C'mon. We are not playing a tempo deck. Fire/Ice is amazing in decks where the ''Tap you blocker to Time Walk'' effect is worth, i.e. Canadian Threshold. In Landstill, you tap their KOTR, and then what? Beat with a 5/5 Mishra's factory ? Or you try to topdeck a StP? Both Fire/Ice and Lightning Helix seem bad in Landstill. Lightning bolt however could be useful consideering the presence in the format of Lackey. But again, I'd rather play PtE as 5th and 6th Stp instead. What would you remove to play F/I ? EE? I don't think so.
I don't run gain life effects. I think that 20 life total is enough to win a legacy game. Except against Burn, but you have a sideboard, no? and against fast decks (such as Burn) any other decent Life gain tech (such as Cunning wish into Pulse) is slow as fuck. Helix is not so needed considering that it forces you to always have both secondary colours on board. If I'd play Helix as a life gain source, still I'd play Cunning Wish into Pulse, and even at that point, I'd rather not play Life gain at all, simply because I think that Cunning Wish is too slow.
Agree on Peacekeeper.
Probably he's siding Descendant against Burn/Sligh/ WR landfall sligh. I don't think it is really helpful against Combo/Enchantress. In fact, I fail to see how could you side it against Combo/Enchantress.
Speedstill? What's that?
Are you into Jazz? Have a look at the Lp's I have for sale on Discogs!
Real control decks as in board control + counters + draw spells + ~4-6 finishers + land. I think Standard best illustrates what I'm talking about: From 1996 (Wiesman style control) to the last year or so when decks like 5c Control and UW control took over. These decks started playng more and more creatures either as good walls, utility creatures, or both. Now decks like modern UW control play 6-8 creatures, in addition to 2-5 PWs, use 7-10 counters and maybe 7-8 draw spells including Ponder. Controls best strategy in modern Standard is play creatures too, just bigger ones. I feel like this is what Legacy is coming to due to creature power-creep and Wizards considerably toning down blue.
Control decks are turning into aggro decks with more counters and removal.
"Bingo, man, bingo. 7-Minute Abs. And we guarantee just as good a workout as the 8-minute folk."
"You guarantee it? That's - how do you do that?"
"If you're not happy with the first 7 minutes, we're gonna send you the extra minute free. You see? That's it. That's our motto. That's where we're comin' from. That's from A to B."
Didn't U/W Control from back in the day run Serra Angels?
I know Landstill used to run (and some still do) Eternal Dragon, and I consider Mishra's Factory to be a creature. So basically, U/W Control has always used a creature as their win condition, just some have better synergy than others (Factory + sweepers like WoG, etc).
If you want a creature-less control deck, my U/W/x CounterTop Walker runs 0 creatures. It's win conditions are 2/2/2 Elspeth/Jace/Shackles. If you don't mind running 4-6 creatures, Supreme Blue is likely the best out there right now (at least, based on tournament results).
Wiesmans list didn't run 6 Serra Angels though, and he wouldn't have if he could. He only ran 2, and for a reason: because she was the best finisher after you had taken control, not because she beat all the aggro decks when she it hits play on T5.
Creatures have always been the kill condition of control decks, mainly because it's pretty difficult to actually win with a single non-creature spell. Eternal Dragon and Factory are only run because they serve as win-conditions once you have control of the game, while also being useful for producing mana or searching for land. UW control of 2009-2010 Standard ran 4 Baneslayer Angels, not to use as a post-control finisher, but because she is that good against aggro decks. And of course, she makes a fine finisher too. Sun Titan and Frost Titan serve much the same purpose: just being bad-ass cards who will pull you in from behind, while also conviently being 6/6 beaters or a 5/5 flyer.
I like the CounterWalker deck, and would be playing it if I didn't have a CB deck of my own on the front burner. I'm starting to think that Tarmogoyf really does belong in any deck that can produce green. Somebody, somewhere in the world, is brewing up UWg StandGoyfStill. And it's probably a beast.
"Bingo, man, bingo. 7-Minute Abs. And we guarantee just as good a workout as the 8-minute folk."
"You guarantee it? That's - how do you do that?"
"If you're not happy with the first 7 minutes, we're gonna send you the extra minute free. You see? That's it. That's our motto. That's where we're comin' from. That's from A to B."
UWr Landstill won the Legacy Master at Magic League. This is the list:
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Humility
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Wrath of God
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Standstill
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
Sideboard:
2 Path to Exile
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Humility
3 Peacekeeper
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Ethersworn Canonist
More info: http://magic-league.com/deck/66741/l...Jacestill58781
It does apply to Morphling, but again, Morphling was used more as a finisher, rather than a wall/"drop whenever because he's so good" creature. Most BBS/MUC lists only ran 2-3 Morphman, and dropping him when your opponent my have a counter or removal for him wasn't something players would risk. Under the most common and ideal conditions, you had a few counters in hand and 6-8 mana on the board when you would drop Morphling, making him a safe, reliable, 4 turn clock. The main point I'm trying to drive across is when decks start packing 4 Baneslayer, 2-3 Titans, 3-4 Wall of Omens, 2-3 Sea Gate Oracle, in addition to 2-5 PWs, you're just a bigger, slower aggro deck. It's just not the same anymore. But that's they way it is, so we gotta deal with it.
That list that won the ML tournament was certainly a good call from whoever piloted it. Nice 3x PKs in the board to shut out Loam, Folk, and Affinity.
Also, GOGO DEWDROP SPY!
"Bingo, man, bingo. 7-Minute Abs. And we guarantee just as good a workout as the 8-minute folk."
"You guarantee it? That's - how do you do that?"
"If you're not happy with the first 7 minutes, we're gonna send you the extra minute free. You see? That's it. That's our motto. That's where we're comin' from. That's from A to B."
I think you might have a few misconceptions.
http://www.magicdeckvortex.com/DDB/a...rick_j_dec.htm
The description in that link says it all.
"This version of Blue Control differed from everything since Mana Vault had been legal in Standard for turn 2 Air Elementals... The goal here was to utilize Grim Monolith to exploits Blue's then-greatest strengths. Its best cards in-Block (excepting Windfall etc.) were not finesse counters but its raw muscle, namely Morphling, Treachery, and the bulk card drawing spells, which could themselves serve as finishers. Rather than worrying about holding back early game for Counterspell as Blue players may have historically done, PatrickJ.dec aficionados set up Grim Monolith early game in order to make their best cards faster and stronger. Racing with the third turn Morphling was a common game plan for this deck."
I can show you versions playing Masticores on top of Morphlings to simulate 6+ creature finishers too, but I think you get the point.
And what kind of control spawned after this? Dr. Teeth? Wake with their combo flavored kills? The Keiga tap out blue approach? Tron centered decks with their accelerated Sundering Titans? These were all prestigious control decks that packed a proactive game plan.
You think the Weissman style of play died out a year or so ago, I think it died out over a decade ago. Building an impenetrable wall of defense is simply not a winning strategy like it was in 94 and the game has moved beyond it a long time ago.
Suddenly, Fluffy realized she wasn't quite like the other bunnies anymore.
-Team R&D-
-noitcelfeR maeT-
TL DR; What I feel Rico is trying to say: To narrow your views on control to a certain strategy/playstyle is to miss the point of control entirely. If he does not mean this, I mean this.
In my opinion, a control deck is a deck that has a set of strategy that best answers the metagame. Inherently, a control deck is probably as anti-metagame a deck can ever be. Despite the fact that it has win-conditions e.g. Serra Angel/Masticore/Morphling/Jace 2/Factories, the bulk of the strategy is to still assume the control role before winning, that's the definition of control. And to assume the control role is to make metagame decisions, correct cards/strategies that nullify opponent's strategies/cards.
This is why I feel that to think of Landstill as THE CONTROL deck is wrong. I used to think in that light. When I think of control, I think of what tools can I use to best fight against the meta. Dreadstill has a set of strong tools that are strong against various matchups, but so does Landstill, Supreme Blue etc. Every deck is not impenetrable, there are weaknesses, there are strengths. Would Morphling be played in the Urza metagame if the metagame was different or other options were available? Why was Serra Angel played in Weismann's list? This is because for that particular metagame, Morphling/Serra Angel were the trump cards in the meta when combined with control elements e.g. StP/counterspell. After the board is under control, Serra Angel will beat the crap out of everything outside of a Shivan Dragon, which is dealt with StP/Counterspell. In the current Legacy metagame, to assume that a creatureless approach (Hanni's list) or a Dreadnought approach (Dreadstill) or a Landstill approach is the best answer to the metagame is entirely missing the point of control.
There is, however, an element of preference, sense of attachment, dislikes and likes for certain playstyles that drive into players into picking Landstill over Dreadstill over countertop over Stax etc. And I think this is one big reason why threads exists in the first place. Because a metagame is a metagame, there will be the best decks and anti-decks available, but other 'subpar' decks will still be discussed because of the inherent attachment, or the belief that these decks can be innovated and adapted to the meta. And this is the very reason I enjoy Landstill even if it is not ideally positioned in a meta. It's one of the few decks that has a ton of flex slots that can be changed to combat a meta, and is the reason why I tie it to be more of a control deck than other control variants. When you have a control deck that cannot shift to adapt, then it is a control deck efficient for a specific type of meta. One can argue Landstill sucks against most archetype so this is a moot point, but I don't believe the archetype Landstill sucks, I think it's mostly the pilot's mistake in card choices and play mistakes that account for its losses. At least I personally strongly believe that the archetype is strong, but a challenging one to master, and even more challenging one to build and pick the correct choice of cards that best answers the current threats. Since the deck has no 'cheating' wins, this decision of card choices become even more crucial to the success/failure of the deck.
I guess my post was even more TLDR than Rico's lol.
I've never said that other, less-heavy control decks with a more prominent/earlier plan of aggression (Dreadstill, CB Goyf, Standard Faeries) were bad choices or subpar. In fact, both decks are great control decks, but I don't find them nearly as fun or similar to play as decks like Landstill. Landstill plays just like BBS (Vintage), Draw-Go (Tempest), Masti/Morph era- blue control, Mirrodin-era MUC, and TSP-era Dralnu UB. All these decks played for the control roll, and did use effective big men to help stabilize and win, but most weren't running them with the plan of dropping them ASAP. Accelerated Blue was an exception to the rule, and completely different from other blue decks at the time. Though, I guess you are correct in that it did start the trend of a more aggressive blue deck rather than the reactive, counter-everything blue. Trying to build an "impenetrable wall" stopped happening after Sligh decks became known, and to some extent, Necro-decks. The goals for control for 11-12 years of Magic were: Stay alive, Stabilize, Win. Do this by any means necessary. In my opinion, the goals now are "play a few counters, kill a few dudes, drop Jace/BSA/Titan ASAP, Win." Regardless of what you think, I was just expressing my opinion on the last page that I don't find these modern control decks to play like control decks of years past, and this argument is taking the thread way the fuck off course (you know, talking about Landstill, and how to improve it).
Traditional control (Weissman) died a decade ago. Cool beans. That doesn't change the fact that were all in a Landstill thread, not a CB/Dreadstill thread, and talking about how the deck is dying/not viable. I hope somebody else out there thinks that this is a problem.
"Bingo, man, bingo. 7-Minute Abs. And we guarantee just as good a workout as the 8-minute folk."
"You guarantee it? That's - how do you do that?"
"If you're not happy with the first 7 minutes, we're gonna send you the extra minute free. You see? That's it. That's our motto. That's where we're comin' from. That's from A to B."
The point is that Landstill follows this same path. Landstill isn't about establishing control anymore than T2 Control decks are. How often do you simply play an Elspeth or Jace then ride it to victory? This deck isn't a REAL control deck anymore than the Standard decks you have been criticizing.
Suddenly, Fluffy realized she wasn't quite like the other bunnies anymore.
-Team R&D-
-noitcelfeR maeT-
I don't really follow your last post Rico:
Then what is control? Dreadnought, BSA, Jace 2, Elspeth, Factories, Treachery, Morphling are simply objects, cards. Every phase in Magic has had its control decks, irregardless of the cards they play. Any matchup will have a control player v.s. an aggressor, even if it is a gob v.s. Zoo matchup. It is just that usually a deck like countertop/Landstill/Dreadstill likes to assume the control role because the strategy is based around that role. It has nothing to do with riding a Jace/Elspeth/Dreadnought/BSA/Squire to victory.The point is that Landstill follows this same path. Landstill isn't about establishing control anymore than T2 Control decks are. How often do you simply play an Elspeth or Jace then ride it to victory? This deck isn't a REAL control deck anymore than the Standard decks you have been criticizing.
Certain control decks die out over time because its specific strategy is no longer viable e.g. Dreadstill died out for some time when Pridemage was printed and became the new hot creature alongside with Grips. Landstill died out when the meta was super combo heavy and flooded with Fish.
What is a REAL control deck to you then? (I'm kinda confused)
Been testing a lot vs this deck with many decks but am not finding to many things that beat it. What are the typical bad matchups goblins and Merfolk?
The versions without Counterbalance?goblins and Merfolk
Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy, Goblins, Merfolk, Cat Sligh, Fast Zoo, Storm Combo.
There's others, but that's a long enough list already.
Loam can be defeated through Meddling mages and very tight playing. Merfolk is not a bad matchup, storm combo is not either , as I tend to run 4 Spell Pierce in side + 3 Meddling Mages. Dragon Stompy is not a deck anymore, or at least is not so played to justify its inclusion in the bad MU list. Goblins, Zoo and Cat zoo are hardly a good matchup but I would not call em an hard matchup. Hey, if those are ''bad MUs'' for us running mass sweepers, EE and 6 sword effect, what do they represent for the rest of the meta? Nightmare MUs??? / sarcasm.
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I never said those matchups were unwinnable. He asked what some bad matchups were, so I listed some bad matchups. Also, you're off your rocker if you think Merfolk isn't a bad matchup.Loam can be defeated through Meddling mages and very tight playing. Merfolk is not a bad matchup, storm combo is not either , as I tend to run 4 Spell Pierce in side + 3 Meddling Mages. Dragon Stompy is not a deck anymore, or at least is not so played to justify its inclusion in the bad MU list. Goblins, Zoo and Cat zoo are hardly a good matchup but I would not call em an hard matchup. Hey, if those are ''bad MUs'' for us running mass sweepers, EE and 6 sword effect, what do they represent for the rest of the meta? Nightmare MUs??? / sarcasm.
Oh, and before somebody jumps on me and says that Merfolk and Goblins are just as bad for lists with Counterbalance, I know they are. If you look in that list though, there's several matchups that Counterbalance significantly improves.
Landstill doesn't struggle so much because of specific matchups. It struggles more because of specific cards than it does matches. For example most people in this thread would say Zoo is a favorable match up, but I would say those people have never seen a Zoo player cast Price of Progress or Choke.
The other problem with Landstill is that it runs so many answers but not much of a proactive plan. The inherent problem with running a boatload of answers is that eventually you'll draw the wrong ones at the wrong time and your deck will self destruct. Or you can't possibly run enough answers to solve everything the metagame can throw at you.
Also, decks like Merfolk don't lose to the "1 for 1 them forever" plan.
Control is just a term we use to describe a kind of deck.
When one person wants to discuss MTG with another person, we use words like control instead of saying "well, he ran 2 Elspeth, 2 Jace, 3 Counterspells, 2 Path to Exile, a mix of Vindicate and Pernicious Deed..." or whatever. It's like when someone says they drive a truck, the point is communicated efficiently and quickly with a short word even if it's not totally descriptive of exactly what brand truck he drives.
So when this guy says he wants to play a REAL control deck, then says that the control decks in Standard aren't real control decks, I'm really confused. It's like an Affinity player saying that Goblins isn't a REAL aggro deck.
Suddenly, Fluffy realized she wasn't quite like the other bunnies anymore.
-Team R&D-
-noitcelfeR maeT-
These are indeed the bad matchups.
But to be fair: Gobs + Fast Zoo is 50/50 and gobs is more like 60/40 postboard. And Counterbalance does nothing against Dragon STompy and Gobs.
Out of the above list however, Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy, Cat Sligh are not commonly played, so the popular list that it boils down to are Merfolk, Storm Combo, and Zoo with Price of Progress. At the very least, my list that I tweak in my metagame HAS to take into account of Merfolks and Zoo, and 1-3 combo players. Counterbalance lists do help out in the Zoo/combo matchups but it weakens the other matchups such as Bant, GWx. Any deck packing GW usually makes Counterbalance not a worthwhile engine when considering Grips + Pridemage + counters/discard + fast clock. This is not to say that a counterbalance list will not do well, but I feel that a non-Counterbalance list trumps these GWx decks better than a Counterbalance list. It's a balance, but I'm inclined to say that Counterbalance.control has more power in the meta than one without one, but it doesn't necessarily means that it is a mistake not to play Counterbalance.
And Rico, that makes more sense now that you explained it lol.
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