -> Saga again -> more constructs -> Saga again -> more constructs
    Saga -> 2 constructs -> Retrofitter -> Servos (making Constructs bigger)
    Saga -> 2 constructs -> (opponent cracks Standstill) -> flashback Sevinne for Saga & Standstill -> constructs

    Most of that is done without casting spells. Can be done with Standstill, while keeping hand loaded with interaction. The big thing is that you're not stuck on 1/1 dorks. There are lines to churn out more bodies and grow the constructs. They can chump block, keep off attackers, or go beatdown. Compared to the old Landstill with Factories, I found the Saga plan a lot more explosive and versatile. Saga could be hated out, but if they're boarding into Saga hate vs Landstill, they're still wide open to other lines of attack.

    Lotus Field was strong in some matches, letting me be greedy vs Wasteland decks. It was a terrible draw early though. It also made midgame sequencing difficult, encouraging main phase tap outs and having to carefully plan which turn to go all-in on Lotus Field. I have mixed feelings about this card. I was never in a position where it made sense to go Lotus Field -> Burning Wish -> Cataclysm, because I could usually profit from keeping more lands out. Maybe it would come up in other game states when far behind.

    I didn't get to abuse the Burning Wish package much, usually getting Sevinne's, but I could see how you'd need it to bail out of certain board states. That flexibility seems strong, especially when it can just grab Sevinne's or PEnding the rest of the time.

    I still like Teferi. It can't pull you ahead in cards, but I missed having the Standstill+3feri lock as often. I relied heavily on Standstill to pull ahead. But that wasn't hard with Sevinne's and Heliod. In a couple games I made 4-6 Standstills.
    Last edited by FTW; 04-09-2022 at 01:25 PM.

  19. #5459

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Hi guys I would like to know if there was a Landstill discord ?
    I make and sell dragon rings !

  20. #5460
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    2,477

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    @FTW nice work on the 4-0. Just reading your report you're getting use out of the tools. The whole reason for B Wish is that there really isn't a better way to efficiently use 2 mana, and that's the mana value mainly being targeted in the hunt for playables. You waffle a little bit on different effects. I would keep the Lotus in; it's one slot and it shuts down Wasteland, Port, and allows the basically free option to cheese with Cataclysm.
    On Retro, the card is just so awful vs Ending; at some point you have to say "I'm done losing a land and getting my constructs wiped by Dress Down into Ending the Retro" - at some point you have to be able to recover velocity.

    Nahiri was really hurt by Prismatic Ending soft-banning Klothys from the format. Klothys was a diversity killer, mono-cropping decks onto itself as the payoff/top-end, generating a loses to Nahiri meta. It's also been harder to justify slots on Yidaro or a SB 13/13 Emmy for Nahiri ult. Unfortunately, Wandering Emporer was a flop, the card needed to read:
    [+1] dude gets +1 power & lifelink until next turn.
    [-1] dude
    [-2] kill dude or exile kaldra + draw a card
    Just kinda pointless to use blue PWs [outside Sevinne's range] for value right now...like I'd even play Emporer if it had that design above without flash.
    ---
    @kombatkiwi Saga should not be a Saga surprise after an opponent takes their first turn as they should open with things like Mox Diamond, Mox Opal, Tomb, artifact land, Painter staples, etc. Against these, you should know not to play a Standstill on 2, and have a deck that wipes constructs [Verdict, Dress Down], deals with the tutor target [Ending, Kaya 3cmc if UBw], and has PWs/value pieces that take over the game (until hardcast Shark comes online).
    If someone is playing slow, stealthy Saga they can't outpace Otawara bouncing your own Standstill. Having the Otawara isn't a reliable plan, but it's at least something for these corner cases.

    Now there's all kinds of ways Saga games can go, but you absolutely must not be submitting a list that gets massacred by something so simple as Saga -> Needle quad laser Shark'nado. This is horrifically bad to have 8 cards (Standstill and Shark) clogging up hands. Regardless of what deck you play in legacy, avoid 8-dead-carding yourself. You have to set the bar higher for a Saga user to one-shot you with dead card variance - we do not yolo with 4x Sharks. Add different card names, e.g. Timeless, Otawara, Saga, etc.

    On the recursive, or non-blue, payoff permanent for UWr, it doesn't exist at this time. This plus no playable lifegain is the problem with UWr. We are in a holding pattern. We know exactly what the card needs to do. We will identify it the second it is spoiled and buy it before modern catches on ruins the price. But yes, this is why despite the amazing mana of UWr, it's the least competitive of the serious Standstill-using decks.

    On UBw Landstill, got zero problems gaining tons of life. Have lost 1 match to Murktide, and the only reason is that I didn't pay 13 for Deluge, which would have won. Murktide existing has vastly improved Standstill's meta position, b/c Standstill is built to not die to Goyf. You best believe I will Deluge with impunity vs Bolt-Delver on the back of Cling, Kaya, and Rider + kill spells that put dudes in the Cling zone. DRC is also a joke when it comes to pressuring life total vs UBw; nothing makes me happier than obliterating Daze with land drops at the low low cost of 1 life per turn.

    Saga is certainly an annoyance for UBw, but it plays Wasteland and it's not hard to change Ending to March (we still have PW kill spells). So again it's just a question of what 2 things get cut for the 2x Dress Down. MH2 has failed to generate changes more significant than this. Main thing this deck was waiting on was the inevitable Ragavan ban. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3736016#online

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)