[Deck] The EPIC Elf Survival

[georgjorge]

Aggro Loam having a Perish in the board (WTF ? More than half of its own creatures are green...) was also unlucky. But generally, I think the deck can sometimes run out of steam if it doesn't get Survival or good Messengers...which is why I'm currently testing three Talara's Battalion to support Vanquishers with the beatdown. I'll let you know how it goes.

[Aggro_zombies]

Aggro Loam having a Perish in the board (WTF ? More than half of its own creatures are green...) was also unlucky. But generally, I think the deck can sometimes run out of steam if it doesn't get Survival or good Messengers...which is why I'm currently testing three Talara's Battalion to support Vanquishers with the beatdown. I'll let you know how it goes.

What about Banefire, from Conflux? You've got access to red, and given the amount of mana you run, X should always be greater than five. Hitting your opponent with an uncounterable Fireball if you stall seems like a good play.

The downside, obviously, is that it's not an Elf. Sideboard, maybe?

[adrieng]

I really think we should play 4 natural order and 1 progenitus(10/10 protection against all) in sb.
It helps the aggro-loam matchup a lot and should win the game on his own which has been a problem for me. It is also good against red threshold which packs clasme in sb, and which is quite hard.
I have given up for the combo matchup, even with 8 cards in sb you still have a bad matchup. With eight cards in sb you can bet to win one game but not 2 out of three. ADN is much harder than ichorid or belcher to disrupt.
I have been testing the deck with timberwatch elf and without the white splash and like it a lot. The deck can still kill turn 3 and a lot of turn 4 kill. I don't think the combo is needed. I don't play neither wirewood symbiote cause I want to play only elfes in the deck and I hate revealing them with messenger. I am for the moment trying 2 tribal forcemage and 2 boreal druid. I have found that the deck ALWAYS wants a turn one elf and I don't want to mulligan cause I haven't got it.

[georgjorge]

I'm playing a Boreal as well, but I think using just two slots for Symbiote and Ranger, who can do useful stuff on their own, is worth the ability to combo out and kill the opponent in one swoop (and I haven't done it without any of those two so far).

Regarding Timberwatch: Is it better than a Lord, considering it adds the same total amount of power to your board but can't be used the turn it comes into play ? Or do you play eight Lords plus the Timberwatches ? It's true that the deck can have problems punching through big creatures though...

[adrieng]

He is sometimes better than lord. I am playing 3 ranger which have are really good with timberwatch and imperious perfect(2 token a turn). Just think you have four-five elf with a quirion ranger and a timberwatch you are sure to make 8-10 damage only with timberwatch (untap effect of quirion ranger). I play 8 lords + 4 timberwatch yes. Timberwatch is my main kill. I can't see playing the deck without it.

[Mystic]

Hey Di,

I have been playing survival for over a year now and after reading all the survival threads on here you seem like the expert on the deck. I recently played your 4 color list with swords and Bob and loved it, I really like the fact that you could win with the deck without even drawing survival. So thinking that I would have a similar feeling about your new list I put it together, and so far I love this list as well. I just have a few questions about side boarding.

For Reference here is my current list and board:

4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Anger
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Champion
4 Imperious Perfect
3 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Wood Elves
2 Quirion Ranger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Mirror Entity

20 Land
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
5 Forest
3 Wasteland

On the main board I do not think I would change a card, everything has been useful one time or another. Vanquisher seems like the weakest slot, In testing the only thing I want is a graveyard recursion ability. I plan on testing -1 Vanquisher +1 Genesis.

Current side board
3 Krosan Grip
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Choke
3 Absolute Law
1 Caller of the claw

If you could give me an idea on side boarding in the key matchups that would be great.

Thanks Mystic

[GGoober]

GUYS!

For those who are iffy with Absolute Law for protecting against Pyroclasm, Bolts, Devastating Dreams, we got a new goodie from MTGS spoiler for CONFLUX

Mark of Asylum 1W
Enchantment
Prevent all noncombat damage that would be dealt to creatures you control.


This is good stuff. We're out of burn's reach finally and the Aggro Loam matchup should be easy. Also, no more getting pissed with Symbiote being bolted :D

[Waikiki]

So from what does it protect other then the things absolute law allready protects us from?

[GGoober]

Lol good point. I guess absolute law is better since you can block crushers, gobs.

I guess you can prevent damage from Pestilence/Crypt Rats? XD

[Xenos]

Yes Timberwatch Elf is better than Mirror. A simple R/G version is sturdier and doesn't need wood elves.

Plus Timberwatch is always my main threat. Whenever it hits the board my opponent tries everything to get rid of it. It's an absolute beast. Mirror is more clunky and mana expensive to function. Timberwatch is much more smoother and consistant. It does more than a Lord usually. What I found is that this deck doesn't rely on "mass attacks" Rather, It needs to focus all the power on specific targets for maximum success. When your elves get pumped by Lords alot of times you don't even use that bonus to attack becuase the elves are still too small and simply not worth being lost, or it is already being tapped for other abilities. So alot of the power generated by the lords gets wasted. Timberwatch on the other hand, can focus all the power on an unblocked creature or spread to power to where it is relevant.


On the other hand, Timberwatch can get weak on it's own when your deck is out of gas. But then again so do the Lords and Mirrors. I still prefere it over mirror though.

p.s if you're running timberwatch 4 Quirion Ranger is a must. simply too good. and helps the fragile manabase too.

[GGoober]

I disagree Xenos.

For the same Mana cost, Mirror Entity does so much more than Timberwatch:
It acts as lord 9-10 and pumps everything. Things get a little insane if you have a priest. Timberwatch would be amazing if it gave trample, but it doesn't. For the same manacost, Timberwatch only pumps one creature, and requires Symbiote/Ranger to pull of higher pumps. It's probably only useful with Messenger (trample). No one will leave a pumped elf unblocked if it didn't have trample with Timberwatch in play.

But more crucially, Mirror Entity has insane synergy with Priest and Symbiote. I've won without Survival just with Symbiote, Priest out and swinging for a good 6/6 with 4 elves. With Survival, you win. Without Priest/Symbiote, it still acts as a solid beater, and is much better in topdeck mode with an empty board than Timberwatch is. Timberwatch is very situational to the number of elves in play. Whereas Mirror gets more bonus if you have more creatures and more acceleration, it's not needed. It can sometimes swing as a 6/6 all by itself.

GR is a more stable shell, but I rather play GRW since post sideboard, we have access to cards like Gaddock Teeg, Orim's Chant and many more anti-clasm cards (e.g. Absolute law)

[Xenos]

I disagree Xenos.

For the same Mana cost, Mirror Entity does so much more than Timberwatch:
It acts as lord 9-10 and pumps everything. Things get a little insane if you have a priest. Timberwatch would be amazing if it gave trample, but it doesn't. For the same manacost, Timberwatch only pumps one creature, and requires Symbiote/Ranger to pull of higher pumps. It's probably only useful with Messenger (trample). No one will leave a pumped elf unblocked if it didn't have trample with Timberwatch in play.

But more crucially, Mirror Entity has insane synergy with Priest and Symbiote. I've won without Survival just with Symbiote, Priest out and swinging for a good 6/6 with 4 elves. With Survival, you win. Without Priest/Symbiote, it still acts as a solid beater, and is much better in topdeck mode with an empty board than Timberwatch is. Timberwatch is very situational to the number of elves in play. Whereas Mirror gets more bonus if you have more creatures and more acceleration, it's not needed. It can sometimes swing as a 6/6 all by itself.

GR is a more stable shell, but I rather play GRW since post sideboard, we have access to cards like Gaddock Teeg, Orim's Chant and many more anti-clasm cards (e.g. Absolute law)

It comes down to this:

2 Mirror Entity + 1 Wood Elves + Savannah


or

4 Timberwatch Elf

Playing Mirror comes with a luggage of weak cards.

Playing Timberwatch comes with potential of not doing much by itself.



I've tested both, both have pros and cons. You've already explained Mirror Entity for the most part; I'm just gonna talk about Timberwatch:


Timberwatch looks alot worse on paper than it does in practice. Lords don't do much on their own either, and Timberwatch is basically a Lord. I still believe the deck does better by focusing its power on specific targets rather than spreading it around to every creature. Heck, I might sound crazy, but I think Jagged-Scar Archers would even be better than Elvish Champion if not for its Forestwalk that is so essential.


Of course, you don't pump before blockers are declared, that's would be a mistake. That's the key thing that makes Timberwatch strong, it's difficult to block your elves with the versatility of pumping any one of them according to how they're blocked.

Random example.

lets say you have 3 elves and a lord. vs a 4/4 defender if you attack you will probably lose an elf and do some damage. but with timberwatch, he would be foolish to block. And he ends up eating all the damage instead while you lose nothing at all compared to using a normal Lord. This is typically what happens when I have a timberwatch.

If he has mulitple defenders such as a goblin deck, then you might reach a stalemate with a normal Lord, happens often. But with timberwatch, you can always attack with at least 1 creature no matter what because if he chooses to block ,he is guarenteed to lose more than you would. so they usually dont block, and the timberewatch gets all the damage through whereas a normal lord's pump couldn't without losing more material.

Just a random example to illustrate how it functions. this is why I believe spreading the pump around with normal lords is weaker than focusing the power on speciific targets, ala Timberwatch. It doesn't need messenger. On it's own it's weak, thats the bad point about it, though I still believe it is better than Elvish Champion as a Lord, which also does close to nothing on its own. if there's no forestwalk, that is.


My main problem with Mirror is the white splash, there must be equally good sideboard options provided in G/R, it just needs to be discovered. I get color screwed often enough that I prefere not using Mirror Entity at all.

[Lcpdenijs]

I like the discussion on this deck.
Seems like we got 2 versions of this deck.
The one with Mirror Entity (white splash) and the one with the Timberwatch Elves.
Could you post a decklist of the one with the Timberwatch Elves?

[Atwa]

I would never and I really mean never cut white in this deck. You can debate about the use of Mirror Entity or Timberwatch Elf, but still even if I was to play without white maindeck, I'd still consider Savannah's for the sideboard options.

In G/R, you have absolutely no sideboard options against Combo (to supplement Thorn). The only thing decent is Pyrostatic Pillar and that kills us even faster than it kills combo.

Even if you want to let go off the lost cause which combo is (which I have seen several people do), there is no replacement for the gamesaver called Absolute Law. That card would have won me the game last weekend against Aggro Loam if only the guy didn't pack Perish in his side along with Burning Tutor (I know, wtf. But the common logic of him having half his win conditions in green didn't stop him from playing it).

Also against Burn, Goblins and Goyf Slight this is a card you really want to play.

[adrieng]

here is the list I am testing :

4 fyndhron
4 llanowar
2 boreal druid
4 priest
3 quirion ranger
8 lords
4 timberwatch elf
4 messenger
3 tribal forcemage (testing)
1 zealot
1 squee
1 anger
4 survival

11 forest
4 wooded
2 taiga


Sideboard :


4 natural order (aggro loam, all decks with red but gob)
1 progenitus
10 others cards

You don't need white to have an answer to combo, you have trinisphere (you can play it turn 2 with 10 elves), null rod and chalice of the void, thorn of amethyst which are very good.

[Atwa]

You don't need white to have an answer to combo, you have trinisphere (you can play it turn 2 with 10 elves), null rod and chalice of the void, thorn of amethyst which are very good.

I would like to ask what your main strategy against Aggro Loam, Goyf Slight and Burn are.

[adrieng]

Aggro loam is really hard game one, try to race them it happens, and don't forget to return a land with quirion ranger after DD. After side natural order => progenitus =gg.
You can race burn usually the winner is the one who starts. The deck can kill turn 3 and lots of turn four kills. If you really fear them play one wellwisher in sb gaining 4+ life is usually enough. Against goyf sligh they usually have to burn your creatures, and you are faster or as fast as them, you don't fear anymore PoP(no white splash). The problematic card is grim lavamancer which can be a pain but if you have a timberwatch elf active you don't fear anymore their removals.

[Atwa]

Any competent Burn or Goyf Slight player (or one who knows the matchup) knows he has to burn away the early mana-elves. In which case you won't be faster than them, you will actually lose so much speed you won't be able to restabilize fast enough to defend the fast beats which usually folow.

Wellwishers won't help against that, they make up actually very nice additional targets after they've killed your mana elves, if they are even worth the effort with you having an empty board.

I haven't tested Natural Order yet, but I can't imagine it improves the matchups enough to drop cards like Absolute Law and Gaddock Teeg (against Fireblast). And even if it improves it enough so the matchup will be 50-50, you will still have lost game 1, making the rest of the match a total gamble.

[Di]

Wow, I have a lot of stuff to respond to.

@ Arguments for Timberwatch Elf.

I've gotten in a couple heated discussions with this over the past few days. It's making me want to rip my hair out. The arguments for Timberwatch Elf are really weak compared to the alleged disadvantages of running Mirror Entity.

For starters, compare them both on their own. Mirror Entity is the strongest card in the deck by itself, although that could be debated with Imperious Perfect. But still, Entity will always push you ahead in an aggro matchup. It is an enormous threat on its own because it turns all available mana you have, which will always be a lot, into an issue for the opponent. It makes all your guys huge, not a single one. Take for instance you have 3 lands in play, Mirror Entity, and 3 Llanowar Elves (or Fyndhorns, whatever). You can attack with all creatures and pump them to 3/3 for 12 damage, or make them 4/4 and attack for 12, or maybe 5/5 and attack for 10. If that was Timberwatch Elf, you could either attack with 3 1/1 creatures and pump a single one to make it a 5/5, or pass the turn because your team is entirely weak. If you have Priest of Titania in play, then the point obviously goes to Mirror Entity.

The only possible occasions where Timberwatch Elf is superior is if you have have very little mana to use and a plethora of creatures in play, which is incredibly unlikely given that over half the deck is mana production, and that you also have a Quirion Ranger in play. Otherwise, there isn't anything beneficial about it. Timberwatch makes a single creature a threat, or Mirror Entity makes all your creatures threats. The fact that is requires white mana isn't a reasonable consequence at all; you run fetchlands and will almost always have access to white mana. Besides, white should be in the deck regardless for sideboarding purposes. If you want to completely pack it to combo that's fine, but there is no better alternative than Absolute Law outside white except maybe Bubble Matrix, but that's another argument. Fact is, Mirror Entity turns a weak team into a strong team, and Timberwatch will keep a team weak unless you have a Quirion Ranger or something to complement it. It is weak when you're in topdeck mode or are facing a post-Wog/Clasm situation, and the fact that it can't be used immediately is a serious problem. Entity activates the turn it comes into play. How many situations have you guys been in that had something along the lines of turn 1 Elf, turn 2 Priest + Ranger, turn 3 Entity, add lots of mana, swing for like 10? It is more consistent that Timberwatch Elf, offers more speed, and allows you to push through much easier in other aggro matchups.

Plus, trying to defend Timberwatch in the place of a lord is awful. Lords are not there solely for pumping, they have other uses. Forestwalk is powerful in 75% of the matchups you play. I win a ton of matchups to that alone. And Imperious Perfect's token generating ability is absolutely critical in aggro and control matchups. They also offer protection against Engineered Plague and potential protection against Pyroclasm and such if you're able to get multiples in play. Timberwatch Elf offers nothing against hate nor does it have any value beyond that of any of the other creatures in question.

Playing Mirror comes with a luggage of weak cards.

What?

It comes with....Savannah, a land that is already going to be in the deck for sideboard purposes, and Wirewood Symbiote. Every single Elves list has run Wirewood Symbiote whether it ran Mirror Entity or not. Wirewood Symbiote is weak, true, but it offers amazing utility beyond Mirror Entity. It is mana acceleration, protection from removal, and allows Messenger recursion. It would be in the deck if I wasn't running Mirror Entity either way.

I haven't tested Natural Order yet, but I can't imagine it improves the matchups enough to drop cards like Absolute Law and Gaddock Teeg (against Fireblast). And even if it improves it enough so the matchup will be 50-50, you will still have lost game 1.

Don't dismiss Natural Order -> Progenitus just yet. I've been testing it out in here and have had amazing results. Not as a sideboard option, but as a maindeck card. It gives the deck even more flexibility, and outside Wrath of God or a combo deck killing you, there aren't like any outs for other decks to deal with it. It is this format's version of Tinker -> Colossus, and it fits perfectly into this shell. It's only the matter of figuring out what to cut for it. It's ironic I just got into that tirade above, because in all likelyhood the Entity aspect of the deck would be cut to make room for the 5 slots necessary. I don't know, it's kind of difficult, so a lot of testing will tell. But realize that it is a huge thing for green decks to get this, so it's seriously worth looking at.

[Xenos]

While I don't necessarily dispute Mirror's technical superiority when comparing it card-to-card with Timberwatch, I probably should have made it more clear it is my desire to cut white completely from the deck that leads me to my decisions. It DOES make the deck a heck lot more inconsistant, sure, you can run Wood Elves, but that's another weak card. it is not as though Mirror is just strickly better than Timberwatch. I always get wastelanded and stifled to 'bolivion. The games I lose are often the games where I'm mana screwed, by far. not by whether or not I have timberwatch/mirror. And that's the weakness of this deck: the fragile mana-base. Quirion Ranger has probably won me more games than I realise. I am in favor of solidifying the manabase above all else, and I feel adding a 3rd color just weakens that already frail manabase. The games I win with Mirror comes with games I lose to color/mana screw. Then again, games I win with strong manabase comes with games I lose with solo-timberwatch. Though I am not convinced either build is significantly better than the other, I still prefere R/G for the stable manabase. Sideboard can start with something like this:

4 Krosan Grip
4 Thorn of Amethyest
? Caller of the Claw?

Red is another huge weakness of this deck, and Absolute Law is just the perfect answer, I know. That is the only justification for running white. The combo hate aspect from white is unnecessary, it doesn't really give you that much of an edge when I've tried. I'd rather just give up odds and race them and save sideboard for something else. There must be a good sideboard options for R/G, I'm not convinced that white is the only option. I'm just too lazy to do the research but I'm sure someone else can.




Progenitus is an interesting card. It would in fact be too soon to overlook it. This just might be the answer for all that Red hate we've been looking for. Should be tested anyways.