WG Aggro deck.. what to do against Control decks..

[_erbs_]

Hello,
Im just wondering if your a WG aggro deck what game plan must you have so that you could beat control decks. Normally any WG aggro deck thrives in the midrange battle as its not as fast as zoo nor have the direct damage which red has. Against control decks like rock or MBC their game plan is really designed to crush such decks.

So is there any out or solution to this problem ?

Thanks

[Draener]

Against non-blue control decks, Eternal witness does a pretty good job of keeping you in the game. Against blue... well witness does help but choke is king. Hard to fight back when all your mana is a lotus petal. Also vengevine... hymn to tourach? No Problem.

[perm]

I recently made a decklist in the development forum, and I do just great against control of all types, blue included. Witness is a fantastic boon that turns their counterspells into inefficient cards by giving a lot of virtual negative CA. Mangara/karakas is fantastic against CB top, and SF mystic is great for tutoring removal protections. SoLS is essentially protection from format that keeps recurring any destroyed creatures.

[Tacosnape]

Hello,
Im just wondering if your a WG aggro deck what game plan must you have so that you could beat control decks. Normally any WG aggro deck thrives in the midrange battle as its not as fast as zoo nor have the direct damage which red has. Against control decks like rock or MBC their game plan is really designed to crush such decks.

So is there any out or solution to this problem ?

Thanks

GW Aggro is what I play most often lately, and I'm 9-1 against pretty good players playing Rock. So here's what I've run into:

1. Run guys that get you card advantage. Weathered Wayfarer, Knight of the Reliquary, and especially Eternal Witness. It's a beast. The right number generally feels like about 2.6, so pack three if you're facing a lot of control.

2. Don't run Tarmogoyf. It's absolute shit in a good GW Aggro build, because you're counting so heavily on your opponent making it bigger for you and you've got so much damage potential already that you need your guys to do utility stuff. There's better options. I run 29 creatures in my list and have 0 Tarmogoyfs in there. Run guys who help do stuff.

3. If all else fails, run Sylvan Library. Untap with one in play on your third turn and you beat The Rock. Period.

4. Bump your Horizon Canopy total to 4 if you haven't already.

I went 4-0 last week with a close 1-2 semifinal loss to Elves Combo (Which I might have been able to beat had I been able to find all my Paths for sideboard and if my opponent hadn't been David Vo.) On the way I beat Doomsday Show, Rock, BG Poison, and Affinity. So there's solutions. Just keep testing it.

[CorpT]

Mind posting a list, Taco? That sounds interesting.

[Draener]

I also would be interested in seeing your list Taco. Wonder how similar to mine it is.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Hello,
Im just wondering if your a WG aggro deck what game plan must you have so that you could beat control decks. Normally any WG aggro deck thrives in the midrange battle as its not as fast as zoo nor have the direct damage which red has. Against control decks like rock or MBC their game plan is really designed to crush such decks.

So is there any out or solution to this problem ?

Thanks

As has been said earlier, card advantage. Eternal Witness, Kitchen Finks, Vengevine, Sylvan Library, etc. are all excellent. Choke is very good at shutting down blue decks post-board. If you're having a lot of trouble with MBC you may want to consider narrow hate like Compost or Lifeforce.

The alternative is to just convince all your friends to play combo. They'll crush board-control decks, but probably crush you as well so that would be a double-edged sword.

[_erbs_]

@Tacosnape
Can you pm or post your list. yeah i was thinking of adding witness in my build but im worry about it getting to crowded in the 3 curve. Currently i have 7 3cc creatures not including the equips which is plus 2, giving me a total of 9 i only run 3 noble.

Nice record against rock.., as for me i never won against rock in tourny's or just playtesting.

@Draener
Are you having good success against rock and control decks ? can you share or pm your list ?

Thanks for all the posts !!

[Draener]

Here's My current list:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post525612

Here's a link to a tourney report I wrote up a while back:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...nderella-Story

I am undefeated vs rock, and I have played a lot of different lists. As for control, you have a pretty good counterbalance matchup, and a decent landstill matchup. Pernicious deeds and Lavamancer, however, are your worst nightmare. I'de also retool the sideboard a bit to your meta.

[_erbs_]

Here's My current list:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post525612

Here's a link to a tourney report I wrote up a while back:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...nderella-Story

I am undefeated vs rock, and I have played a lot of different lists. As for control, you have a pretty good counterbalance matchup, and a decent landstill matchup. Pernicious deeds and Lavamancer, however, are your worst nightmare. I'de also retool the sideboard a bit to your meta.

Thanks for the list
I've tried it there are some creatures that seem out of place. 3 kor skyfisher seems too much i know its nice to bounce jotuns or witness with it or save your creatures but its almost same as flickerwisp. And having 4 flickerwisp is too much aswell as its kinda weak without vials. The ghostway trick is such a blast to play with haha. I feel it needs stoneforge mystic as depending on the sylvan to get jitte is pretty hard.

As for tarmo i think it still deserves a slot 2-3 pcs as against black its almost a sure 4/5. So i've changed your list to something like this.

Lands [21]
3 wasteland
3 horizon canopy
4 windswept heath
4 savannah
1 flooded strand
1 misty rainforest
2 forest
2 plains
1 karakas

Spells [12]
4 swords to plowshares
4 aether vial
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sofi
2 sylvan library

Creatures [27]
3 noble hierarch
3 mother of runes
4 qasali pridemage
2 phyrexian revoker
2 stoneforge mystic
4 serra avenger
3 tarmogoyf
3 knight of the reliquary
3 eternal witness

SB [15]
1 bojuka bog
1 tormods crypt
3 burrenton forgetender
2 gaddock teeg
2 ethersworn canonist
2 true believer
1 path to exile
1 journey to nowhere
2 krosan grip

[dahcmai]

I run Momentary Blink in mine, though I abuse the crap out of the card. It's still very useful for Eternal Witness, saving any creature, reusing a stoneforge, and several other things. I have a single tundra I fetch up to re-use the flashback if it comes to that. Absolutely insane if you have specialty creatures like Tividar. Eternal Witness becomes a virtually unkillable monster being able to bring it back over and over.

If you don't use the graveyard at all in the main deck, add a single Genesis and a Gigapede and you pretty much beat control right there. They are really hard to beat if you know they aren't bringing in any grave hate. You just randomally dump them, them overwhelm them with ease.

[Draener]

Cut the avenger, run the flickerwisp. You have enough two drops, you don't need another one that is only good with vial. Flickerwisp is also good against control decks, having the ability to remove one of their board control elements for a turn is often enough to win it. Also the inevitability that it provides with witness is pretty awesome.

[Tacosnape]

Here's my most recent list, though it's always under revision.

4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
2 Weathered Wayfarer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Eternal Witness
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Stoneforge Mystic

SB:
4 Path to Exile
2 Worldly Tutor (Should be 3, but I don't own 3)
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library

I'm about to try cutting Weathered Wayfarer/Stoneforge Mystic/the third Forest, adding 3 Aether Vials and a third Witness, and seeing where things go. Also trying to work two Krosan Grip into the board, as I struggled with Counterbalance recently at the last tournament and wanted it almost every match.

The Worldly Tutor board means I can probably cut Mindbreak Trap, given that they can be boarded in to help find Teeg and Canonist, though I have a strong feeling that without them my Belcher and Spiral Tide matchups will become unfavorable, so I might keep them around depending on the metagame. Being able to hit Kataki is beautiful against Affinity, 5/3, Thopter Foundry, etc.

I went 4-0 last week and won my Semifinal match before splitting the finals, but this was more from a combination of skill and SEVERE luck in avoiding my first sanctioned loss to Rock (Blind topdecked STP twice after turn one Seize, turn two Confidant) and less so the refinedness of the decklist. I beat a GW Aggro mirror (Random!), High Tide, Rock, and Ultimate Walker, then barely edged some impressive Countertop-Cawblade deck in the semis.

EDIT: I should also clarify that our metagame is riddled with burn and combo decks at the moment, despite me somehow not getting paired against any of them, which is why my Sylvan Library count is reduced to one in sideboard. I still think it's a fantastic card.

[Draener]

Holy cow, that's a lot of maindecked hatebears. I guess combo is pretty prevalent in your meta? As for the sb, I have always been satisfied with two grips in my board. There is always atleast one match where I board them in. Maybe cut a path and a teeg for two? Obviously, vial also does a ton against counterbalance decks as well.

[_erbs_]

After several hours of playtesting on MWS with the above list here are my thoughts.

• Syvlan Library - is better compared to SDT for in this kind of shell
- needs fetch or shuffle effects to max out its cantrip

• Eternal Witness - Tacosnape, your 2.6 average is right on the money. i've tried 3 but its too much as there are time you can only just recur are lands bec of the lack of spell. I feel if you want to up its count you have to run more spells besides 4 stp. vs decks that dish out lots of creature kills shes nice but i think the right number is 2 main 1 in the SB.

• Wayfarer - is a nice card but somewhat hard to use if you run equips , you definitely need 4 noble to abuse its ability.

• Mother of runes - running 4 is too much as all she does is just stand and protect your threats, well i guess if your build is somewhat like yours Tacosnape in where you run lots of hate beaters i guess 4 is okay but the problem with it the deck becomes very very reliant on equips.

- a question i've been asking myself over and over is how big of an impact does she does in the game if your deck doesn't setup like dt nor have disruption creatures. i was wondering what if i cut her and add a more offensive 1 drop.

• Mirran Saders - in my old list i used to have 2 and it was okay when i removed it i really felt his loss as he could really do serious damage when carrying an equipment or hold off fat enemy creatures. For now i will put 2 in my main again.

• Serra avenger - i felt her impact when i removed her in my list while testing.. but she needs equips in order to do real damage. too much ground forces by your opponents without jitte is a pain.

Also compared to my original list which runs mangara for midgame the deck currently i have is just plain aggro no tricks what so ever i don't know how will that pan out. Also with that direction i was thinking that maybe cutting mor for maybe loam lion or isamaru or a more offensive 1 drop would be much better. But if i was to run loam lion im slowly becoming a more zooish deck. I haven't tested that list aswell.

[Tacosnape]

Holy cow, that's a lot of maindecked hatebears. I guess combo is pretty prevalent in your meta? As for the sb, I have always been satisfied with two grips in my board. There is always atleast one match where I board them in. Maybe cut a path and a teeg for two? Obviously, vial also does a ton against counterbalance decks as well.

A ton, actually. If there were less, I'd go up to 3 Teeg main and ship the Canonists to board with the Worldly Tutors.

And I'll probably do something along those lines, actually.

Also, @Erbs: It's worth noting I run 8 Exalted guys. This means Mother of Runes often serves as a wonderful defender while my one huge guy comes in time and time again, and if needed, it can make the one huge guy virtually untouchable. I hated on Mother of Runes my whole Legacy career. Now I've had to eat my words. I'd run 5 if I could.

[Draener]

Clearly Taco, UW Tempo was just so far ahead of the curve with MoR and Weathered wayfarer that we were blinded by its power. In other, less ridiculous, news, you really should run some number of aether vials. The card really is control's worst nightmare, and is actually pretty good against combo. Cranking a vial to two and having a cannonist gives them very little time to find their answers.

[Hanni]

What kind of control are you talking about? The Rock is a similarly midranged aggro deck, and as far as I know, MBC isn't a very common deck (unless it's popular in your local meta).

By control, I'm assuming you mean the more commonly played blue-based ones, from Landstill to Dreadstill to CounterTop, etc. For those matchups? Thrun, the Last Troll. As a control player, I absolutely hate seeing Thrun. The guy is uncounterable and extremely difficult to deal with.

[_erbs_]

What kind of control are you talking about? The Rock is a similarly midranged aggro deck, and as far as I know, MBC isn't a very common deck (unless it's popular in your local meta).

By control, I'm assuming you mean the more commonly played blue-based ones, from Landstill to Dreadstill to CounterTop, etc. For those matchups? Thrun, the Last Troll. As a control player, I absolutely hate seeing Thrun. The guy is uncounterable and extremely difficult to deal with.

Hello,
black decks are very common in out meta. the control decks im talking about are decks that hate creature decks like rock, etc. which runs 12 creatures and packs discards, sweepers and tons of removals.

Our meta are as follow:
• 20% black (mbc, aggro, mid-range, rock, junk, eva green)
• 15% red (goblin & RDW)
• 15% combo (tes, ant, shelldock, ichorid, show and tell, reanimator) maybe only 1-2 high tide only.
• 15% zoo
• 12% merfs
• 9% bant
• 7% affinity
• 5% blue control (landstill, dreadstill, thopter, etc.)
• 2% rouge (elves, stax, sliver, etc.)

[Tao]

The control problem was one my biggest problems with GW. I could beat medicore control players with it, but as soon as I ran into someone who knew what he was doing the matchup felt very bad. Something like Wrath of God, Explosives, Deed in combination with card draw just beats traditional GW.
I tinkered around a bit and found that Vengevine was a good solution. Recursion + Haste beats many control strategies or at least forces them to have something special. Jace TMS, Counterbalance, Wrath, Deed, Explosives all will not be able to handle Vengevines and they usually only have 4 Swords to Plowshares that they have to use on things like Hierarch, Fauna Shaman or Knight of the Reliquary. Fauna Shaman has been awesome in testing. In G1 it is a removal magnet and if they don't do anything about it you can chain Vengevines which grinds out many decks. In G2 it gets even better because it searches Silver bullets (Kataki vs. Affinity/Staxx, Teeg/Canonist vs. Combo).
Another card that helped the Control matchup a lot without being bad in other matchups is Green Sun's Zenith. It is good on turn 1 and improves the topdeck quality of the deck significantly. Playing virtually 8 Knight of the Reliquary is a good thing and the ability to tutor for Pridemage is also important against most control decks.