[Deck] ATS (Angry Tradewind Survival) - Lock

[Di]

Is two main deck really necessary? Seeing as how they'd be replacing the Naturalizes, what would you put in the sideboard to fill the slots?

They aren't nessessarily replacing Naturalizes. They basically are Naturalizes 3 and 4 for me. I also think 2 main is fine. I mean, it basically means I'm running 2 Uktabi Orangutan and 2 Elvish Lyrist in the maindeck. But I'm considering maybe keeping in Uktabi Orangutan and just dropping Elvish Lyrist for it, because Uktabi has great synergy with Tradewind Rider, which is somewhat important in the Welder Mud matchup(if you're able to pull it off, which you should be able to.)

[kirdape3]

Please tell me you are running Viridian Joiner (the new Naturalize on a stick) when he becomes legal in less than a month. 1GGG to smash down artifact or enchantment is pretty steep, but you don't have to wait a turn like you would under Lyrist.

[Di]

Please tell me you are running Viridian Joiner (the new Naturalize on a stick) when he becomes legal in less than a month. 1GGG to smash down artifact or enchantment is pretty steep, but you don't have to wait a turn like you would under Lyrist.

Uh yeah, read like, the last 3 posts of the thread. They've all been devoted to the new guy, but he's called "Viridian Zealot" as far as I know(at least that's his name on the card.)

[gregg]

Im not too sure about the Zealot.. I mean, it costs 1GGG to activate the same turn, although he doesn't need haste, I still prefer the lyrist and monkey over it, considering less mana to use, and more for other random things

[69-1069452887]

[color=#000000:post_uid6]Hi,

After a long hiatus of pursuing console gaming and Counter-Strike, I'm back to magic :O

Anyway, I'm still interested in ATS.

Diablos, could you give me a quick rundown of how to play it correctly, like what u want to get out when and in what order. My meta is mostly bad goblin aggro and random combo with a fundamental turn around 7-10.

Any advice from anyone is appreciated. Thanks.

<TMK>[/color:post_uid6]

[103-1077288446]

@EnIgMaTiK

Since myself and colin basically made / refined ATS I thought I would answer your question since he's not around for whatever reason.

ATS is a passive control deck that aims to out mana superiority its opponent and set up a defensive front through among other things Tradewind and utility creatures spawned from Survival of the Fittest. Your goal is to establish a 0 permanent lock on the opponent through Tradewind Rider x1-2 and / or any combination of Seedborn Muse / Q. Ranger. You want to set up mana through Birds / Roots / Q. Ranger / Roffelous. You survival for various guys that help answer threats that come up or will come up in a few turns. You have control over recurring the Graveyard and in play abilities through Tradewind or Genesis. You really don't need to swing for this deck to win, and usually are best served sitting back and playing defense to conserve life points. If they won't scoop with 0 permanents then you can kill them then as long as you hold back enough to maintain your Tradewind lock on them. Usually Seedborn + Tradewind + 1 guy+ can swing and then on there turn untap again and bounce there perment till they die. Due to your reactive nature you don't need stuff like Deranged Hermit or kills like that.

Hope this helps,
Mike

[Eclipt1c]

Can't the deck be played more aggressively? I usually like to drop Masticore as early as possible then build up the lock. Also, after looking at shadowskyno2's Munchies deck, I liked the idea of using Goblin Pyromancer for anti-Goblins. You can side out something like a Gilded Drake, and side this in. This gives you Walls, Sharpshooter, Core, and Pyromancer as good anti-Goblin cards.

[troopatroop]

Does this deck do well in tournaments? I might play it a few times... just doesnt seem very quick to me.

[Eclipt1c]

It's pretty quick, it can easily get 7 mana turn 3 with 2 forests, a Birds of Paradise, and a Rofellos. Basically if you can get Rofellos out and keep him out you'll have massive amounts of mana to do whatever you want.

[69-1069452887]

Hi,

Thanks glow.

There's one thing that I'm afraid of and that's control. We have mostly bad aggro, but im not afraid of that. Or the homemade combos. I'm worried about counterspells. I've playtested with the deck and pretty much any deck running a decent number of permission and counters can easily keep survival off the table. And its not very often you draw into another survival. And, I've lost too many games to random decks because I cant draw a SoF in time. Please advise on ways to alleviate this situation. Thanks.

[Di]

Can't the deck be played more aggressively? I usually like to drop Masticore as early as possible then build up the lock. Also, after looking at shadowskyno2's Munchies deck, I liked the idea of using Goblin Pyromancer for anti-Goblins. You can side out something like a Gilded Drake, and side this in. This gives you Walls, Sharpshooter, Core, and Pyromancer as good anti-Goblin cards

More aggressive? It's like as aggressive as can be, except it isn't attacking :;):

Gilded Drake isn't very strong in the matchup, but it has it's uses, the main one being the taking of Goblin Warcheif, screwing up their speed. If it also becomes a problem, you could take Lackey too, or their Sharpshooter. The thing is, the deck already has a pretty good game against Goblins to begin with. Wall of Roots keeps them at bay for you to build up some time, Stifle hoses Ringleader, and stops Recruiter, Lackey, Matron, and Gempalm, and of course Masticore says "Die". The fact that it can block is the it's best asset. I find the reason why Goblins does so well is because there are a high number of decks that can't block Piledriver and friends. Decks like Dragon, WelderMud, or Trenches/Smash are prime examples. If any of them don't get a start that can slow them down(or in Dragon's case, win), then they just flat out die. In most of the aggro decks, the creatures are just too small to handle Piledrivers, so they die too. 0/5 wall stops im for a little while. That, and you have infinate Frog which buys more than enough time.

Does this deck do well in tournaments? I might play it a few times... just doesnt seem very quick to me.

I've played the deck in tournaments around 20 times I think. I've missed top8 once(I believe I came in 10th), and I've missed top4 maybe 3-4 times. It's just nuts how explosive the deck is. In terms of speed, it's easily as fast as Food Chain or Dragon. Problem is getting what it needs for that speed. I've played hands that have turn 4 double Tradewind Rider+Seedborn Muse madness and other craziness. The deck is very fast, consistant and versitile(sp?).

[Eclipt1c]

More aggressive? It's like as aggressive as can be, except it isn't attacking :;):

That's what I'm talking about. I think throwing Masticore head first at them as soon as possible and then right after that start setting up the tradewind lock would be the best method.

[103-1077288446]

That would be incorect. The whole point of the deck is to gain tempo advantage. Once you lock preferably through Seedborn + Tradewind + guy you bounce all there permenets. If the fail to scoop at that point you swing on your turn untap on theres and bounce there freshly played land and answere there other spell as necessary. Verses decks like dragon you have to be more careful as they can Ritual Necromancy durring the end step when you bounce a land but whatever. The deck is build and played aggresively in board position but defensively in aggresive nature. Masticore is not in there because it can swing better than the rest of the deck, it is in there as its colorless removal that can be Survivaled for. That was reasoning behind nearly every card in the deck when I initialy built it in its alpha stages. We had stuff like Volraths Shapeshifter x1 and Naught / Hellion for the combo but it seemed so out of place. We also experimented with Deranged Hermit for a while. Yes its solid as far as setting up chump blocking but the ATS players turned to aggresive with it. It truely has no core functionality in the deck if it lacks Opposition. I initianly had it in my RecSur build 2 years ago due to that. We phased it out as there were more cards that would set us up for the win and not act as win more cards. I recently re added Opposition to the build as I run 3 Stearling Groves for more consistent Survivals as well as a up in the blue card count for FOW to become more efficient. Stasis also functions as a lock compontent that can either buy you time or win outright.

Hope this helps explain the core of the deck. I'll try to write a primer this weekend about the theory and application of this deck after I get all my work done. I will cover the thought behind each card as well as combinations that each card shares with other cards as well as matchup analysis and SB swaps. A primer is needed more so for a play idiology than anything. ATS is the most complecated deck in 1.5 for a reason as it offers you T1 Keeper like functionality except with guys. You often have to learn how to think 3-4 turns ahead of where you are to play it properly.

Mike



Edited By glow on 1077711601

[Di]

That's what I'm talking about. I think throwing Masticore head first at them as soon as possible and then right after that start setting up the tradewind lock would be the best method.

I don't think I completely explained my statement. It's not like you're just going to say go with untapped creatures while the opponent does nothing, of course the deck will be attacking. The deck attacks a lot, but that's not what ATS's focus is. It's designed to control the game, not bash face. If I want to bash face, I can play a much worse aggro deck.

I'll try to write a primer this weekend about the theory and application of this deck after I get all my work done. I will cover the thought behind each card as well as combinations that each card shares with other cards as well as matchup analysis and SB swaps.

I've.Been.Working.On.Primer.For.About.A.Month. Wtf? I just wonder how you'd ever be able to get time to work on a primer with all this work you have to do, and yet you can't buy time to stay on the website for over a few weeks...

If you want to help me on it, you're more than welcome. But, for the record, I totally dismiss your decklists, because they are trying to use Back to Basics with almost as many non-basics as Tariq White uses. Come on . :p.

A primer is needed more so for a play idiology than anything. ATS is the most complecated deck in 1.5 for a reason as it offers you T1 Keeper like functionality except with guys. You often have to learn how to think 3-4 turns ahead of where you are to play it properly.

Unfortunately nobody else really understands the true difficulty of the deck.



Edited By Diablos on 1077742727

[Eclipt1c]

// Manipulation
3 Brainstorm
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Stearling Grove - Gets Survival now, not later like Sylvan.

// Counters
4 Force of Will - format is to fast for leak now.
1 Mystic Snake

// Lock
4 Tradewind Rider
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Stasis // Lots of silly combo's with this including Tradewind or Q. Ranger + Birds
1 Opposition

// Teh Graveyard
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis

// Utility
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Masticore
1 New Naturalize GG 2/1 dork // yes i know its worse than either lyrasis / sex monkie but its one spot.
1 Radient Dragoon - better w/ tradewind than feeder
1 Spore Frog // Format is to fast for Weaver
1 Gilded Drake

// Mana Dorks
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Wall of Roots
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

// Land
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Savannah
1 Taiga
5 Forest

Sideboard:
3 Stifle // Dragon / FCG / Other
4 Chill // FCG / Sligh
3 Ground Seal
1 Seal of Clensing // Humility sucks mmm k, tutorable.
3 Back to Basics // Q Ranger plays around stuff as does birds.
1 Monk Idealist // Recursion of Clensing

Looking at your list glow, it looks to me like this version of the deck is a bit more careful than the other one. I'm not quite sure as to which version I should be playing in my metagame. My metagame is mostly dragon (No VA birthplace of Spoils/Gamble Dragon), goblins of all sorts, and some keeper/trenches variants running around. However, my friends also play Parfait, Void, and secret force. I had some questions about your deck as well. First of all about Opposition. I see the synergy and how well it works with the deck, but it seems to me like its a win more card and not really necessary to the deck. I was also wondering if you've been missing the Sylvan Libraries at all. Once again, as with the Opposition, the Stasis doesn't seem all that necessary to the deck, albeit synergistic.

I've also been having some problems with Wasteland/Dusbowl disruption on my Tiaga. I know haste isn't essential to the deck, but I always wish I had it when I don't, and it has cost me a few games. I'm currently running Diablos' setup and I'm not quite sure what to cut for Cartographer.

[Di]

I'm currently running Diablos' setup and I'm not quite sure what to cut for Cartographer.

Cartographer is in the sideboard currently, but I'm trying to get him in the maindeck. Currently, I'm trying both the removal of the maindeck Spike Feeder(goes to SB in Cart's place) and Cartographer as the 61st card. So far, I really like the 61 cards.

I know haste isn't essential to the deck, but I always wish I had it when I don't, and it has cost me a few games

That statement pretty much says you have no clue on what you're doing. Haste is *the* number one thing in this deck. The reason why the deck is so strong and fast is because of Anger. I'd know, we didn't include Anger until June 2003, three months after we constructed the deck. Before Anger, the deck was still really, really good. Adding Anger just made it 10x better, because it made you at least a turn and a half faster than the pre-Anger build. I think that's quite a difference in the game. Plus, Anger plays a huge role in beating Dragon. If you can stall them for a turn or two, then when Anger goes in the grave, your Tradewinds, Sharpshooter, and Lyrist are all ready to win for you. Viridian Zealot does too, but I ph34r that the four mana it requires could be too much. Granted, he doesn't have haste, but I find it tough to be able to Survival for him, and have 4 mana open all the time against Dragon.

I had some questions about your deck as well. First of all about Opposition. I see the synergy and how well it works with the deck, but it seems to me like its a win more card and not really necessary to the deck. I was also wondering if you've been missing the Sylvan Libraries at all. Once again, as with the Opposition, the Stasis doesn't seem all that necessary to the deck, albeit synergistic.

Glow pretty much gave himself a game loss against control with the removal of Sylvan Library. Adding Opposition and Stasis, that's just silly talk. Synergy within the core of the deck, yes. Are they good for the deck, no. Are they needed to win, no. Sure they can be fetched for, but I don't think they are nessesary, at all. You guys can ask any of the control players I've played against in Syracuse with the deck(Bob, Tariq, your heads should pop up). Almost 75% of the time I won those rounds(game 1, BtB and Choke clean up game two and three) was because of Sylvan Library. It gives the deck card advantage that control can't stop. Yes, they StP a Tradewind, which is a bummer, but I go through cards and cards and cards every turn, I'll most likely have more to cast on you. It's very key in winning the control matchup in the 1st game, because the tools of the deck don't function well when they aren't backed by card advantage against decks that crush our board.

Looking at your list glow, it looks to me like this version of the deck is a bit more careful than the other one. I'm not quite sure as to which version I should be playing in my metagame. My metagame is mostly dragon (No VA birthplace of Spoils/Gamble Dragon), goblins of all sorts, and some keeper/trenches variants running around

I strongly favor the maindeck Stifles in my version. They make bad things turn good, like your game one against Dragon and Food Chain. Running more non-basics in the deck isn't more careful. Even if Birds, Quirion Ranger, other mana producers negate the effects, that doesn't mean it won't hurt me. There have been plenty of games where I've been stumped on a small supply of mana ecasue of BtB, and Mike's list would suffer more from it. In the matchups that BtB comes in for, they can just say "Hello, my name is Fire, and I'll be sending your Quirion Ranger and Birds of Paradise to Hell. Have a wonderful day".

His list is also a bit weaker against Dragon, because it's a lot slower. Even though, as a Dragon player, I can sshrug Tormod's Crypt off, it should be played. It's a turn 1 answer that will buy lots of time. Ground Seal is better, replaces itself, and shuts them down too, but I really like the idea of paying 0 mana over 2 mana, so I can cast other spells(like Lyrist, Stifle, Naturalize, etc). The only plus in Ground Seal is that you can tutor for it. Slowly, like, 3rd turn maybe, but you can. And the problem with that is, while you tap out to cast Sterling Grove, they go off, because God knows he'll have a Duress or Force backup for your Force.

[gregg]

Here's the list I've been playing (granted, there's no dragon, fcg, or anything like that here, and it works fine)
// Lands
7 Forest
4 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath

// Creatures
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Genesis
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Anger
1 Mystic Snake
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Tradewind Rider
4 Wall of Roots
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Elvish Lyrist
2 Spike Feeder
1 Spike Weaver
1 Gilded Drake
1 Cartographer
1 Uktabi Orangutan

// Spells
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Brainstorm
2 Sylvan Library
3 Force of Will
3 Mana Leak

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Chill
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 2 Naturalize
SB: 4 Stifle
SB: 1 Auramancer
SB: 1 Spike Feeder

Reasonings:
Spike Weaver over Spore Frog- theres more traditional sligh here than goblin sligh, so I'd rather have a beefier guy than one that dies to ever piece of removal they have. Not to mention, in response to a lightning bolt or whatever, I can just move counters to another creature.

2 Spike Feeders- Even though there is a couple of sligh decks, there's still a lot of wastelands and suiblack. so i had to cut something for cartographer, and this was it.

5 fetches- i found 6 to be too many, so 5 is fine for me, i usualy have them get 2 tropicals and a taiga, after that, i usually don't need them.

0 Masticore- I have the sharpshooter for that, core costs 4 (yes mike, I know, with rofello's he's nuts, but w/e) shooter sitll does the same job as core, and if the creature has a toughness of 3 or more, I'm most likely going to take it, and not shoot it down.

6 counters- at first, it was 4 mana leak, then I took out 1 something and 2 leaks for 3 forces, then I took something else out for the 3rd leak (6 counters is much needed against landstill, but I still don't draw them enough)

Cartographer- Obv, we know what he's there for.

sb:
4 chill- sligh sucks, its my answer to sligh basically, well, atleast make them slow as hell.
3 choke- landstill, donate, and other stupid blue decks.
2 Naturalize- donate, scepters, land tax, scroll racks, masticores, etc.
4 Stifle- donate, wastelands, fetchlands, etc.
1 Auramancer- there's quite a few decks out there in my metagame that like to kill my enchantments
1 Spike Feeder- sligh, donate, etc.

[Eclipt1c]

I still like the addition of Wirewood Guardian into the deck. It serves as a tutorable fetchland, for when you need land, usually Taiga.

[Di]

I still like the addition of Wirewood Guardian into this deck. It serves as a tutorable fetchland, for when you need land, usually Taiga.

I really liked it too, until I realized the bad things about it. It was great being a Taiga whenever I needed it, but the problem is, it's a land that costs mana to use. I really hated that. In testing, I got screwed over because I didn't have my 2nd land a few times(I removed a fetch instead of this at the time). I decided I didn't want to take that risk, so I dumped it.

[gregg]

I personally never liked the idea of the guardian, maybe because I had to pay 3 mana to get a land, just didn't suit me for a deck that wants so much mana early game.