I rofled. Let them cry.
I laughed when i read this. If that happens, Goblins might be dominant somewhere again! (Unless Vintage starts playing Goyf)Originally Posted by Brehn
One big *shrug* followed by a sighed *meh* and that's it!
On the other hand this B/R update might stop people from complaining about the lack of changes in Legacy. They could've fucked up our format too =)
Sneaky Pirates of Doom - Not really a Legacy Team anymore.
wow never seen a whole engine getting ripped... flash, gush, and scroll would've been healthy, but that is insane.
Most scary thing is... they can also do this to Legacy, at any time. This is really freaking me out, the thought of Legacy without, say, LED, Brainstorm and Ponder. Holy shit... :/
They should just ban Island, instead of restrincting things until Skullclamp is broken again.
"In general admittedly the Wise of all times have always said the same thing, and the fools, that is to say the vast majority of all times, have always done the same thing, i.e. the opposite; and so it will remain in the future."
Schopenhauer
When Toad said BS and Ponder should be banned I actually didn't take it seriously...
Now, I'm GLAD I didn't buy some P9 yet.
It is going to shake up the format, but it's hardly the hit we took in 2004. We lost entire decks, these guys have lost cards that should have been restricted years ago.
Brainstorm is just as good as any given tutor in Vintage, and an instant at that. You don't net anything, but the fact that you see 3 new cards is still too good for the format.
We (Vintage) guys knew Merchant was going to get chopped for months now, it's DT #s2-5 in Vintage. Seriously, it fetches any card from your deck eventually, through Gifts, Ancestral etc. No surprise there.
Flash and Gush? Obviously needed the hit. Neither made the format any more fun, nor did they bring about any creativity. I can't honestly say I'm upset either is gone. Would have liked a little more time to see Gush in action around here though.
Ponder, that's probably the only one I'm still not sure about. It digs and can reshuffle and at worst is still a cantrip. I can't say it's dangerous, but with Brainstorm gone, there's a good chance it would have been put to an auto-include of 4. Maybe.
Either way, we didn't lose any decks from it. At least nothing we weren't already expecting to lose (Flash and GAT/Gush Storm). Restricting Scroll and Brainstorm just seemed to be obvious choices.
I'm really confused nothing was touched with Ichorid though. Guess we'll just have to see how things go.
And honestly, I wouldn't be shocked in the least if by the end of the year Bazaar and Workshop are hit by the restriction hammer. They deserve it just as much as anything that was hit this time.
I think they missed the REALLY dangerous blue cards - Serum Visions and Opt, not to mention Impulse...
georgjorgeGeistreich sind schon die anderen.
Now I want to see them reprint Brainstorm in 11th edition.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
I remember the arguments that came up when Flash was errated. Particularly, how many 'Legacy experts' trickled in from the Vintage forums. As Spatula can remember, the arguments with Lancer on the WotC forum were particularly fun. Something about exposing the glaring inconsistencies in their arguments was most enjoyable. And irony. Irony is funny.
But back to something more on topic: Yeah, major changes like that are going to be rough. I suppose I could say I sympathize with them...a little.
Umm..
So I still mull to bazaar and get to win in addition of not having to think?
Why not ditch FoW while we're at it?
I like the changes. Decks don't start with 4 BS, 4 Ponder, 4 Merchant Scroll, 4 Gush, 4 FoW anymore (plus Moxen, Lotus, recall, lands, that's already half a deck). Deck construction is actually relevant now.
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
I swear to fucking god, there will be no talks about what should be banned in Legacy in this thread - specifically, griping about a vanilla green beater. I will warn the shit out of anyone who goes there.
well as for the vintage b/r,i could care less seeing as we have almost no vintage in my area(almost no legacy either for that matter,albany- saratoga ny area if you cared) but maybe this is what legacy needed to get more players
Gush was necessary. Period.
Scroll and Flash (in that order) are okay to be restricted.
Brainstorm was unnecessary in my opinion and I don't like the restriction, yet there are arguments that can be made for it (It makes - oh, right it _made_ - it easy to play crappy cards that you need to complete a combo (name: the Slivers in Flash for example) because when you drew them it would be easy to get them out of your hand). Has anybody thought of Lat-Nam's Legacy as a replacement yet (the 2 mana will hurt however)?
What bugs me most is the restriction of Ponder. Restricting a Sorcery (!) that just digs 4 cards deep was absolutely insane and shows that WotC has no f***ing clue how the format works.
Lets get back to Legacy.
Actualy, it wouldn't be that easy. Because of the whole ban over restriction the ability of Legacy to entertain a much wider number of decks makes it so that, if each of those cards were banned right now, we would already have plenty of pre-made and well tested decks to take the spots of the deck that lost out.
Edit:
@Van: Ponder does not dig 4! Blarg. It can dig 3 or 1! THREE OR ONE!
Team Multi-Grain - We're wholesome.
So Vintage is now power Highlander. Nothing wrong with that. It's been headed that direction forever, they just took a major step there by restricting Brainstorm and Ponder.
The real question is not about what the effects of not having Brainstorm x4 and Ponder x4 is, the real question is how the f*ck do you play Force of Will when you need to find 6 blue fills for those?
That's kinda jacked up w.r.t. Brainstorm. That's been out since Ice Age, and *NOW* it's too powerful? Lol.
FoolofaTook juuuust wrote: "So Vintage is now power Highlander. Nothing wrong with that. It's been headed that direction forever" <-- also,They oughta actually do that
Brainstorm's "Put two back" is the very least of the concerns with the card. The more important factor was what I mentioned about three days ago - In a format which is beginning to resemble highlander anyway, and has hit critical mass as far as powerful tutors goes, Brainstorm's ability to put three new cards in your hand without significant drawback, at instant speed, is WAY over the power threshold, even for that format. In our testing for Vintage, it had gotten to the point where I was willing to counter Brainstorm over almost any other non-gamewinning spell, simply because of how powerful the spell is in the decks that abuse it. I was happily trading a Red Blast for a Brainstorm, or even a Mana Drain. That's disgusting. Wizards gave fair warning - they mentioned during the last round of B&R that while they recognize the need for Force to be unrestricted for the health of the format, the same is simply not true for Brainstorm.
It's also fairly obvious to the objective observer that Ponder is being restricted as a precautionary measure to avoid -3 Brainstorm +3 Ponder to the decks that are able to survive without Scroll and Gush.
It looks like that may have been part of the reasoning behind hitting BS and Ponder...it also takes down FoW with them because now there are less good cards that can either be played or be pitched to Force.
Now, combo decks that ran 4 of each will have to run ALL of the tutors in order to maintain consistency, which will in make FoW less usable than it was before.
Looks like I shouldn't have traded off my Pacts after all.
Vintage does lose entire decks to this. The loss of consistency that BS/Ponder provided hurts alot of popular combo decks, and will probably make them uncompetetive. The same goes for the Gushbond engine, which was integrated into a number of decks.
I was just starting to pick up Next Level Doomsday (due to its shortage of power cards). It's been affected by all the restrictions except for Flash, and it looks like the deck will have to have a strategic redesign, if it can even remain playable at all.
Wasn't Gush un-restricted just a year ago?
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