[Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)

[Shimster]

Why do you still play 3 Wipe Away in your sideboard with the Commands mainboard? What is your boarding plan vs. Thresh?

Haha, silly typo.

// Sideboard
4 Spell Snare
3 Echoing Truth
2 Brain Freeze
2 Wipe Away
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout

vs. balanced Thresh
+ 2 Wipe Away
- 1 Flash of Insight
- 1 Cunning Wish

vs. tempo Thresh
+ 3 Spell Snare
+ 1 Brain Freeze
- 2 Cryptic Command
- 1 Flash of Insight
- 1 Cunning Wish

I didn't test Cryptic Command intensively yet, so my sideboarding advise is made on a 50 % theoretical base.

Fire//Ice doesn't counter Cryptic Command.

My bad! I looked it up via Virtual Judge, as I think it is a common mistake (hopefully):

Q: If I have Counterbalance in play, and an opponent plays a four mana spell, will revealing Fire / Ice counter that spell due to the total converted mana cost being four?

A: No, the converted mana cost of Fire / Ice is two and two. Counterbalance checks to see if the converted mana cost of the revealed card matches the converted mana cost of the spell on the stack. With split cards, you check each converted mana cost separately. In this example neither of the two converted mana costs (which each happen to be two) match, so this spell will not be countered.

[lebarion]

Against Belcher, Ichorid and TES, do you side in the 3 Echoing Truth, or leave one in the side as a wish target?

I realize that Cunning Wish -> Echoing Truth may be too slow against Belcher, but I feel I want to have access to as many ET as I can.

[Pelikanudo]

Haha, silly typo.


vs. balanced Thresh
+ 2 Wipe Away
- 1 Flash of Insight
- 1 Cunning Wish

vs. tempo Thresh
+ 3 Spell Snare
+ 1 Brain Freeze
- 2 Cryptic Command
- 1 Flash of Insight
- 1 Cunning Wish

.

what we intend to do is to improve the Thres match up wheter or not with c.b. I think a 4 cost spell like cryptic command is not optimal i prefer instead those cryptic maybe 2 snares, because is suposed balance is played before you have cryptic or you can play it , when you put up the balance with the cryptic for sure cryptic will be countered... I find the snares and wipeaway OR krosan the only way to handle balance. Respect to dryad, i dont really want to add a second color to solidarity it doesnt worth. Has any one tested the dryad or the meekstone?
Do you really think green splash for 4 dryad, huntin pack,krosan is really good idea? for post boarding, its suposed dryad will be biiig even bigger than tarmo, so could be dryad> meekstone?
I think that playin 2 snares main and leave more slots for side option is the correct way any body agree?

[Pelikanudo]

Heeeeey my friends what about this :
to take out the freezes, some resets some tide and add full pacckage of snares, 4 dryads some wipe away and its supose that having 4 snares 4 fow 4 remands 4 dryads 3 cunnin wish AND 1 berserk in side we simply change the win condition, We even would add the lonely huntin pack from side.
A point for sure we will leave the 3 turnabout to tap lands, creatures to deal letaal damge...And for sure we wont see swords on 2nd game from anybody...

[GreenOne]

I find the snares and wipeaway OR krosan the only way to handle balance.

Repeal could be another bounce payable maindeck against Counterbalance (3cc is unlikely at least maindeck). I know split second is good, but Repeal could act like a cantrip-fog effect against aggro and it's not usually a dead card mid-combo cause at least cantrips.
Sure, SB Wipe Away / Grip are better, but MD I'd play Repeal over Cryptic Command.

The beatdown plan sucks IMO.

[Bahamuth]

Haha, silly typo.

// Sideboard
4 Spell Snare
3 Echoing Truth
2 Brain Freeze
2 Wipe Away
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout

vs. balanced Thresh
+ 2 Wipe Away
- 1 Flash of Insight
- 1 Cunning Wish

vs. tempo Thresh
+ 3 Spell Snare
+ 1 Brain Freeze
- 2 Cryptic Command
- 1 Flash of Insight
- 1 Cunning Wish

I didn't test Cryptic Command intensively yet, so my sideboarding advise is made on a 50 % theoretical base.

Why exactly don't you board in your Spell Snares vs. Balanced Thresh?

Is Spell Snare that good against Tempo Thresh? The only thing it counters in their entire deck that matters is Goyf. Is that enough?

Cryptic Command has the advantage of both cantripping and being usefull in mid-combo. That is why one might consider it. It's strong against many different decks.

[Benie Bederios]

Heeeeey my friends what about this :
to take out the freezes, some resets some tide and add full pacckage of snares, 4 dryads some wipe away and its supose that having 4 snares 4 fow 4 remands 4 dryads 3 cunnin wish AND 1 berserk in side we simply change the win condition, We even would add the lonely huntin pack from side.
A point for sure we will leave the 3 turnabout to tap lands, creatures to deal letaal damge...And for sure we wont see swords on 2nd game from anybody...

How on earth are you going to fit that in your SB? Can you give an example?

EDIT: Next question against wich decks would you board it in?

BB

[Pelikanudo]

the deck base is a modification from the Simon Ritzka deck but only the side and the 2 tropical
Well well well its suppossed that what we do is to change the win cond so the base list is the one that carries 2 snares as main so the side will be:
1 berserk // this card can even destroy any creature.... read it well
1 rebuild
1 stroke
1 huntin pack // i like this card
1 krosan grip // obvious
2 snares
4 dryad quirion
1 wipe away
1 echoing truth
1 freeze
1 turnabout

what we will do is to change the 2 freeze 4 reset 1 remand BY 4 dryad, 2 snares and 1 wipe away. Its uposed this changes will be effective vs 2nd game vs Thres (any type)

A question I have : Id like to know HOW to side and win vs Thres supossing we play the Simon Ritzka deck because this kind of deck with the 2 snares is well made to face the new environment/meta.
If anyone has tested the deck and got good results vs those fuckin Thres please post it and tell us how did you do my friend. Thanks

[Deep6er]

It's NOT effective to play Quirion Dryad. Simple reasoning too. You MUST HAVE IT ON TURN TWO. Otherwise the card sucks. Are you going to mulligan for it? No, because that's an awful strategy. Additionally, the Dryad doesn't even have evasion. Trust me, I tested something similar to this. It just doesn't work. Don't try to play like Threshold, it's not going to end well.

@Bahamuth: Cryptic Command is the worst cantrip to exist. It costs FOUR MANA, to draw ONE CARD. That's a terrible investment. The card is awful during the combo, and mediocre before the combo.

@Shimster: Why would you board out Flash of Insight against Threshold? Besides it being one of the few spells to reliably get through Counterbalance, it's also a reliable way of finding certain cards (like Cunning Wish or sideboarded answers). Granted it's a bit slow, but not always. Additionally, post sideboard, the Threshold player is going to be more concerned with sticking Counterbalance first and foremost before trying to kill you.

[Pelikanudo]

please deeper could you tell me (supossing we play the version with 2 snares main) how did you side vs tres and dreadnoutgh please.
Another point : evasion from berserk and as you always find tide therefore you always find dryad.
I agree with you cryptic is awfull 4 cost.... and board out flash ...nonsense...

[Bahamuth]

It's NOT effective to play Quirion Dryad. Simple reasoning too. You MUST HAVE IT ON TURN TWO. Otherwise the card sucks. Are you going to mulligan for it? No, because that's an awful strategy. Additionally, the Dryad doesn't even have evasion. Trust me, I tested something similar to this. It just doesn't work. Don't try to play like Threshold, it's not going to end well.

@Bahamuth: Cryptic Command is the worst cantrip to exist. It costs FOUR MANA, to draw ONE CARD. That's a terrible investment. The card is awful during the combo, and mediocre before the combo.

@Shimster: Why would you board out Flash of Insight against Threshold? Besides it being one of the few spells to reliably get through Counterbalance, it's also a reliable way of finding certain cards (like Cunning Wish or sideboarded answers). Granted it's a bit slow, but not always. Additionally, post sideboard, the Threshold player is going to be more concerned with sticking Counterbalance first and foremost before trying to kill you.

I completely agree on Dryad. The strategy sucks. There's no way this is going to improve your match against Thresh.

I have my doubts on Cryptic Command as well. Van Phanel is very enthusiastic about it. I can see why it's a reasonable choice tough. The card isn't awful in combo, definately not. If you have lethal damage on the board, you're going to have to tap those creatures anyway. Doing that with Command gives you the opportunity to draw a card for doing that. It doesn't cost anything more than Trunabout or Wish --> Stroke.
Before combo it indeed doesn't really shine. It does provide a maindeckable answer to CB which also has a cantrip built in. What makes it interesting tough, is that it can function on both pre and mid combo, which is exactly what this deck wants (like Remand).

Deep6er: What list would you suggest (if you have one)?

[Deep6er]

I'm trying out a couple. Once I find one I like, then I'll post it. Otherwise, it wouldn't really help discussion. Give me a bit of time. Since I can't do much testing right now, I'm still working out the kinks.

[Pelikanudo]

2 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash of Insight
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
4 Opt
3 Remand
4 Reset
2 Spell Snare
3 Turnabout
land [18]

3 Flooded Strand
12 Island
3 Polluted Delta
60 cards
Sideboard:

1 Brain Freeze
3 Echoing Truth
3 Hydroblast
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
2 Spell Snare
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
2 Wipe Away
15 cards
Well this list from Simon Ritzka comes from the new environment to fitgh those tres with c.balance.
What I really would like to know is how to side in this list on 2nd turn when youre facin Tres which cards will you take out? which one will you put in?
the 2 snares as main , thats ritgh that dont help to combo off but its a option meta

[Bahamuth]

2 Brain Freeze
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Flash of Insight
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
3 Meditate
4 Opt
3 Remand
4 Reset
2 Spell Snare
3 Turnabout
land [18]

3 Flooded Strand
12 Island
3 Polluted Delta
60 cards
Sideboard:

1 Brain Freeze
3 Echoing Truth
3 Hydroblast
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
2 Spell Snare
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
2 Wipe Away
15 cards
Well this list from Simon Ritzka comes from the new environment to fitgh those tres with c.balance.
What I really would like to know is how to side in this list on 2nd turn when youre facin Tres which cards will you take out? which one will you put in?
the 2 snares as main , thats ritgh that dont help to combo off but its a option meta

I have been playing this list for a while too, with the exception of the Hydroblas, which were another Wipe Away, Brain Freeze and a random slot.

Generally, you board in 2 Spell Snare and 1-2 Wipe Away.
What goes out is up to you, but I'd board out at least 1 Remand and 1 Wish. The rest is usually stuff like Opt, but those are up to you.

[Pelikanudo]

I have been playing this list for a while too, with the exception of the Hydroblas, which were another Wipe Away, Brain Freeze and a random slot.

Generally, you board in 2 Spell Snare and 1-2 Wipe Away.
What goes out is up to you, but I'd board out at least 1 Remand and 1 Wish. The rest is usually stuff like Opt, but those are up to you.

waht you re playing is the deck from Nils Müller, ritfgh. I agree as well in not playing those hyfdroblast because there is almost no gobbos, and this side is as well stronger vs those fuckin dreadnouts . Its suposed youll side in 2 wipes, 3 truths and 2 sanrtes ritgh , but what will you take out?

[Van Phanel]

Cryptic Command is the worst cantrip to exist. It costs FOUR MANA, to draw ONE CARD. That's a terrible investment. The card is awful during the combo, and mediocre before the combo.

Have you tried not seeing it as a cantrip but rather as a toolbox in one card that has "draw a card" attached to it? Also, have you actually tried it?

I think you'll agree that Counterbalance has to be adressed some way (I'm currently 19-3-2 at my last few tournaments with two IDs and three losses against Threshold) and Command was my choice as it has its uses in every other (noncombo) matchup as well. Do you have a better idea? I'd sure appreciate hearing it (and no need to get into a hurry, take your time).



@Pelikanudo: Please try to use proper English. Your posts are close to unreadable.

FYI, Shimster is Nils Müller and I am Simon Ritzka. Our lists share the mainboard, only Shimster plays Peek instead of two Opt which isn't that big of a difference. So saying that Bahamuth plays one list of them or another doesn't really make much sense (especially as we all put some thoughts into that list).

For the boardingplan with 2 Spell Snare main:

UGw Balanced Thresh:
+ 2 Spell Snare
+ 1 Wipe Away
- 1 Opt
- 1 Impulse
- 1 ? (not sure about this yet. Not Wish however as you want to have access to Wipe Away)


I'm not sure about Dreadstill as I haven't yet had the chance to play against it. You'd want to board in all your Wipe Away's however (as they can counter Wish with CB thanks to Trinket Mage). Boarding Truth depends on how controlish you want to play and on the number of Wipe Away you have.


Generally leave one Wipe Away side at all times if your opponent (who plays CB) doesn't play cards with converted mana cost 3.

[Tacosnape]

Are we sure Threshold has to be addressed?

I mean, granted, it's kind of ballsy to take the Glass Cannon approach when the deck that completely destroys you is top tier and arguably the most played deck in the entire format. But short of dedicating ridiculous numbers of outs to beating Threshold, I can't consistently achieve a positive matchup against players who know how to play against Solidarity. Tarmogoyf's clock speed and Counterbalance's annoyingness cause problems. And if I want to dedicate that much effort to beating Threshold while compromising other matchups, why am I not playing a different deck entirely?

So what if you take a Solidarity build that absolutely throws away Threshold and is built with shoreups for faster combo decks and control matchups?

[Van Phanel]

An interesting idea. You really made me think about the other matchups and how good or bad they actually are.

The problem with that approach is that in order to make it work, you'd really have to have an insanely good matchup against the rest of the field, which isn't the case. In Legacy generally, there rarely is a matchup that is better (or worse) than 60-40. If you knew a way to improve those other matchups by a lot, this might be worth a try, but I can't think of one. Can you?

[Bahamuth]

An interesting idea. You really made me think about the other matchups and how good or bad they actually are.

The problem with that approach is that in order to make it work, you'd really have to have an insanely good matchup against the rest of the field, which isn't the case. In Legacy generally, there rarely is a matchup that is better (or worse) than 60-40. If you knew a way to improve those other matchups by a lot, this might be worth a try, but I can't think of one. Can you?

Well, first of all we could speed up the deck by adding Peer Trough Depths (I'm not saying we remove Impulse!). We could dedicate some SB slots to the combo matchup (Stifle? Disrupting Shoal?). Perhaps we could add Twincast to improve any other controllish matchups. 2 Brain Freeze should be in the board too.

I don't like giving away our Thresh matchup completely. I think this deck can have a reasonable chance against it. I remember lot's of time's winning against it.

[Pelikanudo]

Well, first of all we could speed up the deck by adding Peer Trough Depths (I'm not saying we remove Impulse!). We could dedicate some SB slots to the combo matchup (Stifle? Disrupting Shoal?). Perhaps we could add Twincast to improve any other controllish matchups. 2 Brain Freeze should be in the board too.

I don't like giving away our Thresh matchup completely. I think this deck can have a reasonable chance against it. I remember lot's of time's winning against it.

Please could you tell me How the hell did you win those tres match ups and how did you side?
I think if youre facin a tres with full pacckage of stifles its not very logic to play your full package of freeze, I mean we´d better resolve the draw spells instead of go directly to combo off.
Meekstone or Dryad+berserk are ways that are absolutly discarded ritgh?