What if I just board it out / don't tutor it vs Bant midrange or UW Dreadstill, but use it against other decks? The majority of Legacy decks don't run the combo of Dress Down + Prismatic Ending. If you see an opponent on that deck, it's easy to pivot to Map to avoid the land loss. There are other matchups where Saga into Retrofitter is strong at grinding out uncounterable bodies that overwhelm their spot removal. Just the existence of it in the deck forces them to play into Standstill quickly, especially a T2 Standstill. Otherwise there's less pressure on them to play into Standstill (takes a while for Shark or Dragon beatdown). That's the biggest benefit I found. I could jam Standstills aggressively because Saga forces action, even moreso than Factory used to.Originally Posted by Fox
I think the vulnerability you're talking about lies in decks that lean too heavily on 4x Saga with Retrofitter as the primary target (then Shadowspear or Needle). That's not happening here. If opponent concentrates all their resources into shutting down Saga + Retrofitter, that's such a small part of this deck's game plan. You can pivot around it, then board out Retrofitter.
A trick I used 1 game is to sacrifice Saga to Lotus Field after making 1 Construct, so you don't actually go down a land, but still get a free body out of it. Then Lotus Field powers out both casts of Sevinne's... many options possible.
Was Nahiri chosen to answer things like Klothys (exile enchantment) and Kaldra? 3feri bounce on germ also answers Kaldra well (and most Kaldra decks don't run Pyroblast). PEnding answers Klothys and other things that need to be exiled.
I found opponent can play around Nahiri by just not tapping creatures into it unless they have lethal. Then all you can do is +2 Rummage, which is a bit underwhelming for the investment of a 4cmc walker. One game I had a Nahiri on 12 counters that neither of us cared about.
Jace is more fragile, but at least did relevant things while it was out: Brainstorm into gas before dying, fateseal lock combo player, bounce Murktide (lol). I see Jace's weaknesses you've pointed out, but I'm not convinced a 2nd Nahiri is actually an improvement. Is there anything else?
In UWB, what walkers do you run other than Teferi? Kaya?
The issue is not that the opponent goes turn 1 reveal Yorion plains Mom, or turn 1 Emry or whatever, then I play standstill and my opponent plays Saga and I'm like "oh no how could I have seen that coming"; I agree that it's generally obvious very early which decks have saga in them. The issue is that from turn 1 once you know you are playing against these decks your primary card advantage tool essentially becomes an uncastable brick. This seems like a significant problem. Then as you say, some rogue decks might surprise you with a "slow" saga and your only barely-reasonable out is the 1 Otawara which doesn't sound great either.@kombatkiwi Saga should not be a Saga surprise after an opponent takes their first turn as they should open with things like Mox Diamond, Mox Opal, Tomb, artifact land, Painter staples, etc. Against these, you should know not to play a Standstill on 2, and have a deck that wipes constructs [Verdict, Dress Down], deals with the tutor target [Ending, Kaya 3cmc if UBw], and has PWs/value pieces that take over the game (until hardcast Shark comes online).
If someone is playing slow, stealthy Saga they can't outpace Otawara bouncing your own Standstill. Having the Otawara isn't a reliable plan, but it's at least something for these corner cases.
My point was that it seems theres no way to build the deck that fully avoids this problem, despite your suggestion/implication otherwise. Vs the decks where you know they have Saga then you need "more brainstorm" to trade in your dead standstills for playable cards but cards like Lat Nams Legacy or Thirst For Meaning etc kind of suck. Against the surprise saga there aren't (any?) other Otawara-like cards you can play so the only reasonable approach is to play copies of wasteland and hope that you can waste their saga before it ticks up and kill them with shark/dragon before they find more, which is okay I guess but not a perfect solution by any means
This aspect seems overblown. The deck has quite a few ways to kill a needle (Tef Bounce or Ending / March), if you anticipate needle coming then you can just cycle Shark for minimum 2 mana to get it out of your hand, and even if you can't answer needle you can just play toward 6 mana and hardcast the Shark. If you were relying on the Shark to win through your Standstill, and then you got saga-needled, and now you can't answer the needle without giving opp 3 cards and you also can't cycle shark then I agree, you are fucked, but you were already fucked when the opp played a Saga into your onboard Standstill. It would still be really bad for you if your opponent ends up with 2 Karnstruct + e.g. Shadowspear instead of needle. I don't understand the panic about needle specifically.Now there's all kinds of ways Saga games can go, but you absolutely must not be submitting a list that gets massacred by something so simple as Saga -> Needle quad laser Shark'nado. This is horrifically bad to have 8 cards (Standstill and Shark) clogging up hands. Regardless of what deck you play in legacy, avoid 8-dead-carding yourself. You have to set the bar higher for a Saga user to one-shot you with dead card variance - we do not yolo with 4x Sharks. Add different card names, e.g. Timeless, Otawara, Saga, etc.
I don't know that I necessarily agree with the conclusion but the premise is reasonableOn the recursive, or non-blue, payoff permanent for UWr, it doesn't exist at this time. This plus no playable lifegain is the problem with UWr. We are in a holding pattern. We know exactly what the card needs to do. We will identify it the second it is spoiled and buy it before modern catches on ruins the price. But yes, this is why despite the amazing mana of UWr, it's the least competitive of the serious Standstill-using decks.
I agree totally with the "standstill built not to die to goyf" comment but having your removal be almost universally terrible vs murktide seems concerning. (Edict bad if they have the 1/1 DRC, Thirst cost 3, Winter can't hit it, Ending can't hit it, Deluge so much life, Drown also awkward)On UBw Landstill, got zero problems gaining tons of life. Have lost 1 match to Murktide, and the only reason is that I didn't pay 13 for Deluge, which would have won. Murktide existing has vastly improved Standstill's meta position, b/c Standstill is built to not die to Goyf. You best believe I will Deluge with impunity vs Bolt-Delver on the back of Cling, Kaya, and Rider + kill spells that put dudes in the Cling zone. DRC is also a joke when it comes to pressuring life total vs UBw; nothing makes me happier than obliterating Daze with land drops at the low low cost of 1 life per turn.
Overall I can see the usefulness of Cling/Kaya but I still think I would build toward UWb instead of UBw. Moving from Bloodchiefs Thirst / Innocent Blood to Plow / Ending and playing Verdict over the black sweepers feels like an upgrade, Drown doesn't excite me either
The issue with UWb is that black really doesn't have anything going for it as a tertiary color:
-You're not going to skip Verdict to pick up black's fast, color un-intensive 3cmc wrath.
-You're not able to use Cling effectively vs UBw where it is a reasonable way for black mana to find blue (in the same way that Timeless allows white to find blue).
-Unconditional PW kill spells are going to require double black pips, so that's out (stuck on Ending maxing out at 3 colors).
-You lose the best mana-requiring counterspell in the format (Drown). Really bad idea to aggro out a basic Swamp on turn 2, and even worse to lose on the spot by grabbing early Usea into death to Wasteland. You're also exiling everything with white spells, which is not a combo.
-Can't use CTP. Colonnade is not playable. No longer able to be Landstill.
-Not gaining any non-Pyroblast'able value engine. Loss of Karn, loss of SB space to REBs.
In UBw I already have the only good white spells, and these start on 3 mana. Ending can come down earlier ofc, but the only proactive spells in white are Sevinne's, Teferi, and Kaya. On UWb I would at least keep Kaya, but it's not like there is a great WB value engine at 4 mana. I don't think 5cmc Kaya is really the answer either. It's definitely cool to have Timeless Dragon and more generically reliable removal, but it really is just being done so I can play a 1x Kaya 3cmc + 1x Cling (at most) in the main, and 2x Plague Engi and 2x Unmoored Ego in the side. REB effects and Spikefield are going win more games, and the tiny black splash won't fix the lifegain nor the value engine problems.
I get that Plow/Ending/Verdict feel safer/less polarized than a UB-focused removal package, but you have nothing to play towards with the UW focus if the matchup doesn't favor casting Standstill. A UB focus has no issue stabilizing the board over and over and over, then transitioning to a late game win by Kaya-cannon or total mana denial/prison by Karn. Meanwhile UW is just like "I can hardcast Sharks..." which is still a line in UBx.
In UWr you're not going to find a hard answer to Saga, but you are able to "dance" around the problem with Wastelands, maybe some March, some SB Alpine Moons, not getting variance 1-shot'd by Needle naming quad Shark (b/c Standstills are almost certainly dead)...but at some point you need to divert mana into a real gameplan better than "I'll hardcast Shark and somehow get there." Adding a black splash to UW isn't really going to fix this. If your "value engines" are Teferi and Narset, you've died at deck construction.
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@FTW remember you can ult Nahiri to pull out a SCM or a Dragon, both of which go back to hand and can generate value. Nahiri has significant wording issues and cannot downtick to exile Kaldra. The only playable card in legacy that actually kills Kaldra is March for x=7; otherwise you need a Stifle and the opponent has to go for a foolish flicker effect. Doesn't help that wotc "made legacy better" by taking away the indirect phasing + token exiled axis of interaction; the format is poorer for this exceptionally shortsighted update. Back to the value stuff, there really isn't anything from white or red. Chandra, Acolyte of Flame + Path of Mettle + Humility is sweet, but is more fun than good. Gideon and flash-Gideon (Wandering Emporer) just aren't good enough. Chandra, ToD has similar problems: we don't care about how it tries to win. We're not making progress by attacking life totals with 2/2s or shocks. For all the flaws, Nahiri is the most 1-card combo'ish and still feeds into the wincon method.
I don't remember the exact details, but I'm pretty sure the board position was such that -8 for Dragon would have left Nahiri dead to attacks. I already had a Dragon in the graveyard and a plan to win that game, so suiciding Nahiri for 1 creature seemed unnecessary. In other hypothetical game states I could sacrifice Nahiri to get Dragon or SCM, but at that point why not have Nahiri just be a different wincon? It was a good example of how often Nahiri can be a "do nothing".
Maybe I just haven't gotten to cast it into a tapped Murktide/Griselbrand/Uro yet to really appreciate it. Before Prismatic Ending, I could see how exiling artifacts and enchantments would be useful. But Plow + Prismatic + Snapcaster is already plenty of exile removal, and now there's March too.
Oh right. The creature isn't Vigilant, but the equipment stays untapped. Even worse then. If it could remove Kaldra, that would be a big point in its favor. With Klothys seeing less play, what is Nahiri for then?
What about Keranos, God of Storms? Only Pyroblastable on the stack, which is easier to play around. Enchantment type has synergy with Heliod & ETutor. Pitches to Force.
Wandering Emperor's flash can at least exile Marit Lage, Murktide, Kaldra token, Griselbrand etc. before they deal combat damage. With Nahiri you have to take the hit first.
March of Otherworldly Light? If Saga and higher cmc permanents are a big enough problem to remove, why not swap some Prismatics for March?
Last edited by FTW; 04-11-2022 at 07:08 PM.
This kind of summarizes the reasons why black doesn't impress me as a secondary colour either. Your argument is that you getThe issue with UWb is that black really doesn't have anything going for it as a tertiary color:
-You're not going to skip Verdict to pick up black's fast, color un-intensive 3cmc wrath.
-You're not able to use Cling effectively vs UBw where it is a reasonable way for black mana to find blue (in the same way that Timeless allows white to find blue).
-Unconditional PW kill spells are going to require double black pips, so that's out (stuck on Ending maxing out at 3 colors).
-You lose the best mana-requiring counterspell in the format (Drown). Really bad idea to aggro out a basic Swamp on turn 2, and even worse to lose on the spot by grabbing early Usea into death to Wasteland. You're also exiling everything with white spells, which is not a combo.
-Can't use CTP. Colonnade is not playable. No longer able to be Landstill.
-Not gaining any non-Pyroblast'able value engine. Loss of Karn, loss of SB space to REBs.
1) Reliably casting cling early
2) Drown
3) Tarpit
None of those things seem like very big attractions, then:
4) "Unconditional PW kill spells" (not even true that they require double black pips, you could just play Vindicate or the new uncounterable UBW one)
5) "Unpyroblastable value engine" Can't any build of the deck play Karn? ("loss of SB space to reb" doesn't make sense here because we're comparing it to UWb, not jeskai)
I feel like Ending/Verdict are pretty importantIn UBw I already have the only good white spells, and these start on 3 mana. Ending can come down earlier ofc,
I mostly agree with this characterisation of the limited utility of UWb but I still feel like UWr has more upside than UBwit really is just being done so I can play a 1x Kaya 3cmc + 1x Cling (at most) in the main, and 2x Plague Engi and 2x Unmoored Ego in the side. REB effects and Spikefield are going win more games, and the tiny black splash won't fix the lifegain nor the value engine problems.
I just don't find this argument very convincing (that against matchups where standstill is bad you are saved by having Karn/Kaya)but you have nothing to play towards with the UW focus if the matchup doesn't favor casting Standstill. A UB focus has no issue stabilizing the board over and over and over, then transitioning to a late game win by Kaya-cannon or total mana denial/prison by Karn. Meanwhile UW is just like "I can hardcast Sharks..." which is still a line in UBx.
The point about hardcasting sharks is that if that is a sufficient plan then you wouldn't need e.g. Karn. It's not to say that it is an option exclusive to UWx
It's not clear to me how UBw solves this problem eitherIn UWr you're not going to find a hard answer to Saga, but you are able to "dance" around the problem with Wastelands, maybe some March, some SB Alpine Moons, not getting variance 1-shot'd by Needle naming quad Shark (b/c Standstills are almost certainly dead)...but at some point you need to divert mana into a real gameplan better than "I'll hardcast Shark and somehow get there." Adding a black splash to UW isn't really going to fix this. If your "value engines" are Teferi and Narset, you've died at deck construction.
If you don't have Standstill in play then you have lots of options, you can March the saga or Dressdown the constructs or Prismatic Ending the 1 mana artifact etc. The problem I was describing is that vs a Saga deck what are you planning to do with your 'uncastable' standstills, or what are you planning to do that lets you respond to your opponent's saga when you already have standstill in play? March doesn't help with this.March of Otherworldly Light? If Saga and higher cmc permanents are a big enough problem to remove, why not swap some Prismatics for March?
If the main problem with Jeskai is supposedly lack of lifegain and lack of non-Pyroable value engine (these concerns seem reasonable to me) I'm surprised that Wandering Emperor is categorically "not good enough"
Cling is free/random maindeck yard hate, plus it helps black mana find blue, and it is a non-Pyroblast'able value engine. It is as important to black as Timeless is to white. These are Daze killers, which make them the most valuable type of cards in the format. It's important to understand how catastrophic it is for Delver to put anything in their yard on turn 1 (so like a Fetchland), because I'm going to go Daze hunting with Cling. If they fail to comply by strip mining themselves off their first land drop (massacring their ability to cast Iteration any time soon), then I'm drawing extra towards lands to ensure Daze remains dead and they are crippled in the hunt for delirium and delve 5. It also exiles Uro.
But remember, no matter how amazing Cling is, the only decent proactive play that entire color will give you mainboard is Kaya 3cmc...and if black is the tertiary color, there is no way you can safely & reliably build early towards the only mana-requiring counterspell worth playing in this format (Drown).
On Creeping Tarpit, the main challenge in all Standstill decks was sitting around for years, sometimes decades, waiting for colored mana on not 3x Factory. The win percentage you generate by dropping the 3x Factory for the 2x better mana manland is significant. The mana CTP can fix while acting as a game action threat is incredibly valuable, so much so that we'll play 2x despite the etb tapped part.
I would not compare simple PW kill spells to cards with lifelink on the back end of Rider (remember lifegain is a fundamental deficit of UWr). Nor would I compare a 1 mana kill spell (Bloodchief's) to 3 mana cards which are either counterable or have heavy color requirements.
If you are on UWr/UWR Standstill/Landstill with Karn, you've got a lot of bad matchups and that lifegain problem. When you start tallying, it becomes readily apparent that you're playing crappy UW Dreadstill or crappy UBw Landstill. Choosing the less winning shell is meme'ing; it is neither serious nor competitive.
On Ending/Verdict, they're very good spells...but they aren't proactive...and you can't really trust blue for proactive beyond 2cmc b/c of Pyroblast. You get to 3cmc and blue (Teferi) and you need the backup by not-blue (Sevinne's) to get away with that in this format. Otherwise you're not making competitive choices. There is maybe some competitive higher cmc blue PW stuff you can do if you have the black channel land doing a Sevinne's impersonation...but again that's a black land putting you on black as the secondary color, not tertiary.
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Some minor points:
-if UWr changes Ending to March, they don't have the backup PW kill spells UBw has. You're creating a new problem for yourself.
-Plow/Ending is pretty safe and consistent, but it's also one-dimensional. UB-based removal has higher highs and lower lows, but it is multi-dimensional. They're both competitive removal packages, it's just that UBw doesn't have lifegain problems, nor as many Pyroblast problems as UWr; so there just isn't a good followup after you take the safe white removal package.
-on Wandering Emporer, if you ult you gain 2 life and have to wait 2 turns to do anything that impacts the board. The kill mode needs to draw a card and the lifegain has to be at least as good as Solitude each turn. In either case there is no value engine, which is what the slot needed to provide.
Wandering Emperor's ult gains 2+X life (X is power of attacking creature), since it can interrupt combat. That's a big deal for creatures like Murktide, Kaldra, Kappa, Constructs, Uro, Griselbrand, Emrakul, or Marit Lage. That could be 7 or more life. Even killing DRC/Delver is 5 life.
With Nahiri's exile ability you have to take the attack first (0 life gained vs X+2 life), then make Nahiri at sorcery speed and pass with Nahiri on 2 counters. That leaves Nahiri dead to anything else on board, trading 1-for-1 & 2 life. To use the removal you had to allow the attack and only got to do 1 thing.
Emperor cannot be attacked the combat you flash it, so it will probably survive no matter what opponent has on board. Then you untap and activate a 2nd loyalty ability before Emperor is vulnerable to attacks. 2 abilities in a row. If it would die to board, you can suicide to make a 2/2 (still 2-for-1 & gain X+2 life). If opponent has nothing else on board or you want to gain more life by diverting attacks, you +1 back up to 2 counters for long-term value. Either way you get options. Flash makes the card much better.
Emperor's other mode is ambushing a dork as a flash 2/2, then you attack back as 3/3 first strike vigilance. It's a pseudo-hasty Rogue Elephant vs enemy walkers.
Is that as good a value engine as Kaya or Jace (outside Pyro matches)? Of course not. But I don't see how it's worse than a 2nd Nahiri. Between the life and 2/2s, Emperor has a bigger impact on stabilizing. Nahiri's + ability is not a value engine. It doesn't generate free cards, just card selection, and Rummage is much worse than Loot. Many times I have opted to not dig, because my hand was already decent and a random card could make it worse.
What about Karn, Scion of Urza? Non-pyroblastable. Draws cards. Makes bodies. Doesn't take up SB space or look like a bad Dreadstill copy.
Another non-Pyroblastable value engine is Urza's Saga+Heliod. In my limited games with your build and my old build, Saga snowballs got me a lot of wins. Recurring Saga is a significant long-term threat and plays well with Standstill. The main answer is Wasteland, but you can Saga->Needle @ Wasteland, Surgical @ Wasteland, or use Sevinne's to keep bringing the lands back. Opponent could choose to fight harder on that axis, but you can pivot without having committed many resources. Saga also improves your options vs opposing Sagas, since you can out-value them if they refuse to crack Standstill. I want to test this out more. UWr may be the best color combo to pull this off, due to the more stable mana.
If you have Standstill in play and opponent plays Saga (and you're on a non-Saga UWr build with slow threats like Shark and Dragon), then you have the following options:
a) Scoop cards. 0% win rate.
b) Don't cast spells and let Constructs + Saga target kill you. 0% win rate.
c) Cast a spell to disrupt Saga, cracking your own Standstill. 20-30% win rate.
None of the cards mentioned by you or Fox help A or B. So we're really talking about C in game 1, before boarding out Standstill. You slammed Standstill, opponent played Saga, much regret. At this stage giving opponent free cards still beats scooping to Saga, so you want ways to help come back in this game down cards. Control can still stabilize after falling behind cards (unlike the 1-for-1 decks). Your odds are bad, but not impossible. March is a clean 1-mana instant speed answer that prevents the tutor target and both Constructs, setting them back 1 land. Answering the Constructs and tutor target separately (Dress Down + PEnding, Verdict + Needle) costs more resources and makes it that much harder to stay in the game. Fox's argument about planeswalkers is a bigger point against March. But maybe some 2/2 or 3/1 split isn't a bad idea? March answers a few things that PEnding doesn't.
Value engines also helps you come back. Narset doesn't really, though it at least disrupts the draw 3 if you have to crack Standstill. I wouldn't trust Nahiri to save me.
In UW(r) Landstill circa 2010ish, I played Celestial Colonnade. It quickly became too slow for the format, but there were clear advantages to having manlands tap as duals instead of colorless. Evasion helped too. I can see why Tar Pit would be good in UBw.
Have you ever tested Shambling Vent (life gain) or Wandering Fumarole (un-Boltable 4/1) over the years? They're probably too weak, but just curious.
Urza’s saga is a core legacy card and your strategy fundamentally is weak to it. Like 12 post and wasteland (quad needle) or legacy lantern and brainstorm (quad chains?). You need many real answers to it before it makes sense to talk about anything else.
I might be out of the loop, but why are we not playing BANT-plenish? Collosal Skyturtle and Boseiju, Who Endures seems to be the most maindeckable ways of answering the card. Replenish is a big, non-blue must answer card. And skyturtle/shark typhoon/hall of heliod seems like a very resilient engine.
I like wandering emperor. Land still has Eot’d snap plow for a long time after the opponent cracks it, and this is the same thing but a bigger threat and not blastable.
Probably too weak, but Touch the Spirit Realm is another possible include.
The green stuff is hard to support in UWg.
UGw is an option. Boseiju, Skyturtle, Sylvan Library. The mana seems harder to support white removal and Timeless Dragon, which could be a stability issue. Fox?
Green does offer more planeswalker value options that dodge Pyroblast. Calix, Destiny's Hand? Nissa? Garruk? Wrenn and Seven?
Would that just be a worse version of Bant, when Bant gets to run Uro?
In UWr the answers are Alpine Moon, Blood Moon, March, Wasteland, Surgical Extraction, Dress Down, or own Urza's Saga -> Needle @ Saga OR Map -> Heliod -> more Saga.
Does black offer better answers?
I think you can afford a lot more basics in UWg than bant can. You can always play the first boseiju out as a green source for the next ones, and you are only using the regrowth ability of turtle in the lategame. Whereas uro really wants 2 green sources ASAP.
Replenish is also a lot stronger against specifically surgical and red blast than uro is, which is what delver uses to combat it.
The thing is that Wandering Emporer is 4 mana, so it's the same card as Nahiri on 4 mana (dead to Daze). Have to wait 1 more turn on Emporer to hit 5th land, and their attacking dude is tapped, so you're main-phasing Emporer just as you would the Nahiri to downtick and kill.
When you look at the rest of these two walkers you note that Nahiri downtick murders Saga (you're free to cast Standstill and let them play all the Sagas they want to), has wider targets, can shape hand, and can tutor SCM to imitate the downtick of Emporer. If someone plays Saga and threatens to make constructs, good luck shutting that down with Emporer (i.e. good luck having Emporer in play and ever being able to cast Standstill on top of it).
Nahiri will create more issues for an Uro midrange, Grixis Jammy Jams, and UWr MindTwister than making 2/2s into opponents who will have hands full of creature kill spells which lacked targets up to that point. Nahiri can also tutor up legends, which combine with Karakas to punish kill spell users. It's not much of a deckbuilding cost to add 1x Yidaro for instance.
On Karn Scion, it's bad against Delver. Daze problems, and the payoff is you get a 1/1 and it dies to Bolt, yay. Like you've noted, Saga is basically the same thing, just better, faster, less interactive, and recursive (Heliods, Sevinne's).
Shambling Vent is double off-color, so it may as well tap for colorless. Manlands like this increase mulligans. Fumarole costs way to much to animate + has no protection. UR Dreadstill is much more aggressive than any other Standstill deck, and cannot afford to lose the early tempo of a tapped land that won't improve any matchup.
Competitive legacy is key. There is a card called Endurance, and it cannot be ignored. The only correct way to play Replenish is to Burning Wish for the 1x - preferably with Teferi in play. There is no UWG Replenishing, you need 4c at this time.
I don’t see where you are seeing all these endurance’s. The top tables are delver, jeskai, 8cast and reanimator. You don’t need to commit to the replenish, you can bait with hall of heliod until you force action.
Endurance is just one. Replenish still walks harder into all grave hate in a format that has to be prepared for T1 Grief-Griselbrand or T1 Oops into Thassa.
You commit by having -1 hand size all game. That's avoidable with the Wishboard. You don't have to lose a card to Replenish until you force a state where Replenish would be profitable (Wish can be converted into PEnding or Sevinne or trade with a counter for less mana than 3W). Heliod + Sevinne shenanigans are easier to play around hate without committing as much, and Heliod is usually already enough to take over a game.
Ok that’s fair. Heliod + shark typhoon is already a pretty strong engine and Skyturtle provides insurance.
Yeah.
Heliod -> EOT return Standstill
Cast Standstill (if countered, repeat until Standstill sticks)
Cycle Shark
Heliod -> return Shark
Lategame that's already very hard for opponent to deal with. You can arbitrarily outdraw and outbody them. You can hide Shark Typhoon in hand unless Standstill is out, so it's never exposed to grave hate without feeding you free cards as compensation (can't do that with Replenish). Teferi's passive reduces their GY hate interaction window even more. Most of those are uncounterable actions that can be done at instant speed. If they kill Heliod, stuff like Skyturtle and Sevinne can bring it back. Most of the time that's already enough. You can get there through an active Standstill, without having to run 4-mana sorceries that could be dead cards.
While Turtle is cool and all, we've already got everything covered with Sevinne's re-up Heliod, Heliod re-up enchants, Burning Wish gaining another pair of 2 mana plays + re-up Heliod by Wish target Sevinne's + re-up enchants with Wish target Replenish (saving about $450 on doomed to fail copies 2, 3, and 4).
The recursion loops are already set, so why are we grabbing green cards? What are we gaining? Why are we contaminating the best mana in the format? How is our non-Pyroblast'able value engine and lifegain issue being solved? Uro is not a card we play with Standstill, b/c it doesn't work.
Like don't get me wrong, you can play no green mana at all except 4x Boseju in an otherwise strict UW deck and have let's say 1x channel Turtle. The point of the green being purely for Ending's 3rd color and magical christmasland where each turn you have a green mana -> rebuy best card with channel Turtle -> necro Turtle to top of deck with Heliod -> repeat ad nauseum.
^This is a pretty tough ask b/c no problems were solved and we lost Burning Wish & sideboard Blasts....and that loss of Burning Wish means your down a few 2 mana plays and Replenish is gone for good (tack on another $150 penalty).
When you talk about going all in on ReplenishStill, aka Enchantment Reanimator, we should probably take a look at the very dead miner's canary: LED Dredge. We don't need to sleeve up a deck and brew because team Dredge donated their unpaid hours to our stat mine; they failed, so we know *how* not to repeat their mistake.
Now you might have a timing to play yolo-Replenish to some degree of success, but it has nothing to do with the inherent viability of Replenish spamming. What we have right now in legacy is total hand destruction having a narrow window where they can beat Goyf [Murktide] and FIRE [Uro]. Total hand destruction being: Hymn in Grixis and Day's Undoing in UWr MindTwister. Both strategies can one-shot FIRE b/c Uro requires a yard they're exiling with HSR or shuffling away with Day's.
^now let's refine that information:
-Endurance presence skyrockets once Uro comes back.
-Uro is coming back the moment wotc wakes up and realizes Mind Twist and Timetwister are on the banlist, yet somehow Day's (and Echo) aren't...and in either case they act as not just Mind Twist, but also Timetwister at the same time.
-But right now in legacy, today, both Grixis and UWr are suppressing Uro (and thus Endurance)...by nuking graveyards.
-So while it's preferable that the GY wipes 3 cost mana, are sorcery speed, and play into FoN; rather than 0 mana, flash, creature Endurance...it doesn't look good for Replenish spam.
Take all your stats and add every single deck with Day's, Echo, HSR, Endurance and figure out how much is left in the meta...with the understanding that a large chunk of the leftovers are going to play Saga (maindeck Soul-Guide) or will be UR Delver with Daze. There isn't much left of the legacy format for you to predate with Replenish.
I think the reason Green came up is Boseiju, Who Endures cleanly answers Urza's Saga and other problems through Standstill, while the other 4 colors have a harder time doing it without casting spells (Wasteland does too, but Boseiju hits more things). Uro, PEnding, and turtle engine plan A are not the reasons.
Boseiju would require Bant colors instead of red or black. Once already in Bant, 1-of Skyturtle is easy value. It loops with Heliod, casts Petty Theft on land-go strats through Standstill (Marit Lage, Constructs), and eventually wins the game. You lose Wish and Replenish, but Boseiju and Colossal Skyturtle are both 2 mana plays.
What do you gain? Boseiju. Green also offers non-Pyroblastable value engines through Sylvan Library or planeswalkers. Are there any green or GW walkers that are worth it?
I think most of those PWs are Ajannis and/or dude-centric. The best green PW last time I checked is Grist followed by Nissa of the 5/5s. It'd be really tough to beat out Nahiri's ability to spam [-2] exile your Saga. The PW would have to be able to be played, then have a Standstill cast on top of it, and never have to pay attention to hostile Saga.
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