Null rod is a one piece handle everything card. It handles all that needles are usually used for and then some. Its arguably better than needles in terms of what it can do. The problem with it is its easily counterable compared to needles which are somewhat easier to play around counters. Its also a turn slower, this can in turn make your goldfish slower as well. It all comes down to the metagame. If your meta has diverse hate cards (crypt, relic, EE, jitte, etc) and they are alot of affinity, vials, moxen, etc. null rod is relatively better. When relic and crypt are the only common hate cards needles are the better choice imo. Its just a matter of playing needle correctly, never name needle blindly, assuming what your opponent has is one of the more reckless plays with needle.
I haven't tested firestorm yet. I don't think its that good because it forces to discard, this is something that non-led dredge is designed not to do. You can easily outrace aggro decks anyway. The only match-up where i see it being fairly good are against merfolks and decks that run hate bears like teeg, jailer, meddling mage, etc.
Reveillark isn't suboptimal per se. It's good in certain match-ups just as sage is good in certain match-ups. Both are optimal in very different ways mainly because both require very different ways to play the deck. Reveiilark imo is better against blue where usually don't win thourgh the zombie hoard but rather through slow and consistent beats. Sage is better against decks you have to race because it wins faster in a fragile yet more explosive manner. You should play what you think works better where you play. Sage is just the preferred among the two because more often than not you'd have to race your opponent. I prefer sage because i really prefer winning through a race. The man plan for me is just the plan B for the deck. The reveillark for me is a slower clock although more steady.
@jimirynk: how big does the GGTs usually get with you most of the time? The deck doesn't dredge as much without the sage. The biggest ive had them in testing are 11/11 along with 3 zombie tokens and FKZ. I was still able to win later but the win was delayed by 2 turns due to my opponent being able to block the GGT.
Why so serious?
Games were your opponent go first turn curse catcher or mogg fanatic can be problematic for this deck. The odds of you getting more then 1 or 2 tokens verse these decks are very low. Lark gives you a lethal swing out of no where even when all of your bridges are gone.Originally Posted by hwtcharger07
GGTs on average is a 11/11.lol
I think sage and lark have equal strengths and weakness's.
Lark is better in a meta that removes bridges game one.
sage is only in my md right now over lark because g1 vs merfolk if a relic comes down turn 1 or two you sometimes have to exploded asap.
I'm going to start testing kelpi in this shell.
I think river kelpi is good in list with 4 therapy's and 3 DRs.
You don't have to go all out with it through hate.
Sage is good when you need to get things out of your hand when going off which is better in the led list do to the lack of discard outlets, but with all are discard outlets river kelpi is going into my deck for testing right now.lol
I used to play kelpi over sage in my led list because of all the tribal, kelpi gets you more tokens when low on brides.
EDIT:I average 4 dredges off a kelpi so right now it will become my DR target.
Last edited by jimirynk; 05-17-2009 at 04:41 AM.
GGT doesn't have any evasion... any smart player is just going to leave a body behind to chump. I still don't get why lark is better than Empyrial Archangel.
3 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Darkblast
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
1 Firestorm
2 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
Board:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Devastating Dreams
1 Platinum Angel
This took 2nd at a small tourney in Germany... Interesting take... Thoughts?
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
A smart players going to predict me swing for lethal due to lark after all my bfbs are rfged?
You my friend sound like an idiot.
Lol I love the paradises to play DD easier you win sirr.
I've never had a hard time with the aggro match up but I think DD is greater than firestorm vs all but folk.
Even tho he runs one main??
I run the same amount of dredgers but -1 darkblast +1 thug, I like the number maybe I'll try the dark blast it keeps my dredgers the same but ups my discard outlet for a dredger.
Platinum angel is cool but no evasion.
But I guess certain decks can't answer it and they side out kgrips hmmmm.
He cuts a coliseum and a breakthrough from what I play, I don't like that but I think the -1 coliseum comes from the need to make RR for DD.
Breakthrough has become my least favorite card in this deck, but if i brought it down to two I would want something besides a firestorm taking its place.
Last edited by jimirynk; 05-17-2009 at 04:35 AM.
i am neither, and yes i will chump your lethal ggt, or i will stifle it, or i will bounce it, or i will [insert targeted removal here] it...A smart players going to predict me swing for lethal due to lark after all my bfbs are rfged?
You my friend sound like an idiot.
well one I said lark helps you with no bfb, have fun chump blocking trolls, I'll win the turn after after I killed 2 of your goyfs bounce one they're still a fatty on the board.
Plus GGT regenerates.. but its w.e. if you don't like lark don't play it.
If you don't bring useful information to the thread trying to progress this deck don't post.
Defensive much? I just mentioned three ways to stop ggt which archangel gets around..
@ Keys.
I feel that Archangel is a random fatty to put into dredge were lark has synergy that can help you "combo" your way to win in a tight situation.
I kind of wanted to fit an archangel in my md for a while but it was never a greater dr target then sage or lark.
How I decide my DR target is turn a card around and when going to DR it in ever match up write down what it is.
Then what ever has the most for game 1s put it in the main.
Repeat for games 2 and 3 and if the card changes I put the new card in my board.
Sry I got defensive I've been play testing for too long this weekend I'm kinda on the fritz.
I do like archangel,but I like random fatties in the board for when they're needed.
@jimirynk: liked i said before i play darkblasts in the thug spot to take care of those weenies, its a good card against those, if you're open to the idea give it a try.
How was kelpie been for you? I tested them a while back, its great when its great but there are times that it just sits around because of a bad dredge without therapies or a return.^^ Its just my luck but it does happen. Sage for me is better because it wins alone unlike kelpie. In testing you can see that sage wins more games, hopefully ^^
@Joe_C: How are the random firestorm and darkblast? Have they been effective despite being only 1 ofs?
I assume angel is for combo?
How about devastating dreams? killing your lands seems awful.
Don't you find 3 paradises slows you down alot, the timewalk is terrible. I assume you play against alot of blue where the timewalk isn't much of a factor, am i correct?
@kevs: archangel is a good card. angel and inkwell are the two best beaters with regards to being a DR target imo. Winning through a random fattie ftw isn't the most efficient strategy with the deck. It is relatively slow compared to a hoard of zombies or ichorids. The thing with lark over angel is when they answer lark it has a built in plan B which the opponent has to answer too. Angel is built to race but with two 4/5 goyfs damage redirected to it, killing it, the race doesn't seem too fair now is it. Angel is great versus burn. In other match-ups theres a chance to randomly die. I think if you want a fattie ftw inkwell is better. more often than not, you'd use fatties versus blue where other decks you can just combo-off, its a 3 turn clock against blue ^^ Sorry about straying off-topic, what i wanted to say is angel and lark are both good in their own respects and both are bad when worse comes to worse.
Question related to angel: when direct damage is dealt to angel will it redirect to you? ive read somewhere that redirection works both ways i think. Is this correct?
Why so serious?
Bum_man: I am not playing this list, as you will see at the bottom of my post there, it was played by someone in germany and it took 2nd at a small tourney. I just wanted to toss it here in the forum since it had some odd card choices.
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
OH! i thought this looked familiar. :)) sorry my bad. I just speed-read all the posts @_@ The list looks interesting though, very techy. Whats your take on it? especially having darkblast as the dredgers in addition to thugs, if i remember correctly that was when you ran 14-15ish dredgers. You changed it a few posts later. It wasn't that consistent, no? @@
Why so serious?
Im still trying to play around with the numbers on a few cards. Im currently running 12 dregders (4 of all the dredge creatures), I would like to bump it back up to 14, but I need to find room for it. I may drop down to 2 breakthrough again to go for a more "grind it out" approach to the deck. Taking wins off of ichorid beats and not focusing on trying to turn 2-3 combo
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
The DD seems ok with the ammount of paradises he runs, but i would go with firestorms and 2 t.citadels.
~Maarten
In the german list it would seem the singleton darkblast would be way better suited as thug #4. Since he is only running 2 breakthrough, the deck is going to be slower and more reliant on ichorid recursion to win......
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
@ Joe C.
It looks like that on paper but he is running the same amount of black creatures as us do to the 4th icorid.
Also blast can still help with speed, back when I ran dark blast I used to use it to nuke my own tribes eot when I had 3-4 bridges.
I also like it because Its one card that tilts the mirror towards you.
I think I'm goiing to test it out due to the fact that I run 3 ichorids.
On another note he has 2 grudges in his board and I was thinking if this was a really smart approach.
I mean you win game one your oppents on the play they go first turn relic/crypt. You go first turn study discard grudge land pass they die a little on the inside.
Just I'm going to try to find room.
I also have a card in my board that I'm not sharing for the 30th.=P
Take that joe C.
Updated list:
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Ichorid(Might test 4 with all stp running around in gwu thresh)
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Cephalid Sage(I'm testing with a backwards card..)
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Darkblast(testing)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough(been testing 3, always end up siding out games 2/3)
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return(might cut one if not running lark)
Board:
4 Pithing Needle/null rod (meta game choice)
4 Wispmare
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of revelation
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 SECRET TECH
I wouldn't say the configuration is slower but the combo isn't as consistent as it can be compared to the more solid man plan. the -1 coliseum, -1 return, -1 sage emphasizes on this although the gas of the 4th coliseum is needed especially without the 3rd breakthrough. The random darkblast is.. well... random i'd probably up that to 2 for a higher chance of getting it in the opening grip where its needed.
Grudge isn't actually that bad. I run 1 in the board just for ensnaring bridges and a random dreadnought kill. It saved me once by killing a relic on my 2nd turn (hardcast ^^). I'd rather play a grudge md over the firestorm especially with all the merfolk running around. ugh.
Ive been testing out sage along with a lark proxy and they seem to be working out well, they show-up when needed.. so far.. i'll do more testing. I feel wee bit of a tendency to over-play with both of them in harness. @jimirynk have you tried this configuration before?
Why so serious?
Hi, im going to a 40-man tournament next week and this is the deck im taking with me. It will be the first tournament with this deck so im not expecting too much of it. I'll post a small report how it went, but im not making any notes so dont think it will be 2 pages long
This is the list i will be running:
1#Cephalid Sage
3#Dread Return
4#Careful Study
2#Tarnished Citadel
1#Flame-Kin Zealot
1#Darkblast
4#City of Brass
4#Cephalid Coliseum
4#Bridge from Below
3#Tireless Tribe
4#Putrid Imp
4#Cabal Therapy
4#Golgari Grave-Troll
4#Stinkweed Imp
3#Golgari Thug
4#Gemstone Mine
4#Narcomoeba
3#Breakthrough
3#Ichorid
// sideboard
4#Wispmare
3#Chain of Vapor
1#Empyrial Archangel
2#Ancient Grudge
1#Ray of Revelation
4#Pithing Needle
~Maarten
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