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Thread: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

  1. #5421
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    The main point of Kaheera is that it allows you to free roll a 1x FoV in the board regardless of your colors; just pay whenever you're in the mood to 2-for-1. More of a RiP/Helm type of tactic though.

    At some point you're going to have to choose between Cast Out with Replenish or no Replenish at all or red splash with 1-2x Burning Wish/SB Blasts + 1x Replenish in SB. The deck is a little too slow around the 3 mana mark; while it may cast a 3cmc spell it's not really able to get ahead and leave something that the opponent has to deal with (your Teferi lacks a [-3] Astrolabe, Thirst just draws and will rarely find 2 things to good enough to bin right into untap Replenish, and Dovin's Acuity kinda just sits there). The moment they challenge Shark'nado (which can be as simple as Cling to Dust) you're going to struggle to recover any ground with Replenish.

    While Cast Out is a pretty dubious card, it's kind of mandatory with Replenish...and you're throwing away your SnT matchup without it (and getting worse vs REB and Veil at the same time). On E Tutor, it cycles now, and you get to choose between Astrolabe [fewer mulls, combo with Teferi] and being a 5th copy of Shark'nado. Ponder isn't going to draw you into better plans with Replenish in the mix; you're falling behind by stopping to cast it when it could have been a mana-fixing, consistency positive combo piece. You don't want to sit there at the 3-5 mana point sinkhole'ing a mana [back into Daze range] to Ponder when you should be directly pursuing a way to win. The planning phase was many turns before this point, and you have combo pieces able to do all the heavy lifting early by making sure the mana development stayed on pace [even if the opening mana was white] without de-railing the train. It all comes back to Replenish; if you're going to do it, you really have to hit the gas pedal.

  2. #5422

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    At some point you're going to have to choose between Cast Out with Replenish or no Replenish at all or red splash with 1-2x Burning Wish/SB Blasts + 1x Replenish in SB.
    Yes, at the moment I am leaning toward no-replenish. (Although the burning wish idea is kind of cute lol)

    The deck is a little too slow around the 3 mana mark; while it may cast a 3cmc spell it's not really able to get ahead and leave something that the opponent has to deal with (your Teferi lacks a [-3] Astrolabe, Thirst just draws and will rarely find 2 things to good enough to bin right into untap Replenish, and Dovin's Acuity kinda just sits there).
    Maybe there is some misconception with how the deck plays. In my experience this is like a super reactive draw-go kind of control deck. You have removal and counters and card draw, eventually you remove/counter all their stuff then draw more cards so you can keep doing that and then you play a big cantrip shark and ride it to victory. So you don't really need to get ahead by playing a threat on turn 3. You want to leave up mana so that you can Thirst/Negation/Veto. The only matchups you need the Replenish help are the control matchups where they have good removal and can keep up on cards until the lategame so the plan of protecting 1 big shark is less viable.

    The moment they challenge Shark'nado (which can be as simple as Cling to Dust) you're going to struggle to recover any ground with Replenish.
    This could be an issue but cling/surgical is just another spell you can counter, if you have to.

    On E Tutor, it cycles now, and you get to choose between Astrolabe [fewer mulls, combo with Teferi] and being a 5th copy of Shark'nado. Ponder isn't going to draw you into better plans with Replenish in the mix; you're falling behind by stopping to cast it when it could have been a mana-fixing, consistency positive combo piece.
    You don't need to -1 yourself to find Typhoon, the deck doesn't need it in a hurry. Again the deck does not have "combo" pieces, it's not a "combo" deck. Just think of replenish like a 3W Jace. E tutor is still card disadvantage even if you're searching for a thing that draws cards. You can't say that Etutor + Astro leads to fewer mulligans, if you etutor for astro then you essentially did mulligan, and I'd much rather spend 1 mana turn 1 on ponder than on labe

  3. #5423
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    You can't cast Ponder off of white mana, but you can E Tutor for Astro or cast Astro from hand or cycle Cast Out into blue sources. There's no reason to mull away winning hands, lose to Tundra in hand, and/or lose b/c Stifle hit your Fetch. If you have a serviceable hand, you do whatever you can to not mulligan with colorless lands, shame island [Sanctuary], Tundra, and multiple Plains waiting to ruin your second hand, turning the keep 7 into chain mulligans - these are avoidable losses, which Ponder won't help you avoid. After this, you do whatever you can to avoid killing yourself by Fetching Tundra. Death by mana is the single most avoidable source of unnecessary losses in Standstill, and it is significant.

    You have Teferi in your deck (which you can barely use), Astro can help cast him while also avoiding mulls, and Astro is the only thing worth using the [-3] on (Dovin's Acuity bouncing is too slow to rely on, and off-curve). You will recoup any CA you think you've lost, and if that's not good enough, you can also transmute E Tutor into a Standstill's draw 3 when you're not needing to kill multiple dudes with Tutor on Porphyry Nodes. Taking a little time off doesn't matter if you're feeding into a larger strategy, and that's where Ponder fails; it's not even helping the early mana nor minimizing mulligans versus the combo plan of Replenish. It's also pretty embarrassing to be drawn above 8 cards by an EoT Standstill crack and be looking at a sorcery that should either be an E Tutor or a Cast Out (which has flash); this is just lost CA due to flawed construction.

    If you're playing Ponder (so not a Replenish build), you're saying that your main concern is fixing by turn 4 for Verdict [and finding a copy of your 2x Verdict] in a deck with far less white stuff going on. Such decks also have more time to do whatever with Snapcaster choosing between looking for land #4 or spamming Plow from yard.

    You may try to play draw-go with Replenish, but it's not control. You are dying to Veil on the stack, lacking hard answers to Oko (or any PW for that matter), your Teferi is barely useful, and your deck is definitely threatened by GY hate. You're enchantment-reanimator the moment Replenish comes into the mix. When you accept auto-losses to common and predictable strategies, calling it control is just a meme. Your SB isn't transforming the meme into hard control either; you'd be boarding down on white while boarding into losing harder to Pyroblast.

    If you want to cut Replenish and go harder on control with PWs and Verdicts, that's fine [you ofc can't ever beat Vial]...but no matter how many Blasts you put in the SB you're still dead to Oko and the hasted PW-killing AstroElk. UW/UWr is a really bad way to try and play hard control unless Oko is banned or they reverse the companion rules and unban Lurrus (which cuts Oko use down by ~50-75%). If you want to meme play ReplenishStill, if you want to play the best form of UWstill play Dreadstill, and if you want to keep losing to zero skill Oko/FIRE cards play UW/UWr Standstill/Landstill. If you want to play the same type of style as UW/UWr Standstill/Landstill, try UBw Landstill as it solves the lifegain, Oko, and Veil/REB problems to a higher degree.

    Edit: we also need to break this habit of people playing Mystic Sanctuary with nothing to put on top but a 1-for-1, and then pretending it's somehow more amazing than cycling an E-Tutor on Astro or Shark'nado. It's the same thing, except Teferi can't [-3] on a Sanctuary and it ruins the manabase.

  4. #5424

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    You can't cast Ponder off of white mana, but you can E Tutor for Astro or cast Astro from hand or cycle Cast Out into blue sources. There's no reason to mull away winning hands, lose to Tundra in hand, and/or lose b/c Stifle hit your Fetch. If you have a serviceable hand, you do whatever you can to not mulligan with colorless lands, shame island [Sanctuary], Tundra, and multiple Plains waiting to ruin your second hand, turning the keep 7 into chain mulligans - these are avoidable losses, which Ponder won't help you avoid. After this, you do whatever you can to avoid killing yourself by Fetching Tundra. Death by mana is the single most avoidable source of unnecessary losses in Standstill, and it is significant.
    If you cast E Tutor for astrolabe and then cast astrolabe you went -1 cards and spent 2 mana just to fix your colours. If you have a 7 card hand without any blue sources then you can take a mulligan which fixes your colours by spending no mana and going -1 card.

    You have Teferi in your deck (which you can barely use), Astro can help cast him while also avoiding mulls, and Astro is the only thing worth using the [-3] on (Dovin's Acuity bouncing is too slow to rely on, and off-curve).
    I agree that teferi is not that good in the deck, I wrote that in the first post. I don't think a 1-of astrolabe helps it very much and would rather cut/trim teferi than significantly overhaul the deck trying to make teferi good

    you can also transmute E Tutor into a Standstill's draw 3 when you're not needing to kill multiple dudes with Tutor on Porphyry Nodes. Taking a little time off doesn't matter if you're feeding into a larger strategy, and that's where Ponder fails; it's not even helping the early mana nor minimizing mulligans versus the combo plan of Replenish.
    Both E tutor and Ponder "Take a little time off", they both cost 1 mana. (Etutor arguably makes you take more time off because you need an extra draw 1 before you get access to the new card). The difference is that E-tutor puts you down a card, and if the thing that you're searching for isn't going to seriously turn the game around (or it's a matchup where whatever you searched for has a high chance of being countered) then that -1 card is a big liability.

    Of course cantrips help with early mana lol, I don't understand what point you are trying to make at all there

    It's also pretty embarrassing to be drawn above 8 cards by an EoT Standstill crack and be looking at a sorcery that should either be an E Tutor or a Cast Out (which has flash); this is just lost CA due to flawed construction.
    In theory yes, but this is almost magical-christmas land territory; if your standstill has sat in play for that many turns then probably you will be ahead anyway when this happens, I don't think the deck needs to be built with a greater focus on maximizing the payoff in this situation if it makes getting to that situation less likely

    If you're playing Ponder (so not a Replenish build), you're saying that your main concern is fixing by turn 4 for Verdict [and finding a copy of your 2x Verdict] in a deck with far less white stuff going on. Such decks also have more time to do whatever with Snapcaster choosing between looking for land #4 or spamming Plow from yard.
    This is a pretty wild claim, I note that RUG delver decks also play ponder without playing 2 copies of supreme verdict and I believe storm decks are also in a similar situation?

    You may try to play draw-go with Replenish, but it's not control. You are dying to Veil on the stack, lacking hard answers to Oko (or any PW for that matter), your Teferi is barely useful, and your deck is definitely threatened by GY hate. You're enchantment-reanimator the moment Replenish comes into the mix. When you accept auto-losses to common and predictable strategies, calling it control is just a meme. Your SB isn't transforming the meme into hard control either; you'd be boarding down on white while boarding into losing harder to Pyroblast.

    If you want to cut Replenish and go harder on control with PWs and Verdicts, that's fine [you ofc can't ever beat Vial]...but no matter how many Blasts you put in the SB you're still dead to Oko and the hasted PW-killing AstroElk. UW/UWr is a really bad way to try and play hard control unless Oko is banned or they reverse the companion rules and unban Lurrus (which cuts Oko use down by ~50-75%). If you want to meme play ReplenishStill, if you want to play the best form of UWstill play Dreadstill, and if you want to keep losing to zero skill Oko/FIRE cards play UW/UWr Standstill/Landstill. If you want to play the same type of style as UW/UWr Standstill/Landstill, try UBw Landstill as it solves the lifegain, Oko, and Veil/REB problems to a higher degree.
    Oko is definitely a relative weakness and the deck probably should to be tuned to respect that (e.g. replace the D Sphere with a nonblue option or play another Veto somewhere or a CJ etc). Veil is annoying for any blue deck (and maybe moreso for this one due to the reliance on veto) but the meta seems to have settled in a place where it isn't widely played in large numbers.

    When I say cut replenish I don't mean overhaul the entire deck, I just mean cut 1-2 copies of the card replenish and replace it with 1-2 copies of something else. The rest of the list works fine without it. You seem eternally hamstrung by your eagerness to squash any new idea into one of your pre-existing mental bins ('ponder != replenish'), which can be a fine tool to simplify decision making around established concepts but when dealing with new ideas it seems to lead you to some pretty tenuous conclusions

    Edit: we also need to break this habit of people playing Mystic Sanctuary with nothing to put on top but a 1-for-1, and then pretending it's somehow more amazing than cycling an E-Tutor on Astro or Shark'nado. It's the same thing, except Teferi can't [-3] on a Sanctuary and it ruins the manabase.
    Casting enlightened tutor is card disadvantage but fetching a Mystic Sanctuary isn't, do you really not understand this? I agree that putting Sanctuary in your manabase has costs associated with it but the two cards are not really comparable

  5. #5425
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    First things first, when I'm discussing Ponder I'm talking about Standstill decks. Other decks need Ponder to compensate for ambitious 3+ color plans, particularly in low land decks which will otherwise struggle to hit land #2 on turn #2 reliably. The dominant concern in UW Standstill/Landstill is not having land #2 on turn #2, but rather avoiding mulligans b/c your opening hand isn't able to produce dependable access to blue mana. This is worth repeating: when you have higher land counts, the second land drop isn't in question; instead color fixing is the early game question. In the case of Verdict, the cmc & fixing requirements are so extreme, on a spell so important, that Ponder can still be useful.

    You don't get to play high variance cards like Standstill without mana & mulligan security. If can't count on your mana, you can't make turns-long decisions. If you can't enact those turns-long plans, you die over and over b/c you drew Standstills you can't deploy - this is a vicious cycle that is largely avoidable by allowing both colors to get the other online. On mulligans, a deck with Standstill usually plays 4x FoW and 2x FoN - so when you construct the deck it's important to do whatever you can to make as many hands as possible keepable. There's another vicious cycle here where mulligans not only punish 6 Force effects, but also risk generating new hands with bad mana (Tundra, Sanctuary, Heliod, Plains); so now the Force effects, Standstills you can't cast, and unreliable mana all combo together against you, resulting in a loss that could have been avoided by deliberately designing a deck to not mull itself to death.

    Ponder requires blue...but if your hand already had reliable blue mana, you don't really have problems b/c you can wait out the white (with all 8 Fetches pointed at basic Plains) through the combination of Brainstorm/Typhoon cantripping and free countermagic into jamming a Standstill. If you're adding Ponder to help blue find white even harder, you're kinda beating a dead horse while missing the main issue: white needs help finding blue, b/c this has always been the main source where loss to mulligan comes from. You really don't want to dice with death when playing the "hope I don't mull into this quarter of my manabase" subgame.
    --
    On Teferi, you can't really afford to not play it. There will be too many games where the weakness to yard hate requires Teferi passive to protect Shark'nado (and Heliod). You also need Teferi as the Daze neutralizer on curve, which aids Replenish followups. More generally we have focused mana agenda we can count on teaming up with a PW whose passive reduces undesirable interaction, so that in a deck with Standstill we have achieved a more secure ability to follow a turns-long plan. This is not a place for instant gratification where Ponder goes off and finds 1-card combo Uro/Dreadhorde/Oko; we're balancing multiple pieces/effects over long time periods to sustain gamestates where Standstill off the top isn't self-crippling.

    In addition to reducing mulligans, that single Astrolabe/E Tutor adds that value edge which rewards you for playing the Teferi you're forced to play. You're attacking mulligans, mana security and hedging vs late game stagnation by turning Teferi into Gush. So again, everything going on is about establishing the ability to enact that plan where Standstill off the top can be cast.

    That E Tutor can do other things as well, like doubling up effective copies of SB cards. The real key though is that what it finds probably goes to the graveyard eventually; where in the context of Replenish, we can refer to that card as being effectively Entomb'd. An important concept to understand if you're playing enchantment reanimator.
    --
    On Mystic Sanctuary, the Shame Island: it kills opening hands (the killer of Standstill), and can't even begin to be justified unless your deck is packing a necro target that generates CA or straight-up wins the game (in UW that's either a wrath, AK-type, Replenish, or Entreat). If you have such a spell to target and somehow get to 3 Islands, a Fetch, and haven't been stuck with Shame Island in hand...let's just take a moment and appreciate that we're trying to make turns-long plans while ticking those boxes...you better have something better to do than Noxious Revival a cantrip or a Plow. There's a name for putting a cantrip back on top of your deck, drawing it and casting to see three things: Mirri's Guile.

    When you actively want an effect like Astrolabe on board or to self-Entomb a Shark'nado via cycling, you have a higher ceiling than anything Shame Island could be doing when it's rebuying a 1-for-1. Discard E Tutor for a cantripping target = draw the thing you want (a thing that goes in play) and draw a brand new card; that's discard 1 card, get 2 things. When people go Sanctuary into a 1-for-1 necro, they discard a card [land drop], then they don't get a thing that goes into play, and instead choose one of their best 3 cards or kill one enemy dude. When you're finding a thing that goes into play & cantrips, and there's a purpose behind it (like not mulling, giving Teferi a [-3] target, or a Shark token and an Entomb'd 6 drop), you're not losing resources.
    -- [^Everything up here is more about ReplenishStill]
    I've played more UW Landstill than most, and did all the work tuning it from Teferi [5cmc] through to the banning of Wrenn and replacement by Oko. The straight-up Landstill/Standstill UW/UWr deck isn't good enough b/c unfortunately Oko doesn't cost 2 mana - and that means you've got no response b/c Spell Snare spamming isn't going to work. Adding red for Blasts doesn't work either, b/c you can't afford to attempt the counter mode, as you will lose the Blast to Veil and then be forced to accept the fact that your PW is dead to a hasted 3/3. The mana-requiring 1-2cmc counterspell for the maindeck of UW/UWr is leagues worse than Drown.

    When you talk about cutting Replenish and playing straight-up, it's just not going to work against Oko. It's certainly nice that you have an ability to do stuff like kill a TNN with Nodes, but it's a card that eventually fails in multiples due to having 0 life (the delay forces you to take hits). You're at this nasty crossroads where you need Verdict more than Nodes spam, even though it means you'll never beat Aether Vial. For all the Nodes, Thirst, and Dovin's Acuity stuff going on, it really doesn't help vs Oko. For this you need to look to Replenish and Cast Out over Ponder. It's really not fun to know that no matter what your top 3 cards are off Ponder, they will all say "you still lose to Oko."

    Edit: if you're playing turbo-meme 4x Replenish/3-4x Lay Claim nonsense, a few Teferi will never save you from the blowouts you're going to suffer. Such a build is all derp all the time, and while it has Standstill in it, it barely qualifies as playing a Standstill deck.

  6. #5426
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    I'm not sure if this is interresting to anyone but it has been very strong in my limited testing so far. Retrofitter Foundry is extremely powerful with Standstill and acts as an instant speed CMC1 Elspeth for the deck. It is undeniably stronger than Myth Realized. It also combos with Teferi for a quick bounce + replay as a 1 mana untap, and with Mutavault for a quick 4/4 and/or as a form of Wasteland protection. However, it is possible that Mishra is still better than Muta simply because it blocks Arcanist and Thalia.

    I originally tested UB for Drown in the Loch, then it became clear a red splash was needed for SB blasts. Eventually I moved away from black because StP is crucial for the exile effect and Council's Judgment is an important catch-all that the deck needs to fix certain board states. I had Verdicts in the main, then board but without TNN in the meta I had no use for a CMC4 sorcery wipe. Adding 2 Bolts to the SB instead gave me important instant removal at CMC1 for Snap abuse and T2 Standstill openers against Aggro on the play. I tested Hall of Helliod for some Shark and Standstill recursion. While it was very strong when it worked, it was more often win-more and I would preffer another manland or Ponder instead. I've cut down from 4 Ponders to 2 in favor of a full playset of manlands in order to favor natural land drops because I would often be unable to fully abuse an early Standstill on an empty board when toping into cantrips. Furthermore, I ended up moving away from is Spell Pierce. While really strong when it works out, I would almost always preffer a hard counter given the current meta. Pierce is great against Oko from RUG but useless against all the Aggro decks in the meta, barely useful against the popular Combo decks (Hogaaks, Elves, and Depths) and easily played around by SnT and Storm. Premier Control decks using Oko instead of Jace, Coatl instead of Snap, and relying more on Uro than anything else really makes Spell Pierce lackluster without a strong aggro presence.

    List:

    Creature (3)
    3 Snapcaster Mage

    Spells (22)
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Spell Snare
    2 Counterspell
    2 Force of Negation
    4 Force of Will
    2 Ponder
    2 Council's Judgment

    Other (12)
    3 Retrofitter Foundry
    4 Standstill
    3 Shark Typhoon
    2 Teferi, Time Raveler

    Lands (23)
    4 Mishra's Factory / Mutavault
    4 Prismatic Vista
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Scalding Tarn
    2 Tundra
    1 Volcanic Island
    4 Island
    2 Plains

    Sideboard
    1 Containment Priest
    1 Izzet Staticaster
    2 Lightning Bolt
    2 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Seal of Cleansing
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Rest in Peace
    1 Blood Moon
    1 Mountain


    In terms of matchups I found most Aggro decks to be quite positive without any wipes with the exception of big eldrazi decks using Cavern of Souls. Having multiple ways to switch on the offense is very important here, so is pumping out 4/4's ASAP (nudge to Mutavault).

    Oko/Uro Control decks are quite interresting and reward tight plays. Yes they have something like 2 copies of Veil in the board for some strong protection but we have Retro to match Oko, Blasts and Judgment for anything that slips through, Snap over Coatl and manlands instead of Astrolabes. We have answers to all their win conditions and we can more reliably play draw-go. A single Standstill will swing the game in our favor with about the same impact as a Veil on a counter war. Personally I find this matchup in our favor. The toughest variants to play against pack Decay and Teferi.

    TLDR: Don't sleep on Retrofitter. It is the draw-go GOAT.
    Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
    Get it...? Ass, u, me?

    ... ffs I was trying to be funny...

  7. #5427
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Some things in the list @Qweerios, I agree with the assessment of Spell Pierce; there‘s nothing more dubious than playing for a long game and shooting yourself in the foot with soft permission that will always be -1 card drawn in a long game. The combination of Spell Snare and Counterspell is however, quite poor; and it doesn‘t really get any better if you worked in Veto. Nothing to be done here though, all the 1-2cmc mana-requiring counter options are just pretty awful.

    2x CJ is too much, and it‘s coming at the cost of wraths and onboard value engines (PWs) and Sevinne‘s [easily a top 3 reason to play white]. The lack of lifegain is also standing out in the list, and we have to note 10x Fetch as increasing this weakness. On the lands, there‘s no reason to kill yourself with Tundra more than you have to (copies down to 1x). The lack of Karakas is pretty damaging in the Depths, SnT, Reanimator, Gaak, and Uro matchups.

    The colorless lands are fairly concerning. While you can at least utilize Teferi‘s passive, a big part of manlands is being able to play big Teferi (5cmc), going [+1] and untapping an elk-stopping 3/3 blocker [Factory]. The other thing about 5cmc Teferi is that he‘s a large part of justifying 2cmc counterspells (resolve PW, plus, represent permission); unlike Drown you can‘t come back to a problem that snuck through with cards like Counterspell/Veto and Snare. There are significant drawbacks to Mutavault in this regard [can‘t block as a 3/3 without help from Retro], and Plague Engi is going to be especially annoying. There‘s a lot of conflict here between colorless things, double mana pips, and needing multiple pieces to assemble a Mutavault-transmuting plan. The net effect exposes Teferi (3cmc) pretty heavily, since it‘s pretty hard to justify chumping to defend, and you can‘t really transition to a bigger play (like Teferi 5cmc and a board reset).

    When you start going this heavily into colorless plans we really do have to compare your plan to that of UW Dreadstill, which has a much higher quality colorless outlets, a responsible approach to supporting Verdict, lifegain solved (StP = gain 12), a better plan vs nonsense (just kill quick with a 12/12), and is much more highly specialized around Teferi passive. The janky 1/1 generator that maybe makes some 4/4s at the cost of stable mana and has to let Oko resolve, then destroy him, and then still deal with the 3/3s has a lot of holes. For everything you‘re doing, you could play with more secure mana and hide the token generating battery on Heliod‘s. I just don‘t see the benefit of adding Retro/Muta variance for a level of power below that of 1-card combo Oko you‘ll need to compete against.

    In terms of the SB, E Tutor should be in the main; you do need be able to unite Standstill with the token source (Shark or Retro) going into turn 2; there is no synergistic benefit to having Retro and Shark (or multiple Retro) in hand over just one of them and a Standstill. That scenario requires huge amounts of mana, and the end result is that Oko is still out-pacing you. Blood Moon is actively self-crippling, change to Alpine Moon. Cage is a wildly unreliable magic card, and you‘re a bit light on ways to stop SnT with an slew of dead cards (StP, Snare, Retro, CJ = 11 cards want to come out). For SB mapping you‘re going to need 2 Ashiok (vs Dreadhorde, REB recursion, Uro, GSZ, yard combo, DDFT, SnT‘s Firemind/Summons/Intuition/Call). You also need a better plan and mapping vs Vial; so another CP to help with the 11 card problem vs SnT, while also hitting Vial. There are other problems in the board, but you can really minimize these by fixing that SnT problem. To beat OmniTell‘s Veil spam you‘re running into SB space issues [looking at Bolt and Izzet] as Veil+SnT requires things like Humility and Deafening/Ethersworn.

  8. #5428
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Modified a Jordan Aisoka special (AisokaMTG - the vods are great), because sometimes you want to watch the world burn. Jordan's list was a good deal different, whereas this deck is looking to cheese Path of Mettle, because reasons.

    Prismatic Vista x4
    Flooded Strand x4
    Scalding Tarn x1
    Snow-Island x4
    Snow-Mountain x1
    Snow-Plains x1
    Volcanic Island x2
    Tundra x1
    Hall of Heliod's Generosity x1
    Karakas x1 [[20 slots]]

    Lutri, the Spellchaser x1
    Chandra, Acolyte of Flame x2
    Teferi, Time Raveler x2 [[5 slots]]

    Standstill x4
    Shark Typhoon x3
    Path of Mettle//Metzali, Tower of Triumph x2
    Humility x1 [[10 slots]]

    Force of Will x4
    StP x4
    Brainstorm x4
    Spikefield Hazard x2
    Silundi Vision x2
    Force of Negation x2
    Sevinne's Reclamation x2
    Burning Wish x2
    Pyroblast x1
    E Tutor x1
    Astrolabe x1 [[25 slots]]

    Companion: Kaheera, the Orphanguard

    SB (14 others):
    Force of Vigor x1
    Decree of Justice x1
    Ruination x1
    Supreme Verdict x1
    Meltdown x1
    Cave-In x1
    Replenish x1
    Alpine Moon x1
    Stony Silence x1
    Deafening Silence x1
    Pyroblast x1
    REB x1
    Surgical x2

    Option for something like Council's Judgement or a classic like Slice and Dice in board. Yard hates can be changed, but prefer to keep them one-sided; Jordan was running Phyrexian Furnace which is actually pretty good at filling the role and combos nicely with Sevinnes. Crpyt probably safer, but Furnace really captures the burning flavor. As always Blessed Alliance is always this card with lifegain you can almost add, but doesn't quite make the cut. If anti-Klothys desired consider Celestial Purge or Nahiri, the Harbinger.

    The only real goal here is to have fun and play oh so much more magic than your opponent could ever dream of. The advantage always goes to the person with the elemental of surprise. All hail Lutri, the true king of legacy. Also wtf happens when you cast Sevinne's from yard and first target is Lutri....you don't get 3 things back do you? I really feel like you do.

  9. #5429
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Also wtf happens when you cast Sevinne's from yard and first target is Lutri....
    1. You target Lutri with Reclamation
    2. Assuming it resolves, Lutri enters the battlefield
    3. Lutri doesn't trigger
    4. You put Reclamation's copy on the stack

  10. #5430
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryBacon View Post
    1. You target Lutri with Reclamation
    2. Assuming it resolves, Lutri enters the battlefield
    3. Lutri doesn't trigger
    4. You put Reclamation's copy on the stack
    Edit: nvm "if you cast" on top of when ETBs. So you have to necro Lutri, tap Karakas, and then cast Lutri to re-copy lol.

  11. #5431
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Edit: nvm "if you cast" on top of when ETBs. So you have to necro Lutri, tap Karakas, and then cast Lutri to re-copy lol.
    If you reanimate Lutri with Reclamation, Lutri enters the battlefield before you even choose a target for the copy of Reclamation. There's no window to use Karakas yet so you have to wait for the copy to be put on the stack. Then you can Karakas Lutri, play it again on top of the Reclamation copy already on the stack. Doing so, you can copy the orignal Reclamation I believe, since it hasn't finished resolving yet. To be confirmed though I'm no judge. The difference being that copying the original Reclamation lets you trigger the copy as well, while copying a copy doesn't.

  12. #5432
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Now that Oko is banned the deck can be played again. Three competitive approaches are acceptable:
    -Teferi + Karn Landstill (better as UBw)
    -Teferi 3&5cmc + 4x Portent + 3x Terminus Landstill. You can throw away your matchup vs Vial and play 2x Ponder 2x Verdict.
    -Teferi 3&5cmc + spell land (Spikefield Hazard) + 2x Verdict Standstill

    Far less competitive builds include JTMS, Mentor, Myth Realized. Incorrect build choices include Shame Island (Mystic Sanctuary), outside of Burning Wish/ReplenishStill, and Moat. Again: Moat is wrong. We play Humility. Save your money.

    Current build of TNMTstill:
    Lands [25]
    4x Vista
    4x Strand
    1x Tarn (or Mesa if you want to gamble)
    4x Island
    2x Plains
    1x Mountain
    1x Tundra
    1x Volc
    1x Karakas
    1x Heliod
    2x Spikefield Hazard
    2x Wasteland
    1x Azcanta (so like 24.5 land)

    Dudes [4]
    2x SCM
    2x Yidaro, Wandering Monster

    PW [4]
    2x Teferi 3cmc
    2x Teferi 5cmc

    Enchantments [8]
    4x Standstill
    3x Shark'nado
    1x Humility (pronounced Humilitas)
    1x Azcanta (listed above in Lands, not counted towards 60 here)

    Spells [19]
    4x FoW
    4x StP
    4x Bstorm
    2x Verdict
    2x FoN
    2x Spikefield (not counted here, counted in Lands)
    1x Sevinne's
    1x Cosmic Intervention
    1x CJ

    SB [15]
    1x Ashiok w/ passive
    1x E Tutor
    1x Stony Silence
    1x Relic
    1x Ethersworn
    1x Spiritual Focus
    1x Porphry Nodes
    2x Blessed Alliance
    2x Nahiri, the Harbinger
    1x Emmy, the Mind Slaver one
    3x REB effects

    Still waiting for them to print playable lifegain in white, so we are stuck with Blessed Alliance for a while. Nahiri is the correct way to beat Klothys and REB cheese. Spiritual Focus can be changed to another Ashiok or white Leyline. An entirely different sideboarding strategy can be employed to accommodate a card like RiP if you want more yard hate. While it wouldn't be great, Warmth could also be selected. If gunning for Thassa consider Tale's End maindeck or SB Angel's Grace.

    So Emmy is obviously is Michelangelo (honorary turtle). We used to have triple Yidaro maindeck (Leonardo, Donatello, and Raphael), but just like the movies, Raphael was kidnapped so it is the pilot's job to free him by defeating their opponent.

  13. #5433

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    The deck above is a deck we have been tinkering on for a little while and yesterday we recorded a video to showcase the deck.
    Please check it out and help us improve on the archetype.

    https://youtu.be/Bnn9PB6tKNM

  14. #5434

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Thinking of taking this for a spin again

    7 Island
    2 Plains
    1 Karakas
    1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
    1 Mystic Sanctuary
    4 Prismatic Vista
    4 Flooded Strand
    1 Scalding Tarn
    1 Tundra
    [22 Lands]

    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Force of Will
    2 Counterspell (unsure, could be e.g. Mix of Counterspell / Spellsnare / Veto or something else but I feel it should be cheap interaction)
    2 Force of Negation
    2 Thirst for Meaning
    2 Replenish

    4 Porphyry Nodes
    4 Standstill
    4 Shark Typhoon
    2 Cast Out

    SB
    1 Kaheera, the Orphanguard
    2 Enlightened Tutor
    2 Seal of Cleansing
    2 Court of Grace (Possible Split 1 Grace 1 Cunning)
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Humility
    1 Back to Basics
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Stony Silence
    1 Deafening Silence
    1 Surgical Extraction
    1 [Free slot]

    - Relative lack of lifegain a minor concern but wasn't too happy about playing a card like Dovin's Acuity (I remember being fairly enthusiastic/happy with it last time but theorycrafting this list I couldn't justify cutting anything for it)
    - Would like to fit a Search for Azcanta but possibly too greedy/hard to make space
    - Not sure if 22 lands is too many but making land drops with standstill seems good and it's mainly on account of the 'spell' lands anyway (Hall / Karakas)
    - Zero mini tef also might seem a bit weird but there is 0 Astrolabe / Omen of the Sea etc things to bounce with it, no early blockers to protect it etc so I think it's a little bit too fragile / situational
    - Otherwise some of my thoughts going into this can be found on the last couple of pages

  15. #5435
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Lifegain remains the primary deficit of UW-based Standstill decks, but Timeless Dragon has made the mana real dumb - like stupid easy. These are the motifs and what you need to know about them:

    4x Strand, 3x Vista, 3x Dragon. All of this mana fixing is pointless if you're only 2c; you get to play the best spell land for free now 2x Spikefield Hazard. Dragon demands nearly 2x plains cards per copy run (the rule can also be stated more precisely as n+2 plains cards), and the idiotic fixing of Dragon made it real easy to play 1x Tundra, 1x Plateau, 1x Raugrin Triome, and 2 Plains. You will also play 1x Volc, 4x Island, and 1x Mountain; after this you have some choices to make. You'll want to be coming out to about a 20+2 (spell lands) configuration. The last 2 slot I favor Karakas and Heliods, but you can jank out some with Urza's Saga (though I'd probably stop at 2 given the space it takes, and it's not exactly secure mana, even with Dragon, due to the mana being hidden behind a trigger). Wasteland x2 also an option. Shame Island remains terrible, don't play this card - play reliable Fetches and stop contaminating your opening hand. The real take home though is that white hands can find blue again, through the banning of our 1x Astrolabe and accompanying E-Tutor. Dragon isn't as fun or skill-testing as E-Tutor, but it's a good deal more abusive and linear.

    On Urza's Saga, you should really just be on UR Dreadstill...but if you have to play it, don't kill yourself with excessive copies. Accept that Expedition Map can get the ball rolling or chain the two together. Relic should be a target, and you get one slot to meme with...so like Retrofitter I guess (better vs Depths than Cursed Scroll, which would be the runner up). Keep the Needle in the SB. You have to be very careful about flooding out, getting ruined by Blood Moon or FoV effects, and dying to your own mana when you go above two copies. The one exploit Saga has going for it is just ignoring large chunks of legacy strategies, particularly Choke and Port by siding in 1x Lotus Field. This may seem cute, but it's among the best things you can get out of a single SB slot that has 3 cards waiting in the main to tutor it; just free win %age. Remember the Choke users are diluting their decks with 3 dead cards, while you're making linear forward progress, which is highly uninteractive (game actions and hexproof).

    On Wasteland, it isn't really needed anymore but you can run it, either as 1x with Saga tutor stuff or 2x without tutoring. Running it is going to be fine though, as it makes mana to cycle Dragon. Pretty much only care about hitting a Depths in-progress or save for exactly Karakas or Field of the Dead. The rest of your deck will determine if this is an interaction you need.

    On 4x Plow, 2x Spikefield, 2x Prismatic Ending, we have 8x Ragavan killers on 1cmc now. Two are bonus lands and exile Uro, and the other two have PW kill written on them. Put Uro in exile count risen to 8x. The Prismatic Ending is a pretty big strike against going for >1 colorless land (Wasteland, Saga). That said, Saga finds Map finds SB Lotus = exiling 4 cmc is now on the table, so variance goes up alongside power, which is a reasonable exchange. The most important thing is that we're not losing anti-TNN type effects as Prismatic Ending is replacing the trashy mana-requiring counterspells which can't touch TNN anyway (Pierce, Snare, Tale's End, Fluster, or the high variance Pyroblast maindeck which does hit TNN).

    On PWs beyond 2x Teferi 3cmc, you're going to be committing to your real deck direction. You have the Teferi 5cmc pathway and the Chandra, Acolyte of Flame pathway; the former commits you to Azcanta x1 + susceptible to Pyroblast, and the latter commits you to 2x Path of Mettle + susceptible to Prismatic Ending. Chandra is more aggressive and GY-slanted with her Snapcaster text, while Teferi 5cmc is complete control with total mana kills. Chandra obviously way better with Sevinne's, as you can endlessly loop all your business, whereas Teferi 5cmc isn't ever coming back from the yard. Whatever PW you're choosing, it needs to have reciprocal plays at 2cmc - preferably enchantment type. JTMS is still terrible; don't play bad cards. The double Teferi approach can be made pretty vicious with Flame Blitz (all your PWs can take this off the field when you're done massacring the opponent's PWs), and it has a higher incentive to play a 1x Lotus Petal Magus (Ragavan) for dash ambushes and to check typical SB strategies. Prismatic Ending has confused the need for typical strategy of boarding out Teferi 5cmc for 2x Nahiri vs REB + Klothys or Carpet users, but this is still an option.

    Chandra is by far the more fun build b/c you just dumpster boardstates with a rather outrageous suite of Jordan Aisoka-inspired Burning Wish nonsense, but there's something to be said for working towards assembling a Griselbrand [the concept of outdrawing opponent 7 to 1 with Standstill, big Teferi plus, and double Azcanta activations]. The wrath suite is quite a bit different where Chandra skews red (Burning Wish and Mettle bridge to path to Verdict), while Teferi 5cmc skews towards Portent and 3x Terminus. The ability to exile Vial and depower Port abuse with Prismatic Ending allows Teferi 5cmc to finally move towards the superior wrath spell (Verdict) and free up slots from Portent. The question in Teferi 5cmc becomes how to profitably capitalize on the red mana in the maindeck and also postboard, making forward progress without turning on opposing Pyroblast. Not working too hard on the Teferi 5cmc side at the moment, since I've been having such a blast with this:
    Lands (20+2)
    4x Strand
    3x Vista
    4x Island
    2x Plains
    1x Mountain
    1x Volc
    1x Tundra
    1x Raugrin Triome
    1x Plateau
    1x Heliod
    1x Karakas
    (2x Spikefield)

    Dudes (5)
    3x Dragon
    2x SCM

    PWs (4)
    2x Teferi 3cmc
    2x Chandra 3cmc

    Spells (31)
    4x FoW
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Plow
    4x Standstill
    2x Burning Wish
    2x Prismatic Ending
    2x Sevinne's
    2x Path of Mettle
    2x Shark'nado
    2x Spikefield
    1x FoN
    1x Humility
    1x Verdict

    SB targets: Replenish, Ruination, Cave-In, Decree of Justice, Verdict, By Force. Still terrible colors for sorcery-based yard hate. Replenish is by far the least wished for, and should be another Prismatic Ending...but Replenish has more style points. It's also just better than anything ReplenishStill ever did, which currently is busy being unplayable vs Endurance.
    Rest of SB: some blasts, Alpine Moons (mandatory), E-Tutor, Canonist, Stony, and flex slots for yard hate.

    Main lessons: fix your mana, use Dragon, have 8x Ragavan/Uro kill spells (without playing bad cards that can only kill dudes in slots 5-8), maintain anti-TNN slots, don't play and don't play pointless PWs without reciprocal 2cmc plays they combo with, and don't submit a SB without Alpine Moon. Also don't ever play Moat over Humility.

  16. #5436
    I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Still terrible colors for sorcery-based yard hate..
    I know this list utilizes its graveyard quite a bit, but perhaps Morningtide could be a viable wish target vs dredge or other graveyard decks as a last-ditch answer?
    Team FireBrothers

  17. #5437
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfstorm View Post
    I know this list utilizes its graveyard quite a bit, but perhaps Morningtide could be a viable wish target vs dredge or other graveyard decks as a last-ditch answer?
    Can't really wait until turn 3 to grab then cast that. I'm also not interested in reseting my GY at the same time for no benefit (i.e. no board presence, no value, no flashback, no combo applications). When you look at effects like these, particularly the non-statics, they need to be hidden in the manabase (Bog, Desert of Progenitus).

  18. #5438

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    Why are the decks running Ethersworn Canonist instead of Deafening Silence?

    e.g. these recent lists: Jeskai Monkey Still

  19. #5439
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    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    The easy answer is netdecking.

    UWR Ragavan is based off of my UR Dreadstill list given to Ark4n. He took it in the direction of Ragavan over DRC, and I discussed the issues with disharmonious plan of Ragavan vs Dreadstill's systematic approach to the format. Ark4n skewed away from Dreadnought & Standstill, and towards unstable mana shored up by Ponder and monkey-Petals to enable Prismatic Ending and the over-slotting of Saga.

    The SB choices are heavily based on the motifs of my UR and UW Dreadstill, and Canonist has been in there for 3+ years now. There are a number of reasons Dreadstill specifically chooses Ethersworn, but for the Ragavan derivative it is still overwhelmingly important to stop Elves - a matchup where Deafening is worse than useless. A deck trying to cheese Veil is not fast enough to capitalize on 1 mana vs 2, and Canonist can't be hit by Pierce from SnT. FoN is not relevant in this choice at this time. Against DDFT it is important that Thassa is the only spell they can cast that turn (into a Stifle).

  20. #5440

    Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill

    @Fox
    Yeah, that totally makes sense, same reason DnT can't stop running Canonist as well. Thank you!

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