Why do we need planeswalkers when we can answer the opponent's sagas through a standstill?
For engines we can loop anything we want with hall + skyturtle + shark typhoon without breaking standstill.
This isn't true. Jeskai is beating uro decks through the combination of draw hate + exile removal.Originally Posted by Fox
UWR delverblade for 3rd in the Saturday Challenge 0 gy interaction g1, only 1 rip 3 etutor in g2
UWR control for 4th in the Saturday challenge: 0 gy interaction g1, only 2 surgical in g2
The Grixis list in 21st: Only 3 histsegu, but has 7 narset/hullbreacher in g1.
The third deck is a bad example because the HullDay combo nukes graveyards (as well as hands). Plus it has 3 Histsegu.
The other two do run low GY hate. But most Jeskai control with draw hate also runs HullDay.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetyp...-control#paper
This 4c list is on Endurance:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetyp...-control#paper
You say nuking graveyards isn't a thing, yet your primary deck runs 4x MD Leyline... Nuking graveyards is good in this format.
The bigger point here is that Replenish just loses to too many things that are already mainstream in Legacy:
-Wasteland/Daze/Rishadan Port/Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (must resolve 4-mana sorcery)
-Force of Will/Force of Negation/Drown in the Loch (counterable spell costing much tempo)
-incidental GY reshuffling from Echo of Eons combo or HullDay decks
-dedicated graveyard hate (Endurance, Leyline, RiP, Saga-> Soul-Guide, Karn -> Crypt, Crop Rot -> Bog, Ashiok)
-discard effects while Replenish is durdling in hand waiting to be usable
-fast combo where critical turns are before 4 mana
In the early game and mid-game Replenish is -1 hand size (do nothing card you don't want yet), which can be a big disadvantage for stabilizing. Hiding it in the Wishboard is cleaner.
Replenish just doesn't add enough value for the drawbacks and weaknesses it comes with. Heliod + Sevinne already does so much, while coming with more early game flexibility too. Even when you could pull off Replenish, it's often win-more. What matchups would it win that would otherwise be issues?
Meanwhile if opponent sees Replenish then they're definitely boarding in total GY hate like Leylines or prioritize Crypt effects as tutor targets, but they may not do that vs fair blue with just a couple Snapcasters and Heliod thrown in. It can be easier to still cash in those cards for incidental recursion value without painting a big bullseye on the GY.
Let's review how Uro decks work: they tap out and jam like any midrange strategy -> they mill 5 lands from GY to exile with their Uro -> then they Endurance over and over, until every card in their deck is an Endurance, a PW, a counterspell, or a kill spell. This is their end stage inevitability.
To beat Uro midrange, you need to make sure Uro is forced to exile the cards they ideally want to recycle into their deck with Endurance. This is how HSR attacks Uro midrange, they grind their GY into the exile zone -> Uro deck mills out b/c they were unable to leave Endurance enough goodies to recycle.
For UWr-based decks the exile effects targeting Endurance and Uro all helps; this is an easier pathway than Grixis navigating destroy effects and the 2-turn setup of HSR hitting the yards. They [the UWr group] run into problems however b/c Uro decks will have a few subgames to avoid this:
-1: get a Teferi down -> Karakas bounce Uro, usually repeatedly casting from hand.
-2: get to 7 mana, don't pass priority -> get two Uro casts before opponent is in a position to discard a card to deal with an Uro that just drew 2 cards...and when they exile it they can't Surgical it, so we repeat this dance each time a new Uro is found.
-3: play real value engine PWs vs an opponent who has Narset and Teferi and can't keep up.
^These subgames all fold to the 2-in-1 banned effects of MindTwister. The Uro player definitely has to work harder against Plow/Ending than they do vs Grixis, and it's gonna take so long to navigate those subgames vs UWr, that the MindTwister is always going to be found...and the moment it is, it's going to erase the whole [insert number of turns in game] of progress Uro was trying to assemble. This is the absolute endpoint of Uro midrange vs UWr MindTwister.
It is incredibly unfavorable for the Uro side, which is why Uro is declining...which means Endurance from blue decks is also going that direction...but you're talking about playing Replenish versus a bloc of legacy players who are all Uro midrange gamers at their core. They are on Uro [Endurance], or they are on Grixis [HSR], or they are on UWr [Day's]. It's all the same type of player, all on tiny variations of the same deck, and every single one of them murders the GY Replenish was trying to use...and that's all that matters. You can't spam Replenish in 2022.
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On the decks you brought up: Standstill cares very little about what tier 2.5 decks do. Mentor, SFM, America Delver decks are all consistent and underpowered, i.e. consistently underpowered. They still play staples and can win events...but they're playing an outdated 1-card combo, and in the case of America Delver a less-winning color combination of Delver that can't pressure our life total with Bolt.
Standstill/Landstill/Dreadstill are built to compete with Goyf [Murktide], total hand destruction [Hymn, CB, Echo/MindTwister], and FIRE [Uro]. This covers anything tier 2.5 does. ReplenishStill is rocking a solid 0% vs these.
Replenish is not competitive b/c it's trying to roll back to back to back matchups against an ever-dwindling minority of decks. There's no point trying to brew a Replenish spam deck when you can't possibly have a good matchup vs Endurance, Echo, Day's, HSR, Soul-Guide [Saga], or Daze [Delver]. No matter what way the next bans go [Daze, Day's, and/or Echo], Endurance from blue decks is poised to return to it's previous level.
I don't see how 4-mana Flash is somehow weaker to stack interaction than 4-mana sorcery speed. Or even the same?
All 4 mana walkers are weak to mana denial and soft counters. Flash at least lets you try to sneak it in when they're tapped out. Or you can play at EOT, then untap and use mana for something else (Standstill?) before opponent gets a main phase, following the DrawGo plan.
Nahiri always has to wait for the creature to damage you first, while Emperor can kill a creature before it damages you or can ambush block as 2/2. Even if the creature is already damaging you, Flash is still better than sorcery speed for holding up mana and dodging 1 attack (sorcery speed lets the PW be attacked). After Nahiri exile, Nahiri is vulnerable to other attacks (probably dead on 2 loyalty, trading 1-for-1). After Emperor exile, you get to activate another loyalty ability before opponent can attack. You can uptick (try to keep alive) or cash in a 2/2 (2-for-1 before opponent gets an attack step). You made good points about Nahiri murdering enchantments like Saga, but the "tapped" clause does make it awkward against artifacts and creatures, while Flash is useful in many scenarios. I think you're undervaluing Emperor. A lot of players are getting value from it in other decks. I'll test a 1-1 split for now.
So far I've just had multiple games where I ended up burying Nahiri with Brainstorm because I wasn't ready to tap out 4 mana sorcery speed and wanted to hold up mana and instant speed interaction. I like that Wanderer doesn't force you into sorcery speed tap-out lines.
Realistically, all 4-mana walkers are bad vs Daze and Delver, and I board them out anyway. Against Delver my value engine is Saga not expensive PWs. The only walker I keep in is Teferi, because Teferi/Sevinne can still Hymn them for 3 mana by forcing out the Forces. Otherwise I shave the curve down to 1-mana interaction. The PW slot is for grindier matches, not decks with 4 Daze 4 Pyroblast. In that case... maybe 1 Jace is fine? There's still things like Jeskai HullDay or Painter, but a good chunk of decks you want to grind against don't run Pyroblast. Is that good enough? May test out 1 Jace too. Another option is 6-mana Chandra. RR is hard, but it's uncounterable and unPyroblastable.
What I'm saying with Daze is that if I'm against a Delver deck, both are 5 mana PWs. The flash bit matters a bit less this late. If we trace Emporer's best case scenario we save 1 hit and gain 2 life...and then we make a useless 2/2 or have some weird every other turn vigilance elk on a very, very Bolt'able Oko. Otherwise we're looking at flash in -> kill, gain 2 life -> uptick 4x in a row (no targets) -> now the PW can take the 3 from the next Delver/DRC and have enough to downtick and kill it. At some point I'd like to pull ahead.
The other issue is I have about zero faith in Emporer on board to let me play Standstill and feel safe from Saga. I'd be leaving myself with a lot of dubious topdeck risk.
I see Emporer and I'm immediately asking why that isn't a Solitude (if I'm not looking at Nahiri). I'm happy to pick up points vs Lage, Emrakul, and Daze; while gaining late-game magical christmasland lines like EoT Solitude your dude with Teferi passive -> untap lifelink for 3 -> Teferi [-3] Solitude.
Don't you want neither PW vs Delver? Any 4 cmc sorcery is bad there. It's the other matchups that should matter.
True, but that risk is somewhat mitigated by running our own Saga or by green splash with Boseiju. It's a bigger deal without either of those lines.
For UWr, realistically I was not in many board states where I wanted to tap out sorcery speed for Nahiri and then drop Standstill after. It was often awkward to tap out for Nahiri, or I would jam Standstill earlier.
Maybe it should just be Solitude? That would solve UWr's lifegain problem.
Yeah I think solitude is a fine idea.
I think both of you make pretty relevant/correct points about both of the 4 mana walkers (Nahiri / Emperor) being kind of weak cards. I can see Nahiri minus being able to hit Saga as a big upside, but I don't think this is a very reliable play pattern g1
My main problem is that I'm still unconvinced that the "Nonblue Obnixilis" is an effect that the deck strictly needs in g1
I can see playing like 2 Nahiri in the SB as a Obnixilis / Court of Grace type card. Solitude is also not an awful target to get with the ultimate.
I'm having a little trouble picturing the "Green for Boseiju and a value Turtle" concepts, can somebody rough out a list for that?
You take a stock list, cut into the utility land and Ending fraction and cut the basic Mountain. Add 4 Boseju, swap Plateau to Savannah to maintain x+2 Plains where x = 3 Timeless. Make 1 cut for channel Turtle. The deck is no longer able to use red.
I think you can make more changes than that. You can be more shark typhoon reliant when you have uncounterable needle answers, and expedition map means you don’t need the 4th legendary land.
Taking FTWs last list:
Red to green:
Mountain -> forest
Plateau -> Savannah
Lotus field -> 3rd saga
Spike hazard -> boseiju
Nahiri -> emperor
3 blasts -> 3 carpet
1 Alpine Moon -> 1 Pithing Needle
You ain’t afraid of needle anymore:
2 snap -> 2 sharks
1 JTMS -> boseiju
2 bwish -> verdict and a boseiju
1 sevinnes -> turtle
No more wishboard
1 pyroclasm -> 1 seeds of innoncence
1 by force -> 1 Seeds of innoncence
1 sevinnes -> 1 etutor
1 Supreme -> 1 Graftdiggers cage
1 ending -> 1 etutor
//Lands: 25
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
3 Boseiju
3 Urza's Saga
//Spells: 18
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Prismatic Ending
2 Force of Negation
2 Supreme Verdict
//Enchantments: 8
4 Standstill
4 Shark Typhoon
//Creatures: 4
1 Collosal Skyturtle
3 Timeless Dragon
//Planeswalkers: 3
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 The Wandering Emperor
//Artifacts: 2
1 Soul-Guide Lantern
1 Expedition Map
//Sideboard: 15
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Seeds of Innoncence
1 Graffdiggers Cage
1 Cataclysm
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Humility
1 Ethersworn Canonist
This deck should be able to jam standstill into any board state t2, which I assume is needed to make standstill compete with other CA engines. All of our gy interactions are uncounterable and avoid cage.
Thanks for sharing - I think we may have been all imagining slightly different variations of how to add green to the mix, so having concrete lists to discuss helps.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I had pictured for the main, except -2 Shark +2 Sevinne's (or 1 Sevinne's 1 Prismatic/Snapcaster) and a green walker or Solitude over Wandering Emperor. Looks worth testing.
Fox's obsession with Saga into Needle isn't the only problem with 4x Shark. It's also just a clunky card to have early. With both Timeless Dragon and Urza's Saga, plus ways to reuse Shark Typhoon, there's no need to go 4x Shark anymore. The deck has enough threats. 7 cycling finishers is too many, and Dragon is the better one to cycle on turn 2. 2-3 Shark should be fine.
Meanwhile Sevinne's just does so much: Standstill, Teferi, Saga, Heliod, SB cards, fetches. Even if the first cast baits a FoW, the flashback is strong. Unless they used FoN, they have to interact with both uses (2 counters, 1 counter + 1 GY hate, or you get value). It fills a different role than Skyturtle or Replenish, especially in the midgame development. At least 1 Sevinne's seems important.
I hadn't thought about the SB yet. The Saga and ETutor targets seem reasonable. Veil of Summer deserves consideration over 3x Carpet. Although we can use the mana, we also don't struggle with land development vs Delver due to high land count, basics, and Plainscycling. Carpet's timing is a bit awkward compared to when we usually use mana sinks (opponent's end step or combat). Carpet does play well with Sevinne's though. Maybe 2 Veil 1 Carpet?
Edit: 2 Seeds of Innocence seems bad due to GG cost. 1-of Energy Flux is ETutorable. Serenity or Engineered Explosives deserves a look. Serenity does kill our stuff too, but it's tutorable and Heliod can get it back to completely lock out artifact decks.
Edit2: Cataclysm doesn't belong without Burning Wish + Lotus Field or a value planeswalker. The point was to exploit the asymmetry without maindeck variance (Wishboard). Otherwise the effect doesn't help. Lotus Field is still worth considering. Map -> Lotus Field is a strong line against the Wasteland + Port decks.
Yeah, that's what I was playing towards with the Saga tech. Boseiju should help. From past experience with Landstill, the deck shines when it can just jam T2 Standstill on an empty board and know it's in a favored position.
@Reeplcheep we're not really getting anything worthwhile from the entire green color, it is not getting a basic Forest slot. It wouldn't even get a Savannah slot were it not for Timeless Dragon. Prismatic Vista can't get green, but it's fine we have 3 slots of Boseju as the green source for Prismatic Ending; the fixing hasn't been compromised.
Mountain -> Boseju
Plateau -> Savannah
Spikefield -> Boseju
B Wish x2 -> Verdict, Humility
Lotus -> Boseju
-1 Brainstorm or -1 Standstill -> +1 channel Turtle
^Just note that we've lost the utility of Wish and Pyroblast, and have crippled our deck's position vs the meta. Adding more Saga and going to 4x Shark'nado is regressive (this has been discussed exhaustively over the last 2 pages). Any excess slots are going to SCM and Dress Down.
On the SB:
-Humility came to the maindeck
-E Tutor will only ever stay at 1x
-We can no longer use Cataclysm (no Wish and no room for Lotus to exploit the asymmetry)
-Seeds is a bad magic card, and hascolor reqs. We don't have to play Seeds b/c we have white cards, and we have no problem killing a Kappa. We want cast'able cards, in either UW or colorless, and we want them to beat Chalice. Once we know Chalice is out of the equation, we find cards that obliterate the hand of 8cast as they panic-spew Force pitching a draw 2 (or a Kappa). Then we obliterate their hand again on 3 mana with Teferi - and now we have FoW superiority and Verdicts. This is how you beat 8cast, this is how you beat Kappa. We invest money on cards like Serenity or Powder Keg or EE, not Seeds. Note how Powder Keg and EE have text vs Elves, Delver, etc.
-Carpet is a bad magic card. The last thing I need to be drawing when I'm trying fix the battlefield for a Standstill deployment is Carpet. Even worse is resolving Carpet and then topdecking more Carpets. I'd only play 1x Carpet...except I really doubt I'd ever E Tutor for it...so it's not getting a slot. Now if Carpet has extra text like "pay 8 mana, sacrifice, draw 2 cards" then I'd be less hostile to a singleton.
Green is pretty worthless as a SB color when you don't have the critical mass of green cards to pitch-cast Endurance and FoV. I mean I guess you can troll a local meta/small room full of discard spammers with SB Veils, but there isn't much benefit to be had here. 2x Crop Rot and a Bojuka Bog is powerful I guess, but too much loss of SB space. A single Uro is fine vs opponents on slow decks without Wasteland. Doubt I want to board 2x Ice-Fangs. Don't see a reason to have Loam. Flyabolic Edict seems redundant. Sylvan Library would be fine if we somehow had life gain (Uro doesn't work with Standstill). An amount of green cards can beat Thassa by putting cards back into the deck (Noxious, Memory's Journey), but these are super narrow and all basically outclassed by Fractured Sanity. Return to Nature is reasonable. Ground Seal is technically fine. None of this is worth losing red blasts for.
Sure I was just posting so we are talking about something concrete. I don’t think the loss of red sideboard cards is that big compared to the entire premise of your deck not working (standstill + empty board = draw 3) against a third of the meta.
Carpet is generally considered the strongest card in the format against delver and we have plenty of mana sinks. Sure maybe I went over board on sharks. I like being able to run harrder hate in cage; maybe more turtles instead of sevinnes? Removal spell for creatures through standstill seems helpful.
I’m fine if you cut the forest to help enable verdict. I don’t understand the point of a etutor package if you are only running 1 etutor. Why not just run more of the best effects?
I think the discussion is ultimately this - is having maindeck access to Boseiju (and Turtle) worth giving up on the Burning Wish package and blasts (and Spikefield Hazard)?
Tweaking the mana to make either work is doable
I agree Carpet is bad here. Carpet is good vs Delver for every other deck that lacks adequate mana development, to fight Daze + Wasteland. Landstill is already designed to have stable mana vs Delver and build towards mana superiority, and it doesn't want sorcery speed mana dumping like Uro decks do. Lands.dec doesn't board in Carpet either.
If we're losing REB, I can't imagine not having Veil. It's the closest thing to compensation. You lose the Vindicate mode, but Veil has other edges in counter wars. Trolling Hymn decks is just a secondary mode.
What's wrong with 1-of Loam? With Saga and Boseiju, there's a lot of value land going to the graveyard. Then you might want SB Crop Rot into Bog too. You can't Loam through Standstill, but opponent also cannot Surgical your Loam through Standstill (replace 1 of the draws with Dredge). 1-of Wrenn and Seven could add to a land engine.
There might be some other walker or enchantment that makes Sylvan Library viable. Haven't looked through the GW card pool enough.
Seems bad for the Saga builds, due to anti-synergy with Constructs and other wincons. Why not keep in SB as a tutor target?
I like Turtle, but Sevinne's does fill a different role even though the cards look similar. Turtle returns to hand. Sevinne's returns to the battlefield. Turtle is good for slow grindy recursion through an active Standstill. Sevinne's is better tempo for building towards an advantageous position in the midgame, before deploying Standstill. For 3 mana you can try to put Teferi on the battlefield, discard 2 blue cards from opponent's hand, ramp +1 land, ramp & return utility lands, or put Standstill back in play. Most of those lines develop your board position and progress you towards a place where you can cast the 5-mana flashback for more value. It's a flexible card that almost always finds a way to push you forwards.
Engines like Turtle shine more in the late game or if you get into a staring contest after slamming T2 Standstill, but they're bad tempo in that midgame when you're trying to stabilize or develop. At least 1 Sevinne's seems good. Try it out. We can still run the SB Cage.
4 colors is not stable. It might be doable, but forcing 4 colors without Astrolabe (banned) will destabilize the mana and create other weaknesses where Landstill would have been strong. For example, you can't rely on SB red blasts vs Delver if they can just waste you off the 4th color. Better to focus on just 1 splash. So it comes down to whether Boseiju outweighs the red tech.
The thing about channel Turtle is that is isn't removal (unless you're hitting a token). You still need to answer the problem, so you're down a card and you need a second card to actually answer what you bounced, versus an opponent who has the same number of cards. This is why Brazen Borrower is a really poor use of a slot in Standstill decks. It's the same reason O-Ring effects are pointless, b/c you know the opponent is going to get their thing back [they're gonna play Teferi, Boseju, Ending, Skyclave, shatter-bear, Otawara, Brazen, FoV, etc]. You can't win as a control deck if you're gifting opponents blowouts like these. The real question is why we are doing this green detour when we just moved an Island to an Otawara, which can protect PWs and pick up our Standstill if we have to (on top of being a mana source if we need one). We didn't have to cut a hard-kill spell (or access to one via Burning Wish) to make room for this effect when it's on a land.
When you look at new things like channel Turtle, it's important to remember that Sevinne's is basically legacy-legal Yawg Will; and we're not cutting our Yawg Will, even though the channel mechanic is hard to interact with. The Turtle-Heliod uber late game loop can at least impersonate Yawg Will, but it takes so long to unlock, and adding more Turtle does not make it happen anywhere near the 3 mana mark of Sevinne's.
On E-Tutor, there are many cards in magic where that card can take over the game. The worst enemy of such cards is drawing additional copies of themselves. Cards like Vial, Aluren, Opposition, Carpet, RiP in Helmerator, etc... The whole point of E Tutor is to increase the effective copies of effects like these without ever killing yourself by flooding. While E Tutor is powerful, flooding out on it isn't. So while one E Tutor can make up for lost CA by finding the perfect card, drawing multiple E Tutors is very likely to kill you with unsustainable levels lost CA. Also, it costs 1 mana, and if you play multiple you are increasingly rewarding opponents for playing Chalice-type effects.
Diversity is the key in control. We don't need to overkill one narrow thing; instead we need to complete a checklist. First things first: don't die to Goyf [Murktide], don't die to total hand destruction [Hymn, CB, Echo, MindTwister], don't die to FIRE [Uro].
After that the legacy control checklist is easy: don't die to untargetables, don't die to Burn, don't die to E-Bridge, don't die to Thassa, don't die to mana tampering (Wasteland, Daze, Port, Thalia, Moon, etc), don't die to SnT, don't die to Marit Lage, don't die to Saga, don't die to GY-using combos, don't die to stack-using combos (storm), don't die to Cavern/Vial, don't die to Sol land/Chalice, don't die to go-wide dudes, don't die to recursive spells (Loam/Pfire), and like a couple other minor things. This last part of the checklist is pretty easy to fill out, and that's how you make a competitive deck - focus on having agency.
Agency comes from having access to a single E Tutor targeting things like Ethersworn, Humility, Standstill, Shark'nado, Nodes, EE, Keg, Stony, Torpor, Relic/Soul-Guide, RiP, B2B, Alpine Moon, and so on. Agency can also come from Burning Wish and Karn wish. Having the ability to find a tool doesn't matter if you don't run the tool you need...and it really doesn't help if the search effect is sabotaging it's own efficacy by flooding out on extra copies of itself...while also taking slots from the effect you needed to tutor. This is the worst kind of double whammy.
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@FTW Veil is great at brutalizing enemy FoW/FoN, and it's reasonable at clearing the way for Ending target Teferi (ofc they're up a card and we're down 2 cards, so that won't end well)...but it has a really low floor when we need to create a favorable scenario to cast Standstill. Like if your hand is a Standstill you can't currently cast, and then you draw a Veil...That's a variance positive deckbuilding choice with a high ceiling and a low floor. This is at a time when the card making Standstill uncastable could easily be MurkGoyf, and if that Veil was a Pyroblast, we'd be winning that game by having the agency to force the opponent to trade resources on our terms.
On W7, I have no interest in activating that [+1] unless I am forced into a corner and need to spin the wheel to hit a Sevinne's or a Timeless. There are significant cmc and green pip problems, but if you mash that [+1] button you are not control; you are either going to mill out, lose to yard hate, mill over a critical effect you'll never get back, and so on. That effect also comes online at cmc 2 with Azcanta and Library. If Wrenn was 5 mana to make a hexproof unblockable dude that phases out when Dress Down is cast, I'd consider it. If we built for double green pips, it kinda needs to be Nissa of the 5/5s (but that requires Lotus Field for the 'whoops 5/5 hexproof PW-kill' cheese). For many of the same reasons I dislike Loam, and would rather have a Crucible in the board I could see with E Tutor in a postbaord game, for instance.
Saga and Humility is fine. Saga makes a two dudes, and we can recur it (Map -> Heliod). I'm willing to take the bet that the opponent can't keep up under Humility; and I'm also willing to bet that anyone else using Saga is more all-in on it (bigger constructs). We also have Timeless to make 2x dudes [hardcast and eternalize] and Shark'nado token spam. It's all about quantity, not quality. The thing about FIRE is that they must cast FIRE, and that FIRE needs to do what it says in the text box. Humility and Standstill are the perfect counters to the illegitimate nature of wanton power creep.
Dress Down wipes constructs. Humility makes them 1/1s. Casting Dress Down at constructs protected by Humility does nothing.
^The real payoff though is when they attack my Teferi on 1 loyalty while I have 2 mana up and Humility in play. You best believe I'm cycling Shark'nado for 0 to block with my brand new 1/1 shark. This is so soul-crushing that they usually concede on the spot. This is so much more fun than derping someone out with SnT or Grisel.
The point is removal through standstill, which is why the borrower example is not appropriate. Its closer to a maze of Ith that can be pitched to fow. It’s not card disadvantage if they have to crack standstill to put it back into play. you have verdicts, Plowshares and endings if standstill is not in play; do you really need more efficient removal in that situation?
The ability to cast standstill into 1 on board threat is very valuable. For example t1 plains, go t1 volc delver, eot plow delver they daze. With turtle you can just go island standstill, whereas that play is too risky otherwise unless you have dragon and a bunch of lands in hand.
I don’t understand how you plan to beat saga with a 4 mana bounce spell. We have already many other ways to stabilize at 4 or 5 mana. The important thing is having immediate and cheap answers like boseiju and turtle.
Say your opponent has a port, a plains and a vial. Can you really spend 2 on a wish and then 1 or 2 on the ending? Then you have to deal with all the other things s they poop out in the meantime while standstill is rotting in your hand. Whereas the green build can just jam standstill, boseiju the vial and there are no more threats except maybe a mom.
Last edited by Reeplcheep; 04-21-2022 at 09:27 AM.
Definitely didn't mean you can make both work! have to pick one color and it honestly feels like it's close depending on what decks you expect to face.
I think the red splash is more understood which is why I'm interested in fleshing out the green splash and seeing where that gets us. At the end of the day, red may still be better but its worth exploring in my mind. Red Blasts are not easily replaceable, as it has 2 modes.
We do want to keep in mind that we can't really cast anything that costs more than a single G, especially before turn 5, which rules out things like Seeds of Innocence (or even just say Courser of Kruphix)
On specific green cards:
Sylvan Library is powerful but we likely would rarely draw more than 1 card from it so its probably not worth trying to fit in. The only obvious life gain I see we might want to run Is Shadowspear maybe? Not sure if that makes sense
I agree Carpet of Flowers is significantly less valuable here than in other decks because the role it fills to gain mana vs Delver just isn't needed.
Life from the Loam is a little awkward with an active standstill, but if we're getting value out of the graveyard with a mix of Dragons, Hall, Turtle etc it can still be worth dredging it for value even if its not castable through Standstill. Feels like it might be a win-more with all the other existing long game value engines already in the deck but I wouldn't totally rule it out yet
Crop Rotation is interesting, its instant speed Bojuka Bog and also finds various value lands already in the deck when relevant (Karakas, Urza's Saga, Hall of Heliod's Generosity). Might allow for Field of the Dead somewhere as another long game value engine / win condition? (with some snow basics mixed in)
Veil of Summer Is the closest red blast replacement we have, but it only covers the stack half (while having some added value vs discard). Probably need to find another card to cover the "destroy" half of the blast functionality.
Some other cards that I have not seen mentioned yet:
Ground Seal Decent GY hate but shuts down our engines. Not worth it.
Drop of Honey isn't really new because we already have Porphyry Nodes in white already
Endurance GG and we don't have enough green spells to support the alternate cost
All the green planeswalkers seem underwhelming.
Edit: Really rough list with some of the ideas discussed in this thread and thoughts outlines in my post (knowing Field might be too cute but jammed it into this list for now):
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Island
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Tundra
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Flooded Strand
1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
3 Boseiju, Who Endures
1 Otawara, Soaring City
1 Karakas
3 Urza's Saga
1 Colossal Skyturtle
3 Timeless Dragon
1 Solitude
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Force of Negation
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Prismatic Ending
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Sevinne's Reclamation
1 Expedition Map
1 Soul-Guide Lantern
4 Standstill
2 Shark Typhoon
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
Sideboard:
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Crop Rotation
1 Dress Down
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Field of the Dead
1 Humility
1 Pithing Needle
1 Powder Keg
1 Soul-Guide Lantern
2 Veil of Summer
Edit #2 - a more streamlined version without trying to get too cute:
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Tundra
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Flooded Strand
1 Hall of Heliod's Generosity
3 Boseiju, Who Endures
1 Otawara, Soaring City
1 Karakas
3 Urza's Saga
1 Colossal Skyturtle
3 Timeless Dragon
1 Solitude
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Force of Negation
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Prismatic Ending
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Sevinne's Reclamation
1 Expedition Map
1 Soul-Guide Lantern
4 Standstill
2 Shark Typhoon
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
Sideboard:
2 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Dress Down
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
1 Powder Keg
2 Veil of Summer
1 Supreme Verdict
2 ?
Last edited by alphastryk; 04-21-2022 at 12:58 PM.
Yeah, that's similar to Reep's list and looks like a good start. Before fine-tuning slots, I think the big question is if green can offer anything other than Boseiju to justify the color.
OK, W7 is too slow and not enough value. Crop Rot package is probably not good enough without other land tech in the deck (Loam, Crucible).
I think 1 Loam deserves a look because it critically puts Boseiju and Otawara back in hand, instead of onto the battlefield. Crucible can't do that. I wouldn't mindlessly dredge Loam here like other decks do (and that doesn't work through Standstill anyway). But we can still use it as a "1G - Draw 3" (Standstill #5), bringing back Saga + Boseiju + fetchland or something like that. Reusing Boseiju and Saga is good long-term value. Then we can just leave Loam in the GY until we need it again. Playing Loam into Standstill guarantees land drops and non-spell tech to use through Standstill. Meanwhile that Loam in GY is safe, because if opponent tries to exile it then Standstill gets cracked and Loam goes back to hand. You don't have to go all-in on Loam. 1-2 value casts could be good.
Once on Loam, 1 Lotus Field and the Crop Rot package are easier to support. Lotus Field then enables Nissa.
Even without REB there are plenty of answers to Murktide. StP, Verdict, Humility, Soul-Guide, Teferi bounce, Skyturtle bounce, Shark ambush... Sure, we have even more answers to murder Murktide with REB, but it shouldn't be a huge weakness. We could further make up for lost REB with 1-2 Run Afoul. That helps with Murktide while also picking up win% vs stuff like Marit Lage and Reanimator. That leads to more draw variance vs UR Delver (Veil + Run Afoul vs 1 card that does both), but also adds value vs black decks where REB does nothing.
I don't necessarily agree with only 1 ETutor, but even 1 copy adds much value. You could play 2 Ethersworn Canonist or 1 Canonist + 1 ETutor and have the same access to the SB effect either way. As soon as you add a 2nd target, that 1 ETutor both saves SB space and increases card selection. Why play 2 Canonist + 2 Humility + 2 EE when you could play 1 ETutor + 1 Canonist + 1 Humility + 1 EE + 2 other cards? Control would much rather have a mix of 1-of powerful specific answers than have to play 2-3x each effect just to ever see it.
For example, why bother trying to draw into multiple copies of Seeds of Innocence and gift 20 life to the Kappa+Thought Monitor player to draw into more threats when ETutor->Serenity followed by Saga->Map->Heliod basically locks them out of the game, and costs barely any space in the 75? Or you can play 1 Keg/EE and have a slot that helps against tribal aggro too.
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