June 1st B/R Discussion

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Why? Seeing three extra cards in Legacy isn't nearly as good as in Vintage. In Legacy combo, Brainstorm doesn't say 'I win' nearly as much. In Vintage, it gave them a ten card starting hand to find all of the broken restricted cards that allow them to win.

[Internet Hate Machine]

Brainstorm simply is not broken in legacy. I cant see any real reason to ban it, theres nothing unbalanced or too powerful about it here.

[FoolofaTook]

Because the DCI basically said 3 things:

1. It's very powerful and has been on the edge of being restricted in Vintage forever.

2. It's present in every final 8 in multiple decks and this has been true forever.

3. It puts blue over the top in terms of power in the format and this has been true forever.

All 3 things could be said easily about Brainstorm in Legacy. The integration of Brainstorm into combo decks that only splash blue for it and Mystical Tutor just makes it more likely to get banned in my opinion.

Rhetorical question: how often is Brainstorm not a 4-of in at least half the top 8 of a tourney?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

1. It's very powerful and has been on the edge of being restricted in Vintage forever.

Legacy ≠ Vintage.

2. It's present in every final 8 in multiple decks and this has been true forever.

The same can be said about duals, fetches, and Force of Will.

3. It puts blue over the top in terms of power in the format and this has been true forever.

Blue isn't over the top. If it was over the top, it would be a problem.

[HSCK]

I have rhetorical question, how often is Goyf a 4-of? If there's one card that has changed the format it's Goyf, not Brainstorm and since it's nowhere near being banned (un)fortunately I think that serious discussion of Brainstorm's banning in Legacy is a knee-jerk that'll dislocate a hip.

[DeathwingZERO]

Brainstorm won't be banned in Legacy. We have no trump cards like Vintage does. They can Brainstorm right into Ancestral, Walk, and Will. I guarantee you that any deck packing those 3 cards would win as soon as that is seen.

The sad thing is, they wouldn't even need that busted a play. Brainstorming into Lotus, Demonic Tutor, and a Mox of any type is just as busted. It pretty much comes down to Brainstorm being Ancestral 2-5, when the 2 cards going back means very little to the player. We just don't have that much power here in Legacy.

And enough about Goyf. Seriously, the guy is an overpowered vanilla creature. If Legacy has no risk of banning ANY affinity piece, Goyf isn't even close to the watch list yet. He's good, he's format warping, but he's nowhere near degenerate.

[Nihil Credo]

I don't play much Vintage, but I had the impression that Forcing a Brainstorm was far from uncommon in that format; whereas in Legacy, while sometimes correct, it's still an unusual play.

[freakish777]

3. It puts blue over the top in terms of power in the format and this has been true forever.

Their argument for banning was that it put blue Combo decks over the top. Would Vintage Gifts decks have been as good as they were without 4 Brainstorm? Flash decks? GushStorm decks? Vintage is at a point where banning the current combo isn't enough. They've achieved critical mass due to the fact that cards like Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, Tinker, and Yawgmoth's Will aren't banned.

Brainstorm is only as broken as the cards it can get you.

The very nature of Vintage is brokenness (no bannings), so eventually Brainstorm will be broken in that format (simply looking at how long the restricted list should have given you an estimation of when Brainstorm would be restricted in Vintage).

My argument then is that Brainstorm will almost never be a candidate for banning in Legacy when you could just ban the broken cards instead.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Brainstorm is only as broken as the cards it can get you.

Non-argument. That's like saying Yawmoth's Will or Ancestral Recall are only as broken as the cards they draw you. Brainstorm just happens not to be that excessively broken.

[TrialByFire]

Non-argument. That's like saying Yawmoth's Will or Ancestral Recall are only as broken as the cards they draw you. Brainstorm just happens not to be that excessively broken.

Well thats exactly what he is saying and he is right. Recalling into 3 shitty cards is not good. Willing when your deck doesn't contain good cards usually means nothing. Those cards are only good because of the power level of the format. If you put Yawgmoth's Will into Type 2, it would pretty much be a black Recollect. Not that great.

[Shawon]

Well thats exactly what he is saying and he is right. Recalling into 3 shitty cards is not good. Willing when your deck doesn't contain good cards usually means nothing. Those cards are only good because of the power level of the format. If you put Yawgmoth's Will into Type 2, it would pretty much be a black Recollect. Not that great.

Exactly, same reasoning on why Regrowth is restricted in Vintage and untouched in Legacy. (i.e. Recurring Recalls)

[Timmy, Power Gamer]

Well thats exactly what he is saying and he is right. Recalling into 3 shitty cards is not good. Willing when your deck doesn't contain good cards usually means nothing. Those cards are only good because of the power level of the format. If you put Yawgmoth's Will into Type 2, it would pretty much be a black Recollect. Not that great.

Well, when it was in Type 2 (at a time when Dark Ritual was in Type 2), it was good, but no where near busted the way it is Type 1. A good use for it would be, play Will, replay a ritual, replay a spell and then Vampiric Tutor. Strong, but not game winning. And then, there were plenty of times it acted as a Regrowth, too.