Anyone else want to play new Leovold in here? Seems pretty good...
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
I'm considering it. It depends at bit on how good he is outside blue matchups. Will probably test like a 2-off.
Well, Leovold:
-Basically makes Standstill one-sided.
-Makes Rishadan Port terrible.
-Gives value back from their wastelands.
-Works insanely well with spellskite as protection.
-In conjunction with Mindbreak Trap is decent against Tendrils of Agony.
-Is a 3-Drop in a Counterbalance deck.
Also, he makes me want to play Notion Thief in the board.
Last edited by Secretly.A.Bee; 09-05-2016 at 03:12 PM.
Well, diminishing the effectiveness of waste and port is a somewhat moot point as Leovold is quite expensive and requires 3 colors of mana... but it could be good.Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Spellskite is not a Legacy card I think.
Flusterstorm should be the best card in conjunction with him, as it is good vs Tendrils, but also other combo decks.
Notion Thief is cute, but almost only good against Shardless.
All in all, he could be solid, but I definitely need to test him in this shell before knowing for sure. He has to prove his worth basically :p
You are entitled to your opinion.
He's not very expensive in a list with 24 lands and 4 Deathrite. A turn 2 leovold will be a fairly common play. Try not to think of cards in the terms of formats, but rather in situations.
Obviously you play flusterstorms. You also play Blue Elemental Blasts to fend off bolts and REBs that will be aimed immediately at his head.
Honestly, this guy is probably the most underrated card printed in Conspiracy 2.
Edit: I missed where you spoke about Notion Thief. He's better against Brainstorm and Griselbrand than anything else. He *may* be too cute, but if you are giving Leovold a "chance" in the main, it's basically hypocrisy to not give Thief one in the board, as they function similarly in strategy.
He is easy to play with Deathrite yes, but having DRS early and having it survive is not super common. 24 Lands isn't really correct either as colorless sources cannot cast him. So it might be a bit tough to get him out early vs waste/port decks. When we do get him out he will be good however.
I don't think of cards in format-categories per se, but I do however have a pretty established baseline for how good cards must be for me to include them in my lists. As this isn't a dedicated Leovold deck (we are talking about 2-3 copies max) then all other cards must be good on their own. And Spellskite just isn't good on its own in legacy, the power level of the card is just not there compared to what other decks are doing. The same goes for BEBs really. It pretty weak in most situations where you don't have Leovold, so it is hard to justify it. Most REBs will also be pointed at Leo on the stack, not while he is in play.
How do you mean underrated? I see people talk about him all the time, but maybe more in other forums, I dunno.
Anyway, I have 2 copies on the way, will see how he performs in the coming weeks.
The Lands matchup is atrocious (lost 3-0). I'm playing 4 leovold right now, and I disagree with you on land count, but I do with most people, so I won't get into that at this point. One more land *could* be a possibility, but as of now it's staying as I haven't had a problem with it. So far I have handily crushed Enchantress (lol, Leovold made that deck sick hard) and 4c Delver (I got lucky, he had 3 delver at the same time out early 1 game and they never flipped before I found a Deed and wiped the board. I often win with <3 life.
Been trying out Leovold in my GoyfStill deck for some time now and I have sadly reached the conclusion that he isn't very good in such a reactive deck. My version wants to tap out turns 1-2 but tapping down all mana on turn 3 is so innefective and leaves me vaulnarable to too many things. I think he would be much better in more tap-out versions of this deck.
Will replace him with a clique instead, and a Library.
My current list:
CREATURES (12)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
ENCHANTMENTS (5)
4 Standstill
1 Sylvan Library
SORCERIES (1)
1 Life from the Loam
INSTANTS (19)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
2 Dismember
1 Disfigure
LANDS (23)
4 Mishra’s Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disfigure
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Wasteland
1 Pithing Needle
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
Leovold doesn't just get shoved into the deck, you have to make a fee changes, and I must say I'm not a huge fan of your list. You don't play CB OR Pernicious Deed, and historically speaking the deck often runs both. All blue disruption main feels weak, it would be better to move your Thoughtseizes to the main and board into more blue disruption in the matchups that it's best against. One of the best turn 1 plays that doesn't go "land, DRS" is Thoughtseize with FoW and blue card. Why play a 2nd Dismember over a 1st Maelstrom Pulse?
Your lands matchup is undoubtedly terrible, with your only true interactions being surgicals and Needle, which I must say is pretty shoddy, and other than goyfs, I'm not very sure how you are winning against Eldrazi, if in fact you are...
Leovold has been strong for me, but I play 0 Goyfs and am running an intuition to grab little combos that are good in certain matchups, since I can often do so on turn 2 if I draw it. So far the main things I do are as follows:
1 LftLoam
1 Baleful Strix
1 Academy Ruins
This is for playing against Eldrazi, mostly, but it can also be an eternal wall against a Marit Lage *if* they don't deal with your Academy Ruins, but it's pretty big if...
1 LftLoam
1 Wasteland
1 Mishra's Factory
This is my favorite package as its recurring disruption and threat all in one.
2x ??? (Instant/sorcery)
1, Snapcaster Mage
This is Demonic Tutor mode.
Anyway, my thoughts...
Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
No one claimed that to be the case. Of course you have to take the surrounding deck into consideration. However, what I wanted to test was his stand-alone power level in a reactive BUG Shell. I was not very impressed.
What do you mean to say with this? You don't like the deck because I don't include cards that where good in 2011-2012? CB (Assume you mean Counterbalance?) is pretty unplayable outside of Miracles, and Pernicious Deed hasn't been good for... I don't even know, before Abrupt Decay and Deluge maybe? Arguments like "these low-power level cards has been played historically so you should totally include them" are generally not very impressive.
The deck you are describing is the Tap-out version of BUG. Those decks should also totally play Visions and Shardless Agent and have their own strengths and weaknesses, and their own thread. This deck is less grindy, but also much more mana efficient and much better against combo decks. Standstill is also much better alongside reactive cards as you can draw into those with Standstill while the opponents spell is still on the stack.
Is this a serious question? Have we really come to the point where we have to discuss the merits of 1-mana removal vs 3-mana removal? This deck has decays and a lot of manlands, which means it's adept at dealing with most non-creature permanents and planeswalkers, the thing those dismembers mostly get pointed at are powerful t1 creatures like DRS/Mom, Gurmags and Reality Smashers. Pulse is super clunky vs most of those threats, while also Sorcery speed. It belongs in shardless.
The lands matchup is pretty fine I think. I have DRS, Loam, Clique, wasteland, pressure, basics, disruption, and post board also Needle, Crucible, Surgicals and more wastelands. I don't see how it could be terrible and it has been tight the few times I've faced the deck. I don't know if you underestimate this deck or overestimate the lands deck here, the matchup is definitely not "undoubtedly terrible". Eldrazi is sometimes tough, but goyfs and mishras and dismembers are good vs it, and I improve a lot post board when I get to cut most counterspells.
Those kinds of Intuition packages were pretty common about year 2012 or something. Glad to see that someone still appreciates that form of durdling. :p
I haven't been thrilled with Leovold in a BUG midrange/control shell yet, (even without Shardless Agent), but I'm glad people are trying him out in other shells. I'm also glad that other people are finally running Crucible in a BUG shell, because that card is great. One thing I've been tempted to try it with is Cabal Pit, but it hasn't quite worked in Shardless. Thoughts?
Crucible is really sweet with all the manlands and wastelands. It's nice to have an additional Loam effect without having to risk drawing several loams or getting them surgicaled. Plus it's a cool card :)
I did play Cabal Pit frequently a couple of years ago. I think it's good in very dedicated Loam/Crucible decks, but I think its value is reduced in the type of deck that this deck (and other midrange BUG decks) are: normal decks that happen to play Loam. Because then it competes a lot with normal mana sources and other, maybe more powerful utility lands like CTP, Mishras, and wasteland. Maybe it could be worth it in a more black/green build?
That's similar to what I found, though having that effect on a card that's otherwise useful and has the benefit of being a colorless non-spell is something that would really benefit BUG. Alas, maybe it juat doesn't work.
3-1 with the deck list above tonight. Won against Miracles, UG 12post and Storm. Lost to Elf beatdown, with Dwyen's Elite and playset Shaman of the Pack xD. Did get stuck on 1 land vs choke game 2 though, so variance definitely played a part there.
Would make no changes to the decklist right now.
Another week, another 3-1 at the LGS. Deck is gas, so fun to play. Beat UWR Delver, OmniSneak and UB Thopter Helmline. Lost to Dark Maverick.
Eldrazi is picking up in popularity in Stockholm though, might have to squeeze in a couple of strixes in the 75.
Another 3-1 tonight. Won vs Eldrazi, Pox and Grixis Delver. Lost to miracles, mostly because of lackluster draws from my part and powerful sequences from his side. Still think that mathup is favoured.
The list feels very good, I incorporated some strixes for some extra insurance against Eldrazi and they were pretty great.
Current list:
CREATURES (12)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
ENCHANTMENTS (5)
4 Standstill
1 Sylvan Library
SORCERIES (1)
1 Life from the Loam
INSTANTS (19)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
2 Dismember
1 Disfigure
LANDS (23)
4 Mishra’s Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Baleful Strix
1 Disfigure
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Wasteland
1 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless
Cheers.
Edit: Props to the Stockholm Legacy scene atm, we had 46 players yesterday which was really nice.
Last edited by LarsLeif; 10-13-2016 at 10:58 AM.
Took the above list to a local tournament yesterday. 5 rounds of swiss followed by top 8. The deck felt super good and I won the whole thing. Don't have time to write a complete report, but here are matchups and some boarding advise.
Matcups:
2-0 DnT
2-0 Eldrazi
2-1 Belcher
ID with Grixis Control
0-2 RG Lands
Top8: 2-1 Grixis Control
Top4: 2-1 RG Lands
Finals: 2-0 Eldrazi
I have been championing this config for a while now, but the deck is very real and there are so few bad matchups. Especially Eldrazi feels very good. Try it out! :)
How I boarded in the matchups:
DnT:
-4 Force -2 CS -2 Standstill
+2 Toxic +2 Seize +1 Needle +1 Crucible +1 Wasteland +1 Disfigure (Garruk might be worth it on the play)
Eldrazi:
-4 Force -2 CS
+2 Strix +1 Crucible +1 Wasteland +1 Garruk +1 Seize
Belcher:
-2 Decay -2 Dismember -2 Wasteland -1 Disfigure -1 Loam
+2 Seize +2 Pierce +2 Surgical +2 Toxic
RG Lands:
-4 Standstill -2 Dismember -1 Disfigure
+2 Surgical +2 Pierce +1 Crucible +1 Wasteland +1 Needle
Grixis Control (Pyromancers + Snapcasters etc)
-4 Force
+2 Seize + 1 Garruk +1 Pierce (thought he had Gurmags, but later he showed me he had TNNs, so in hindsight cutting 2 Dismembers for 2 Deluge might have been better)
Will gladly answer any questions :=)
Gratz!
I've been playing a similar list for a while. I use a different creature suite MD:
- 4 Goyf
- 1 Clique
+ 1 SCM
The changes are mostly based on the fact that dont own any Goyfs, but I dont like tapping out after T1 anyway.
This makes my Eldrazi matchup more difficult, but still managable. My biggest issue with this deck is that we dont have any answers to Marit Lage.
I have been trying out Mystic Confluence for this :-) Do you board in Strixes vs Lands for chumpblocking duty?
Marit Lage is tough if it resolves. But, no, I don't board Strixes, my answer to Marit Lage is simply not to let them get to it. Wasteland + Loam/Crucible + Needle naming Stage is good enough I think. :)
And yes, goyfs are super expensive. But they are soooo good in this deck I think. They are potent blockers and enable us to close the game out quickly. Also very good vs eldazi and grixis which are very common these days.
I also think that one of the srtenghts of a standstill deck is that we don't really have to play expensive haymakers like mystic confluence, we can just play effecient, good cards, and standstill can be our haymaker.
If you don't have goyfs but want to go my route I think you can replace them with strixes, and play maybe another Clique in the board. Probably worse overall, but it might be solid.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote