Competitive Legacy w/o Tarmogoyf or FoW

[Fistandantilus]

Force of Will sells for about $30 each.

Tarmogoyf sells for about $35 each.

Is there any way to play competitive Legacy without having 4 copies of at least one of these cards?

If so, may I see a competitive Legacy deck that has no copies of either card in it?

More specifically, I'm interested in seeing deck lists that would NOT be improved by having either of these cards in it.

Plus, such a deck that also has a positive matchup against Countertop Goyf and Canadian Thresh (or either of these) would be interesting to see.

[rockout]

TES, Elf survival, Goblins, Ichorid...

[keys]

Well those are probably the two best cards in the format, but there are still a handful of competitive decks that play neither: TES, Ichorid, Goblins, Dragon Stompy, Mono Red Burn/Sligh, Survival Elves, Geddon Stax... probably more I'm forgetting. The first four have put up multiple T8 finishes and a few wins at major tournaments.

[johanessen]

Try kithkins
Seriously, is that hard to take a fast look at the dtb threads and see the lists?

[bowvamp]

Pox FTW! Imho if you want a good matchup against aggro control, this deck will blow your mind!

EDIT: And also if the point of this thread is to prove that nothing's competitive w/o Tarmogoyf or FOW, you suck. But if it's cause you want to build a deck without shelling out the big bukz, I can't blame you.

[MMogg]

Try kithkins
Seriously, is that hard to take a fast look at the dtb threads and see the lists?

In all honesty, yeah a bit. Most of those threads are well over 50 pages long. The deck list presented on the first page is not always the current build.

Anyway, to the OP, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em! I used to have multiple playsets of FoW and now that they are ridiculously high in value, I wish I had kept my extras. Often times forking out for cards like FoW will never let you down by decreasing in value or playability.

[Fistandantilus]

I guess all of you who said that Goblins is still competitive in Legacy disagree with this:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...lins_Gone.html

[bowvamp]

To tell you the truth, Goblins will only be gone so long as we play with decks that are good against goblins. Goblins may look like it's gone, but like any other archetype, goblins will one day resurface as competitive(so long as wizards keeps in business that is).

[MTG-Fan]

Any of the Ancient Tomb decks can be reasonably run w/o Force, especially if you maindeck 4 Trinisphere.

And the only Tomb deck that needs Goyf is possibly the Green Chalice Aggro deck.

[Eldariel]

I guess all of you who said that Goblins is still competitive in Legacy disagree with this:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...lins_Gone.html

Results disagree with that. Fact is that Goblins are still consistently putting up enough finishes to reach DTW/DTB here every update and will keep doing so unless even more Goblins-hostile cards see print, which seems unlikely.

Stingscourger, Warren Weirdings and to lesser extent non-Goblins removal like StP needs to be adopted, obviously, but results go to show that they are enough to give Gobs a decent win percentage vs. decks relying on Goyf for the match-up such as Countertop and Zoo (since the deck keeps finishing in spite of the omnipresence of Goyf).

[Malchar]

No FoW? Combo Combo Combo Combo Combo Combo Combo Combo

[davidboan]

Try kithkins

Whats wrong with Kithkins? If the Japanese players can do it why can't anybody else?

[FoolofaTook]

38+ lands variants do pretty well when they're played. Mostly because nobody is really prepared for them and in that scenario they have good matchups against everything but storm combo and few real outliers.

[Nessaja]

I guess all of you who said that Goblins is still competitive in Legacy disagree with this:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...lins_Gone.html

That guy is by all means not the authority on Legacy. In fact, nobody really is.

But as Eldariel said, results speak for themselves, Goblins is still winning plenty but I have to say that it's mostly RBg that is doing good right now and that one is hardly any cheaper then a deck with both tarmogoyfs and fow.

[MMogg]

That guy is by all means not the authority on Legacy. In fact, nobody really is.

But as Eldariel said, results speak for themselves, Goblins is still winning plenty but I have to say that it's mostly RBg that is doing good right now and that one is hardly any cheaper then a deck with both tarmogoyfs and fow.

The guy at least prefaced his article by sort of narrowing his analysis down to the east coast, USA.

I agree that no one can be an "expert" in nearly any format because metagames vary so much from region to region.

[Digital Devil]

Well, exactly for the same reason (Duals/Tarmo/FoW are too much of an investment if compared to my monthly wage) I play Stompy variants. Atm, I play Angel/Dragon. I assure you that I wanted to buy FoWs/Bobs/Tarmos and with the same money I would have spent by purchasing goyfs I obtained almost all cards for Dragon Stompy (I already had the 2 mana lands/moxen/cotv, which I bought for 95€ total - shame on me for buying moxen at a higher price) + sideboard. I mean, Dragon Stompy is inconsistent, and certainly it is better to play the good cards than to hate 'em, but if you really can't afford certain cards, just play the others.

TES/Ichorid and Dragon Stompy are my suggestions.

[blueneverfails]

Anyone can complain about the cost of these cards because yea they are expensive, but this is still the cheapest format overall, when you finally buy those duels and fows they will always have value, they will always sell for what you bought them for and sometimes more over time. If you have a problem with the cost go to type 2 for 2 rotations and watch your costs for it practically double compared to what you would have payed in legacy and those cards drop in value a lot after rotation. complaining about the cost wont do anything, because wizard makes very little money on vintage and legacy so they will not do anything to really help the format.(oh and forces are about 22-25 bucks)