[Archetype Discussion] Goblins vs. Vampires

[Gocho]

Goblins are slightly better at rebuilding after a sweeper then Elves are. They also generate card advantage more naturally. I think the biggest difference is Goblin Matron, if Elves had an Elf Matron they'd be superior.

There are many things that Elves are superior at, it's just a archetype that many players miss-use - people haven't settled on a list even though some very good lists float around.

What about Elvish Harbinger? Is almost a Matron, but don't cantrip himself.

Wirewood Herald would help to rebuild.

[jrsthethird]

Mirri the Cursed is pretty good too, but not like we're looking for 4-drops here.

[Nessaja]

What about Elvish Harbinger? Is almost a Matron, but don't cantrip himself.

That's a huge difference. What Elvish Harbinger offers isn't worth 3 mana.

[SpeedOfDark]

why they rule:
merfolk: fastest blue tribal. Slower than goblins and elves, but makes up by the fact that they have access to all of blue's goodness.
goblins: fastest consistent tribal aggro.
elves: slower than goblins in aggro, but arguably faster in combo. However elf combos are usually very easy to disrupt.

[SpeedOfDark]

That's a huge difference. What Elvish Harbinger offers isn't worth 3 mana.

Agreed. The only time I think she is ever worth anything is if you are about to play a sylvan messenger right after her. But that's too situational and still too expensive, there are a ton of elves better suited for an elf deck. And if you really need a tutor, then play with weird harvest or something. At least this one can go broken if you have a lot of mana available.

[Tacosnape]

Two things.

1. 1-drops.

2. Inevitability.

Goblins has Goblin Lackey and Vampires doesn't (And don't even try to make the comparison between Dark Ritual and Lackey - They aren't even in the same universe in this context) and Goblins wins a lot more long games than Vampires.

[Eldariel]

Since Elves were bought into the discussion, let's not forget that they ARE finishing rather well; they lie just below the radar, but consistently put up a couple of Top 8s each month. They tend to be split over multiple archetypes though (Elf Survival has been a part of Survival's DTW-status on multiple occasions) and there's little unified discussion on comparing the pros and cons of the various approaches and the development of various Elf-builds is kinda slow, and very little optimization has been done on that front, while Vial Goblins and Merfolk have pretty much been optimized to the 75th.

Nobody has figured out exactly what approach is optimal for Elves, and it's not surprising given Elves lend themselves well to multiple different types of combo decks and aggro-builds; while building Goblins or Merfolk is rather straightforward (though Goblin Sligh hung around for aeons until Vial Gobs pretty much took over the tribe), with Elves there's a ton more different routes the deck could take due to the large number of Elves of relatively equal efficiency with various upsides and downsides. Contrast Goblins where the core of the deck is heads and shoulders above most of the options, and Merfolk where only a handful of cards in existence do what you want done and thus you pretty much have to play them. It doesn't help that in addition to huge number of relatively equal solid Elves (and various combinations inside the tribe), there's a large number of very powerful support spells available for the deck in green.


If talking about "good Legacy tribals", I'd have no qualms listing Elves up there, right after Goblins and Merfolk.

[(nameless one)]

I agree, Elves are there. It is under-appreciated because it doesnt have a certain build.

Some will run it with Survival, Some straight aggro and some combo.

I think the reason why Elves is also under-appreciated is because they do not have the ability to disrupt. But really, the efficiency and redundancy of Elves make up for lacking the ability to disrupt.

Honestly, I have yet to miss a top8 with Elves around my area. The only reason why I am playing other decks is because I did not want to look like a total noob. Plus almost everyone in my playgroup would dedicated half of their sideboard against Tribal.

[Cthuloo]

Two things.

1. 1-drops.

2. Inevitability.

Goblins has Goblin Lackey and Vampires doesn't (And don't even try to make the comparison between Dark Ritual and Lackey - They aren't even in the same universe in this context) and Goblins wins a lot more long games than Vampires.

Even though I agree that one cannot really compare Lackey and Ritual, I think the biggest difference is that Goblins can accelerate into really broken stuff (Warchief, Siege-Gang, Ringleader, Matron), while Vampires can accelerate into... what, nighthawk?

[pippo84]

Merfolk and Goblins are really good decks.
I think Elves have a lot of potential and are just below Goblins and Merfolk. They can play combo or aggro, they are very fast and can also play NO Progenitus if they want to.
Vampires on the other hand have nothing. Ok Nighthawk is really strong, but then? No 1 drops, no drops at 2, and no draw engine.
Black offers just Dark Ritual (but it has a completely different use of Goblin Lackey) and Thoughtseize (but Merfolk have counters that's better). Vampires are slow, and don't have a good mid-range strategy so they are awful.

[troopatroop]

Yeah, but the soldier "cheat into play" costs 3 AND needs to attack.

[Infinitium]

The soldier core of Preeminent Captain, Enlistment Officer and Mirror Entity is actually mighty strong in a Chalice Aggro shell (along certain intruiguing cards such as Elspeth and Noble Templar). Burrenton Bombardier also works surprisingly well as a combat trick/lord of sorts. I'd keep an eye out for it once wizards starts to print playable 2W soldiers (which is probably just a matter of time since it's a supported tribe at the time being).

As for elves, let's not forget that they've gained some amazing new cards for the past year. Archdruid and Joraga Warcaller are both bombs in constructed legacy, and the cantrip elf is amazing way to promote resilience as well as another draw engine with symbiote. Saying that the combo is easily disrupted is also something of a misnomer as the deck is literally composed of fast mana and card advantae engines and can run answers maindeck (ie Viridian Zealot) courtesy of Summoner's Pact or survival.

EDIT: Also the posting interphase needs a "cards" quickbutton big time.

[Gocho]

EDIT: Also the posting interphase needs a "cards" quickbutton big time.

I Agree

[jrsthethird]

The soldier core of Preeminent Captain, Enlistment Officer and Mirror Entity is actually mighty strong in a Chalice Aggro shell (along certain intruiguing cards such as Elspeth and Noble Templar). Burrenton Bombardier also works surprisingly well as a combat trick/lord of sorts. I'd keep an eye out for it once wizards starts to print playable 2W soldiers (which is probably just a matter of time since it's a supported tribe at the time being).

As for elves, let's not forget that they've gained some amazing new cards for the past year. Archdruid and Joraga Warcaller are both bombs in constructed legacy, and the cantrip elf is amazing way to promote resilience as well as another draw engine with symbiote. Saying that the combo is easily disrupted is also something of a misnomer as the deck is literally composed of fast mana and card advantae engines and can run answers maindeck (ie Viridian Zealot) courtesy of Summoner's Pact or survival.

EDIT: Also the posting interphase needs a "cards" quickbutton big time.

Also Ballyrush Banneret for Warchief-effects.

[Antonius]

I wouldn't be surprised if elves comes out of no where and wins one of these upcoming SCG opens. The deck is very, very powerful, with so many different ways to function. The best builds, IMO, are 10 lord builds with survival and NO prog. Forestwalk gets there, Sylvan messenger is just as good as Lackey and mana dorks > Aether Vial (though aether vial's function is sorely missed sometimes).

As for Team Edward, I have a friend that's done surprisingly well with her build. But comparing Vampires to Goblins, Folk, Elves and other weenie tribes is kind of pointless. There are only four truly playable vamps: Gatekeeper, Nighthawk, Nocturnus and Bloodwitch. And as everyone's pointed out, none of those are 1-2cc, so the form of the deck naturally has to compensate by going to a more midrange strategy.
Splashing red for firespout or green for deed seems sensible, as that would allow you to abuse the fact that your dudes have flying and high CMC. Sure, there isn't as much synergy between vampires as there is in Folk/Goblins/Elves, but you really only need two vampires to blow someone out: Nighthawk and Nocturnus. That leaves room for the rest of the cards in your deck to be answers and board sweepers. And, don't forget that no matter how much the game progresses, or what new cards are printed, sometimes throwing hymns up someones ass is enough to just get there.

Also, somebody mentioned Zombie tribal? It already exists as a competitive deck. Some people call it Ichorid, but I prefer to think of it as zombies, seeing as how it makes like 14 of them on turn 2.

[mercs]

Also, somebody mentioned Zombie tribal? It already exists as a competitive deck. Some people call it Ichorid, but I prefer to think of it as zombies, seeing as how it makes like 14 of them on turn 2.

LOL, I very much agree that dredge is the premier zombie varient.
In terms of grading, Elves does receive high marks, but I usually go by a different way of ranking. (still 5 cat's but semi-different aspects). It also works to rank most decks in the meta.

In no order of importance:
1. consistency - for consistent cheats and good curves
2. aggro - how much of an undisrupted clock they can make
3. recovery - best change in momentum. ie: after a sweep
4. disruption - do they removalcreatures/components from hand/grave/play?
5. control - do they set up well defensively or lock out ppl in any way.

Then i give an estimate of the decks ability in that cat from 1-10. (10 being best)

HERE"S GOBLINS (a little inflated, but just to provide an example) ==39/50
1. 9
2. 10
3. 8
4. 7
5. 5 -some rate waste/port higher, but i do not imo.

Merfolk == 39/50
1. 8
2. 9
3. 7
4. 7
5. 8

Zombies (dredge- i rated 4 & 5 a bit high b/c of the consistent therapy and iona strategies) ==37/50
1. 9
2. 10
3. 4
4. 7
5. 7

Vampires (-_-) == 27/50
1. 8
2. 5
3. 2
4. 7
5. 5

Elves (-_-) ==26/50
1. 9
2. 9
3. 4
4. 1
5. 3

This makes it much more clear (for me) as to why elves has a hard time. It's recovery skills are fairly average, and it has no disruption/defense mechanism.

As for vampires, they don't put on a good natural clock, so they have to really heavily on decent (but not amazing), disruption strategy to get going. This just doesn't seem like it can survive in a meta, where i feel zoo looks like this:

Zoo == 41/50
1. 9
2. 10
3. 7
4. 8
5. 6

AGAIN, these are strictly just my opinion on the rankings. If you feel differently about how i graded, let me know! As far as I'm concerned, the holes in elves and vampires will drop their overall value in anyone's grading in the end.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Vampires get dark ritual and card removal with black. That's a good start. But because of its higher cmc, its gonna run on a slower clock putting in more mid-deck range... legacy is either Fast Aggro, Fast Combo (win before you lose), or control in most cases. For all cases Vamps is a lil' too slow.

Vamps get their version of savannah lion, lacerator, and bloodghast. Other than that, they can't compete with the speed and incessant cantrips of goblins when it comes to fast aggro and racing decks like burn or combo. And just a lil' slow to put a dent or kill control decks like MBC, Stax, Landstill. But the #1 reason, imo, is not enough people play it. Think about it, if everyone uses burn.. you will probably see more burn decks placing, common sense.

[beez]

I wouldn't be surprised if elves comes out of no where and wins one of these upcoming SCG opens. The deck is very, very powerful, with so many different ways to function. The best builds, IMO, are 10 lord builds with survival and NO prog. Forestwalk gets there, Sylvan messenger is just as good as Lackey and mana dorks > Aether Vial (though aether vial's function is sorely missed sometimes).

As for Team Edward, I have a friend that's done surprisingly well with her build. But comparing Vampires to Goblins, Folk, Elves and other weenie tribes is kind of pointless. There are only four truly playable vamps: Gatekeeper, Nighthawk, Nocturnus and Bloodwitch. And as everyone's pointed out, none of those are 1-2cc, so the form of the deck naturally has to compensate by going to a more midrange strategy.
Splashing red for firespout or green for deed seems sensible, as that would allow you to abuse the fact that your dudes have flying and high CMC. Sure, there isn't as much synergy between vampires as there is in Folk/Goblins/Elves, but you really only need two vampires to blow someone out: Nighthawk and Nocturnus. That leaves room for the rest of the cards in your deck to be answers and board sweepers. And, don't forget that no matter how much the game progresses, or what new cards are printed, sometimes throwing hymns up someones ass is enough to just get there.

Also, somebody mentioned Zombie tribal? It already exists as a competitive deck. Some people call it Ichorid, but I prefer to think of it as zombies, seeing as how it makes like 14 of them on turn 2.

Exactly on the vamp stuff!! I have found this out the hard way trying to play vamps competitively. But I have had some pretty successful runs on other days because as he says just busting up someone with a couple hymn's and other black nastiness making it hard to keep any creatures out, or cards in their hand, or them having a graveyard, can go a long way when you only need a turn or two with a nocturnus or a creature or two to finish it off. I have found it is all about the midgame rather than a super fast start (other than key discarding) or a poor long game. Honestly the Gate looks to be better at using the key cards and doesn't need the vampire synergy anyway for the beatdown only having to reserve an edict for Percy.

[catmint]

A better question would be...

What do goblins and merfolk have that Elves don't have?

Elves are in my opinion, the most underrated and underused tribe in legacy. They have fantastic lords, absurdly good synergy, tons of 1cc mana generators that let you cheat creatures into play, and their own Fact or Fiction on a 2/2 stick (that they can bounce back and reuse over and over again.

I would not say that Goblins and Merfolk are generally "stronger" tribes. Also evles is not underused IMO. Metagame changes aside (becuase Merfolk was so high and is so bad right now...). Elves always kept showing up in GP's/Big Tournament Top 16 or local tourneys before and after Mental Misste...just like Goblins.

Comparing the 3 tribes in a vacuum:

Merfolk has the best color and preys on the best color with Lord of Atlantais & Cursecatcher

Goblins have some sick grinding potential. I agree comapred to elves the biggest advantage is matron, but they are still missing haste and piledriver which is important or tutorable edict/direct damage or card neutral removal effects to make aggro elves a deck.

But why would you try to grind like goblins if the natural synergy is enabling you to kill the opponent by turn 3 60% of the time making an almost infinite amount of mana.

So in a tournament between these 3 tribes: elves is clearly the best and beats the others by a comfortable margin (even though Merfolk has some counterspells). In the real world out there elves is a combo deck that looses to other combo decks and is altough more powerful in what it does much less consistant than the other 2 tribes.

[RJM]

Whoa, necro'd from almost 2 years ago?

It is always interesting to read what feels good or not good enough for legacy according to players even just 2 years ago, though.

And before this gets locked, just have to say, if I was going to play tribal in legacy right now... It'd be zombies. Suck it, vamps.