Grats man! Great job! Clique in response to Standstill would be a pretty funny play. But would you hold back clique to be cast EOT or would you be running it out there during the draw step?
It really depends on the situation. Sometimes, its correct to drop it on your turn, sometimes you hold it until EOT, sometimes you cast it on draw phase or in response to something. I've done all of these and there's no strict rule, because it depends so much on a game state and what you're playing against.
Remember the Mistbind Clique from Extended/Standard, you're not set in stone to cast it during opponent's upkeep.
I probably should also provide some situation where every descision is correct.
1) Casting it on your turn. Your opponent is tapped out and you're quite sure he's holding a bomb/answer and can have the means of protecting it. I've done this against Sneak & Show deck to strip the creature/SNT he's been holding. He could have brainstormed in response if he weren't tapped out.
This also can be done, if you have the spare mana and you need to see the opponent's hand to know what you should you do with your mana further.
2) Casting it on your draw phase. Your opponent is low on cards, and its profitable to check/strip his hand out of business spells before he gets to cast them and you're sure he isn't able to protect it. I've done this against Maverick to get rid of GSZ.
3) Casting it in response to something. Like in response to Standstill. Or in response to Thoughtseize or Ritual chain to strip whatever business they have.
4) Casting it EOT. You don't expect anything relevant from them on this turn and just want to see if the path is clear for whatever you're going to play next turn or plan what you're going to do.
I've done a lot of research on this deck type over the last 2 years i've been competing in legacy, and i played this deck a lot during the time when survival was at its peak. I even packed a 3/3 split of survival and NO because of their synergy. Since then i've moved onto New Horizons and Affinity favoring their resilience and versitility. I miss the days of cheating Prog into play turn 3 and now im starting to realize that there is enourmous potential now that the format is starting to slow down due to the increase in popularity of Standstill and Mental Misstep. I came up with 2 new lists and also have a card that could potentially send this deck over the edge. First the decklists.
NO BANT
//CREATURES//
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Fauna Shaman
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Rhox War Monk
1x Scryb Ranger
3x Tarmogoyf
//ENCHANTMENTS//
1x Sylvan Library
//INSTANTS//
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Mental Misstep
2x Spell Pierce
4x Swords to Plowshares
//LEGENDARY CREATURES//
1x Progenitus
//SORCERIES//
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Natural Order
//BASIC LANDS//
1x Forest
1x Island
//LANDS//
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Savannah
4x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
//LAND CREATURES//
2x Dryad Arbor
~//SIDEBOARD//~
//ARTIFACTS//
3x Pithing Needle
//CREATURES//
1x Cold-Eyed Selkie
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Xantid Swarm
//ENCHANTMENTS//
2x Threads of Disloyalty
//INSTANTS//
2x Krosan Grip
//LEGENDARY CREATURES//
3x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2x Vendilion Clique
As for the Mainboard i play Sylvan Library for the turn before you go off you pay 8 life to net you extra Force fodder and counter protection, at the very worst during long games you can abuse Rhox War Monks life gain by drawing an extra card a turn, i've never had any moments where the life loss was the reason why i lost the match. Also fairly accepted amoung forums and pro's the singletons Fauna Shaman and Scryb Ranger. Aside from that nothing out of the ordinary in the main. The board is heavy against Merfolk... Eff merfolk man, everyone has built that deck because it is pretty much the easiest deck to win with. So i side 3 Llawan, Cephalid Empress, and a lone Cold-Eyed Selkie for long matches. You can also board in the Threads of Disloyalty but i mainly have those in there to steal enemy Goyfs and Pridemages lol and use them to cast Natural Order. I run the singleton Xanthid Swarm in here against decks like Team America and New Horizons so they can't in response ruin your day. Pithing Needle in here for CounterTop.
I also saw someone else suggest a BUG version of Natural Order that included Thoughtseize. I really like this idea despite the popularity of Mental Misstep, I think that running 4 of them in the main and siding maybe 3 Duress to clear the way of problems seems favorable. the only issue i ran into drawing up a list for BUG was it loses Rhox War Monk, Qasali Pridemage, and Knight of the Reliquary if you run it. So your left with running fewer green creatures limiting your toolbox/silver bullet style with Green Sun's Zenith... despite losing those things i discovered a card that i think singlehandedly put this deck over the edge!
SILHANA LEDGEWALKER!!! it has troll shroud and you can Green Sun's Zenith it up the turn before you go off! the only things that beat that are Engineered Explosives and Pernicious Deed but those are easily dealt with by boarding in Pithing Needle as most creatures in your deck are already vulnerable to those cards. Here's the BUG NO list:
//CREATURES//
2x Birds of Paradise
1x Fauna Shaman
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Silhana Ledgewalker
2x Tarmogoyf
//ENCHANTMENTS//
1x Sylvan Library
//INSTANTS//
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Mental Misstep
2x Spell Pierce
//LEGENDARY CREATURES//
1x Progenitus
2x Vendilion Clique
//SORCERIES//
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Thoughtseize
4x Natural Order
//BASIC LANDS//
1x Forest
1x Island
//LANDS//
1x Bayou
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
~//SIDEBOARD//~
//ARTIFACTS//
3x Pithing Needle
//CREATURES//
1x Cold-Eyed Selkie
1x Xantid Swarm
//ENCHANTMENTS//
2x Threads of Disloyalty
//INSTANTS//
2x Krosan Grip
//LEGENDARY CREATURES//
3x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
//SORCERIES//
3x Duress
Welcome to the Source! I would play Slippery Bogle if I needed such effect, as it pitches to FOW!Originally Posted by crystalballer
Other than that, your lists seem to be too combo-centric but only have 4 Brainstorm + 0-2 Clique to shuffle back Progenitus.
Yeah I run the Fauna Shamans in both lists as well. The idea of NO lists is to cheat Prog into play by turn 3 or 4 with force backup. The reason for the Silhana Ledgewalker is to prevent them from spot removing your green sac b4 u try and cast NO. Most lists run the same if not less Prog shuffle outlets than my lists...
I do like Slippery Boggle over Silhana Ledgewalker though due to I costing 1 less and pitchng to force. Idk I always thought one of the bigger problems was keeping green creatures alive before casting NO. Zoo seems to have an inherent ability to disrupt this deck to the point where you can be sitting on a couple NO without a green creature to sac... I think Slippery Boggle should be an extremely useful 1 of in the new NO decks.
have a local tournament here this weekend, testing out NO for providence, wat does everyone think on the RUG vs Bant versions of the deck?
I was actually wondering the same thing. With less then one week away from Providence I am still undecided. I have always liked red for burn due to swords being dead in some matches. Part of me thinks Bant will be better over all but my gut is telling me to stick with RUG. Red does have the better sideboard with reb/pyroblasts for merfolk. Here is the lists I've been testing, pretty standard lists.
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Vendilion Clique
1 Progenitus
4 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Natural Order
4 Lightning Bolt/Swords to Plowshares
2 Fire/Ice//Qasali Pridemage
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills/Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island/Tundra
1 Taiga/Savannah
1 Scalding Tarn/Mountain//Flooded Strand/Plains
I am debating on the 9th fetch or the 3rd basic. Having the basic in there just seems bad since its your off color and you really want the double blue for clique and double green for NO. My only concern is getting my red source wasted against Merfolk when I really need the red source for my blasts.
The sideboard is up in the air. I know I want to play some graveyard hate. What do you guys think is the best graveyard hate to run. Im thinking either Tormod's Crypt or Surgical Extraction.
Let me know what you guys think.
Last edited by Jigga_Tech; 05-21-2011 at 10:58 AM.
Looks totally like my list, but where the hell's Dryad Arbor? And you need 18 lands minimum (and Arbor doesn't count)
@Tinefol: I had been testing the RUG version that Reid Duke and Dave Nolan played at SCG 5K but updated it with Mental Missteps. Then I saw your list from BoM and your deck tech and thats why I am now torn between RUG and Bant versions of this deck. I wasn't trying to take any credit for the deck, sorry if it seemed that way. Im just trying to get everybodys input on which they think is better RUG or Bant for GP Providence next week.
I also updated my list, it does have 1 forest 1 island 1 dryad arbor (19 lands total). I was distracted by a 4 year old when I posted originaly. What is your take on the 9th fetch vs the 3rd color basic land Tinefol?
@ everybody: So what is everybody's opinion on RUG vs Bant for this deck?
I'd rather have a basic land. It comes handy and you really have a need for either of the 3 at times.
While blasts are good, I think STP is that >>> Bolt in the maindeck. It really depends on a meta, but I think you're better off with white at the GP.
Gotta love in response to your opponent attacking with Dark Confidant, you fetch for Dryad Arbor, block and kill their Dark Confidant! LOLZ!!!!
...and i prefer either Bant or BUG for NO decks, with BUG you have access to disruption and Lim Dul's Vault! Bant is better than RUG, imo, because you can board out the STP's if they're dead against decks like U/W Landstill or Enchantress for things like Krosan Grips, Qasali Pridemages, and Vendilion Cliques. Personally i like to see what their hands look like and make them discard cards before attempting to go off turn 3 so i run BUG. I run 4 Thoughtseize main in place of STP and run 2 Vendilion Clique main instead of Qasali Pridemage and Rhox War Monk for added disruption. Nobody likes having a Hymn to Tourach hit when you have 3 cards in hand on turn 2 or 3 when you're trying to play Natural Order the next turn... Idk these are my preferences for protection.
my local meta has become overrun with Stoneforge control decks (uwr and w/b), Team America and Merfolk as of late with the influx of Mental Misstep and all of them are uphill battles for both RUG and Bant versions of this deck (even with Jitte main as Tinefol had).
The RUG version in my opinion is a bit less stable as only having the lands to get red mana has hurt me more times (ie getting wastelanded out of red, but having hierarchs still) than the not having dead stp/pte would have.
Bolts while nice against Bobs and some fish, don't kill Goyfs or Tombstalkers or equipped hawks/mystics/batterskulled germs where path and swords shine there. NO ONE is using pro-w swords in those mystic decks.
as much as i'd like to be playing NO Bant this weekend at GP Prov, unless the Thurs night tournament and the grinders on Friday show me some new angle, I'm tempted to run with a u/w/r controlling blade deck thats been testing well.
i will say that I think Todd Anderson was on the right path maindecking Terastodon at this past weekends SCG tournie where he went undefeated until the top 8. I find myself bringing that in every other game.
I've had Woodfall Primus' in my s/b the last few tournaments against the jacestill deed decks as all their removal is one for one for it and it just kills more of their permanants when they try to knock it down (and they aren't running any exile effects). Getting it Jaced sucks, but you are so far ahead at that point that you should be winning.
with all these practically mono-u decks making the rounds, you need to have a Thrun somewhere in your 75 or else your creatures are going to get shackled all day long.
Right now, with folk all over I would play UGr. Generally I like bant better because it has the better mid range game with plows and pridemage. If you see team America and not that much folk, bant is miles better because nobles are ideal. If I were running UGr, I would probably swap 1 noble for a birds to GSZ for. I've found llawan to be too narrow in the board but we are forced to play it because we have a bad mu against folk. Ugr versions can play rebs and grim which are really good against non-folk decks as well. For now, I'd play rug, but when the meta changes, bant is better in a field of random.
Could someone in depth please explain the merits of the RUG lists for me? Beyond Grim Lavamancer and maybe Ancient Grudge and to some extent REBs, I don't really see any benefit in running red over white. Obvisously the RUG versions are the ones seeing top tourney results at the moment, so I really feel like I am missing something here.
RUG destroys merfolk. Especially after board. Preboard, rug has 6 removal spells (4 bolts, 2 chains) while after board it can bring in Rebs and grim lavancers. Resolve lavamancer against folk= gg. In bant, you have to play llawan. Resolving llawan against daze and wastelands is going to be a challenge.
Basically rug is better against folk (which is the most popular deck in legacy) but worst in almost every other non-tribal matchup. Seeing as folk is 20% of the field most of the time, playing rug is not a bad idea. I still prefer bant though.
I've played some RUG recently and I can confirm. Not only that, but Blasts are generally good in a metagame of blue control and blue combo (the new brew of Show and Tell decks). Bant generally has a weak match up against heavy control (like UBG Landeed) and fighting that SNT combo is tricky and requires a lot of slots. For other match ups I'd prefer Bant, since QPM is that good.
I'll try a RUG version, then. My meta should be filled with Merfolks, S&T, Grindstone-combo and all number of Stoneforge decks the coming weeks, and I like the thought of Ancient Grudges in the board (and having a main strategy that can race Batterskull without having to resort to stupid Manriki-Gusari subgames).
I think my main deck should look something like this:
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Progenitus
3 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Natural Order
2 Ponder
INSTANTS (19)
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Daze
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Scalding Tarn
I like the thought of Chain Lightning, but I really can't find room for them. I guess you could cut the maindeck Mancer and a Misstep, but that actually does not seem better to me (in theorycrafting). I would not want to cut Ponder from a 4 NO-list either.
So I played the RUG list above at a small tournament yesterday, finishing in second place with a 3-1 result. I played against Elves (loss) and then BUG Control, BW Discard and Painter Grindstone. At first I was a bit unused to the more combo centric approach and played pretty suboptimally, but when I changed my strategy it ran a lot smoother.
The main thing I wanted to try though was the red, and it was amazing. I saw one creature that I could not have handled with Lightning Bolts that I could have handled with Swords to Plowshares, but at that point I just bolted my opponent to death instead. Grim Lavamancer was great, and the Ancient Grudges in the board was just amazing.
Actually, I think MD Grim Lavamancers is probably better than running MD Lightning Bolts, Natural Order has strategic superiority over Knight of the Reliquary and Jace, The Mind Sculptur so what really want is a "sweeper" and not spot removal.
/w without either Knight of the Reliquary or Stoneforge Mystic is probably a mistake.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote