[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

[HaShugz7]

Hey Guys...

Just got done in ATL...I finished 6-3 and just missed Day 2

Here is the list that I ran.


4 Island
4 Factory
4 Tarn
3 Waste
3 Volcanic
2 Strand

4 Delver
4 Nought
3 Lavamancer

4 Force
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
3 Spell Pierce
2 Fire/Ice
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Trickbind

Sideboard:

3 Pyroblast
3 Dismember
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds

Here were my matchups

2-0 Death and Taxes
1-2 UR Delver - Mull to 5 gm 3
2-0 Mono White Vial
2-0 Sneak and Show
2-1 UR Delver
1-2 UW Stoneforge with Giest - Lost to Jitte on Factory gm 3
2-0 RUG
2-0 Merfolk
1-2 Reanimator - Lost to Blazing Archon

I thought the deck was great but in the future I would make a few changes

1. Made a bad call playing Pierce over Snare in the main
2. Standstill is the nuts, I don't think I lost a gm where I resolved it in the first 4 turns.
3. I'm never gonna play less than 4 Nought...guy just steals wins outa nowhere.

Here's the list I'll be working on over the next few months.


4 Island
4 Factory
4 Tarn
3 Waste
3 Volcanic
2 Strand

4 Delver
4 Nought
3 Lavamancer
2 Snapcaster

4 Force
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Trickbind

Sideboard:

3 Pyroblast
3 Dismember
3 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Gilded Drake

[Tenbin]

Heya, just came out of a local tournament finishing 4-0 (8-2-0) with this deck.

My list is:


4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare

4 Stifle
1 Trickbind

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Standstill

3 Lightning Bolt

SB:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyroblast
3 Dismember
2 Fire//Ice
2 Spell Pierce


Round 1 was against a newcomer and I felt pretty dirty playing this deck, his deck was casual, mostly invasion block (all in chinese though) and I scored an easy 2-0

Round 2 Was against Nic Fit and game 1 I won with a turn two Dreadnought with double force for edicts/deed. Game 2 I kept a hand with a turn 2 dreadnought and got therapied for both the stifle and 2 noughts, lost that one. Game 3 I came in again with a dreadnought that proved to be too heavy beats for him. 2-1 and 2-0 in matches

Round 3 was against reanimator. Round 1 we both durdled a bit, him not getting his pieces together, me bolting him twice. I manage to land a dreadnought with him on 12 life, he tries to force and I force back. On his turn he manages to scramble his resources and entombs a Blazing Archon and subsequently goes down to two when reanimating (he fetched on his turn). I'm starting to feel like I'm in the deep end of the pool since I'd already used 2 of my bolts but I manage to rip a Lavamancer off the top and he concedes the game.

Game 2 I mull a shitty hand and he keeps his hand. I played like a true noob this game and forced his turn 1 Thoughtsieze, pitching a delver and prompting a force from his end, causing him to take the Standstill from my hand of 2 Misty Rainforest, Wasteland and Standstill... However, I rip a delver from the top, flip him on my next turn and all in all manage to keep the big scary things away, luck is also a factor I guess. 2-0 and 3-0 in matches

Round 4 I faced Dredge: winning the die roll I decide to go first, opening with an island and a round 2 dreadnought. He tries to go off but fails due to shitty dredges. Game 2 he finds an Ancient Grudge for my nought and I get beat up by flying jellyfish.

Game 3 was a close one, he had me on the ropes with an 8/8 Grave-Troll and 6 Zombie Tokens, I Ice his land and draw a Tormod's crypt (he had 1 Ichorid, 3 Bridges and 2 Ancient Grudges) and on my next turn I remove his graveyard, play double dreadnought and then won the race.

All in all I'm happy with the deck, it was a blast to play and really felt like it had good game against the decks I faced, especially considering this was the first time I played it. I don't really like the Spell Snares though, I barely faced a single 2 CC spell all night, would've prefered them to be Spell Pierces and I often sideboarded that way as well.

[Rood]

Basically Reanimator and Ichorid are two of Dreadstill's matchups I'm least excited to see...so props on handling both very well. I see you run 5 GY hate in the sb it's almost come down to this for me too. I think that GY-based strategies are starting to become a polarizing theme in legacy sadly with Griselbrand running rampant.

Here's my stand on Snare: The matchups you faced Snare is going to be absolutely garbage. But against alot of decks it's still very powerful. I think it's still worth running even though it didn't help you maybe against those specific matchups it will come through for you in others you did not see.

[Atog]

Tenbin:

Did that basic mountain ever screw your mana up? And how was 4th nought & 5 stifle efects? Were those enought or did you wish you had run 2nd trickbind?

HaShugz7:

How has your new list working? Has snapcasters been good? Stifling opponents fetch, and using that later by snapcaster to stone rain them again or use that for nought seems good, but little mana intensive. Have md lightning bolts been good for you?

[HaShugz7]

HaShugz7:

How has your new list working? Has snapcasters been good? Stifling opponents fetch, and using that later by snapcaster to stone rain them again or use that for nought seems good, but little mana intensive. Have md lightning bolts been good for you?

I havent had much time to test yet but I have used the 3 bolt main plenty and I've liked it a lot. I want 2 more CA cards so I figured with bolt and all the other cards that snap would naturally fit in...I will be trying it in a few weeks and let u know.

[Piceli89]

So, I decided to smash my head around this deck again for the 100th time and I have a couple of things to say. For reference, this is what I came up with these days:

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Vendilion Clique (I need a decent 12th critter against combo)

4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze

4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3 Gitaxian Probe

3 Lightning Bolt

3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Mountain
3 Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
(playing only with 2 Volcs maindeck to me is impossible, given Lavamancer needs basic mountain.)


I like how the deck is structured. Grim Lavamancer and Delvers are good enablers to Standstill, which leads to getting ahead if seen early enough. There is only one thing I can't seem to swallow (or understand enough):

How much does Dreadnought suck?
(keep reading, reasons below)

I mean, I read here people going "uh, so powerful, unexpected wins..".
That card doesn't nothing, on its own. And by nothing, I mean NOTHING. It stucks in your hand waiting for a Stifle to come, or a Brainstorm. What's worse, it sometimes forces you to play unnaturally saving the Stifle when a target that may be crucial is on the stack, just because "maybe I draw Dreadnought". And when you burn that Stifle, Dreadnought is obviously the card you drew immediately after.
The deck is solid enough, barring those 4 cards (3, in my case) that are absolutely dead:
-A virtual mulligan on 6 if you open with it (or them, I can't even imagine).
-A virtual drawstep skipped.
-Doesn't pitch to Force.
-Dead against combo, where you'd save Stifle for something else or you don't want to burn 2 cards.
-Feeds enemy's goyf with the only type of card-artifact- that tempo decks don't run, if discarded or countered or binned.
[By the way: this deck runs 12 critters, among which 8 are weak to dead against Storm combo and Sneak-Show. I feel at least 2 Cliques between main and side are a necessity.]

The only valid argument I see for running Dreadnought is that it gives UR the possibility to win a matchup that would be otherwise unwinnable, which is Threshold, because of Mongoose and Goyf being unmanageable by the small x/1 critters- given you see it in time. In every other matchup, is a risky 2x1 that I'm not so eager to run if I sit across a deck that plays Jace, Deed, Plows, EE, Snapcasters, Spell Pierces, Counterspells, Terminus, combo-kills. Notice I named half of the current decks right now.

On a deeper, less nerdrage-y analysis: the Dreadnought plan only works if you manage to make the rest of the deck go around. I.e., getting card advantage with Standstill. Otherwise, is a 2x1 which happens to get you in trouble if it goes bad. Furthermore, there are times when you are trading 1 for 1s with your opponent (aggro and control), and it happens you draw Dreadnought. That's why I'm so skeptical about it, and I seriously question myself whether would I be ready to run that risk during a tournament. It feels to me like running Canadian Threshold with a less-shaky manabase, a form of gaining cards lost to Force of Will, but some other poor slots. Which translates into total dependancy of those cards by the CA engine. Which- unfortunately- happens to be extremely situational, and oftentime lackluster on the draw (take Maverick).
Midrange Stiflenought lists used to lower the risk of having a Dreadnought stopped by either running 1 or accomodating Jace (Dark Confidant was also a choice), which is a costy but safe way to ensure both more cards, and the right cards. Given those won't work that well because the format has gotten faster and Daze+Delver is very good, it all becomes a sort of fragile decks with clunky parts on their own that happen to win you the game only if the rest of the other cards ensure you to get on.
This is my impression from this deck; I may be wrong or this concept ma be flawed because of poor play (it could be), but I doubt so. I can recognize losses from my own play mistakes and those that occur when I'm in a tight spot, on the verge of gaining the edge, and I draw a 12/12 "look, I'm a dead card". I was testing against a competent pilot and I drew three of them in a row. Ok, bad luck doesn't make a rule, but in general this liability makes things just too shaky and unreliable. I am not doubting Roodmistah's results, nor the others. I just ask how much a deck that runs 4 blanks could end up losing to itself and its bad draws on a lengthy scale of matches. Would you feel comfortable picking this over Canadian Threshold or Esperblade and have these inconsistences showing up potentially every round?

Impressions? Feel free to disagree or to contest my argument.


A card, instead, that never ceases to amaze me is Gitaxian Probe. That one seriously wins games, and it's necessary in a combo-esque deck like this. I can't see it being cut before the 4th daze, the trickbind, and the ponders.

EDIT: please note that I'm trying to figure things out from a competitive perspective. Which means I'm doubting Dreadnought's power against players that are really good at the game and against which is always a tight game of attrition where even a whiffed moment means losing the grip. I could get a positive feeling because I carry on smashing face with it against the Cockatrice scrubs I meet almost always when I end the game with 7 cards in hand because I chained 3 Standstills and even a Calcite Snapper would have won there, but that would be deceiving. I hope I don't sound too borious and that you understand what I'm trying to explain.

[sdematt]

Your concerns are exactly how I feel many times. EXACTLY.

A few things I disagree with, however:

1) Gitaxian Probe not being an instant sucks ass. It really does.

2) The UR version lacks some of the awesomeness I loved in the UB version.

3) I love Standstill, but sometimes, if they already have Delver online, it can be super awkward.

4) This deck needs Torpor Orbs.

The reason I loved the Russian version of this deck was being able to Stifle everyone, and leave Torpor Orb online until I draw a Dreadnought. Dreadnought is this deck's biggest strength and liability. How many times I've been Spell Pierced, Dazed, Forced, etc. out of the game. Sometimes, they just have more counters.

-Matt

[Hopo]

Dreadnought gives you potential to dig yourself out of almost any hole you end up in a tournament. Being a 2-card combo, it of course has the tendency to sometimes suck and there's not much you can do about it. But you can tweak your consistency by adjusting the numbers, as that's what this game is for. The good thing is that it is essentially blue, like Delver. That gives you two effective blue win conditions making you almost a mono blue deck.

The lack of Stifle is a problem, but it works both ways: you have something productive to do with your Stifles after the first turns as well. To go around the problem of nought being a dead draw, I suggest to start adding Trickbinds. The format is swarming with Stifle targets and for example miracle control is a real deck now. Trickbind could be your single best card against them.

The card advantage problem was my reason to out Standstill back in. It is correct that you won't win a tournament by 2-for-1'ing yourself 9 rounds in a row without card draw.

My incentive to play dreadnoughts now is Delver of Secrets. It is just what dreadnoughts were lacking: an on-color aggressive threat that needs to be removed soon. Just like nought. Now you are not all-in anymore. You don't even care about Krosan Grips so much anymore.

[Atog]

Have anyone played recently with http://deckbox.org/mtg/Scalding%20TarnNot of This World?? Or is it just unnecessary? That being free to cast is huge advantage but have you felt that you needed that? It just feels that Forcing opponents StoP isn't what you want to do. There's that you can let it resolve, but if you can protect your nought two turns you just win if they don't have another StoP. I know sideboard is choked right now, but i was thinking if you put lightning bolts in main, and NoTW in that slot you could fit them in. Opinions?

[dsck]

Have anyone played recently with http://deckbox.org/mtg/Scalding%20TarnNot of This World?? Or is it just unnecessary? That being free to cast is huge advantage but have you felt that you needed that? It just feels that Forcing opponents StoP isn't what you want to do. There's that you can let it resolve, but if you can protect your nought two turns you just win if they don't have another StoP. I know sideboard is choked right now, but i was thinking if you put lightning bolts in main, and NoTW in that slot you could fit them in. Opinions?

I used to play some of those (2 years ago?) but it being VERY situational is negative enough not to run it.

[Hopo]

Not of this world is even more situational than dreadnought itself. You need nought, Stifle and NOTW. You cannot protect your delvers or factories with it. I played it also around 2 years ago in a dreadstill list with countertop and cunning wish and remember never wishing for it. It's a card that looks a lot better than it actually is. The thing is that Force of Will counters anything, including Terminus.

Vision Charm is a lot better card if you absolutely want more protection. It counters a removal spell (even Qasali Pridemage's activation) and enables dreadnought. I would still play Trickbind over Charm all day in current metagame.

[Atog]

Not of this world is even more situational than dreadnought itself. You need nought, Stifle and NOTW. You cannot protect your delvers or factories with it. I played it also around 2 years ago in a dreadstill list with countertop and cunning wish and remember never wishing for it. It's a card that looks a lot better than it actually is. The thing is that Force of Will counters anything, including Terminus.

Vision Charm is a lot better card if you absolutely want more protection. It counters a removal spell (even Qasali Pridemage's activation) and enables dreadnought. I would still play Trickbind over Charm all day in current metagame.

That might be true yes. I just play in removal heavy metagame where i thought that could shine. Before anybody says "you should then play different deck" i disagree.

[sdematt]

If you're in a removal heavy meta Atog, try 1-2 Kira in the board.

Also, Vision Charm is super sweet High Tide hate.

"Time Spiral, floating 5 blue mana"

"Vision Charm, Islands are Assembly Workers/Deserts/whatever"

"5 blue mana floating to finish combo'ing...not going to happen"

-Matt

[HaShugz7]

Is anyone else worried about the soon to be rise of Merfolk with the extra Lord of Atlantis? I think that it's going to destroy 3 of the top decks now
(reanimator, RUG, UWx control).

Because of the rise of Merfolk I'm wondering which color is going to be the best moving forward.

UR - Gives us access to Bolt and Lavamancer but if they get double lord it's really bad. I've also thought about Spinal Villain for that matchup.
UB - gives us access to GFTT and Inquisition and Thoughtseize as well as massacre for the maverick and esper matches.
UW - Gives us access to swords and path as well as stoneforge, in testing I've noticed that a Batterskull is almost as good gm 1 at stealing wins as much as dreadnought is. I would also say peacekeeper would be good but I'm sure Merfolk will be packing dismember for that and for llawan.

Also, I'm really liking Torpor Orb right now

[Atog]

Is anyone else worried about the soon to be rise of Merfolk with the extra Lord of Atlantis? I think that it's going to destroy 3 of the top decks now
(reanimator, RUG, UWx control).

Because of the rise of Merfolk I'm wondering which color is going to be the best moving forward.

UR - Gives us access to Bolt and Lavamancer but if they get double lord it's really bad. I've also thought about Spinal Villain for that matchup.
UB - gives us access to GFTT and Inquisition and Thoughtseize as well as massacre for the maverick and esper matches.
UW - Gives us access to swords and path as well as stoneforge, in testing I've noticed that a Batterskull is almost as good gm 1 at stealing wins as much as dreadnought is. I would also say peacekeeper would be good but I'm sure Merfolk will be packing dismember for that and for llawan.

Also, I'm really liking Torpor Orb right now

I really don't agree that merfolk is going to destroy rug or reanimator. RUG still has bolts and sideboard red blasts to destroy Lords, and reanimator gets online blazing archon ja merfolks is just death to that g1.

Also, double lord does nothing vs. Bolt. Also if they get double lord online you bolt one, and lavamancer other ideally.

Have you tested Torpor Orb now? In what's place you run it?

[HaShugz7]

I really don't agree that merfolk is going to destroy rug or reanimator. RUG still has bolts and sideboard red blasts to destroy Lords, and reanimator gets online blazing archon ja merfolks is just death to that g1.

Also, double lord does nothing vs. Bolt. Also if they get double lord online you bolt one, and lavamancer other ideally.

Have you tested Torpor Orb now? In what's place you run it?

I was meaning if they get double lord vs a Lavamancer

I've been testing 2 Orb in place of 2 Trick...both have their pros and cons but I like how orb stops a lot of popular creatures right now.

I still love Trickbind and it's overall versatility is prob best

[Piceli89]

Long post to come.

Your concerns are exactly how I feel many times. EXACTLY.

A few things I disagree with, however:

1) Gitaxian Probe not being an instant sucks ass. It really does.

2) The UR version lacks some of the awesomeness I loved in the UB version.

3) I love Standstill, but sometimes, if they already have Delver online, it can be super awkward.

4) This deck needs Torpor Orbs.

The reason I loved the Russian version of this deck was being able to Stifle everyone, and leave Torpor Orb online until I draw a Dreadnought. Dreadnought is this deck's biggest strength and liability. How many times I've been Spell Pierced, Dazed, Forced, etc. out of the game. Sometimes, they just have more counters.

-Matt

1) I wouldn't define free hand information that saves tempo and allows you to plan the entire course of your future plays "sucking ass", especially for a deck that aims half of the time to mana-screw the opponent before estabilishing its race. Sometimes it's pretty hilarious to attempt at Stiflewasting an opponent that has kept a 5 lander.
If Probe was an instant it would be broken and as played as Brainstorm, perhaps even by non-blue decks too, since it comboes with Surgical Extraction and the likes. I'd also like to remind how crucial hand information is when you face across an unknown opponent and not at your local store, and you don't have the remotest clue about what are you facing. Not to mention to understand what the other is holding and which line of play he's carrying on *in every stage of the game*, which is very valuable against skilled players. And, as you yourself mentioned, knowing when Dreadnoughting would end up make you losing and shuffling it away with Brainstorm is something I wouldn't dismiss at all.
Perhaps Peek is the card you're looking for, even if I'm confident enough you can understand the differences by yourself. After all, this format is dominated by zero-cc spells.
2) "Awesomeness" is a vague term, and I don't know what means for you. I want to play decks that are strong and consistent enough to make me win as much as possible, I don't care for deck with a sheer coolness factor, otherwise I'd be playing Pitch World every tournament.
While we're at it, I think red better fits the aggressive philosophy of a tempoed Stiflenought version, while having Pyroblast which is the best sideboard card in this metagame. Black, otoh, offers the tools to skullfuck that silly concoction of dorks that is Maverick, both in Perish and Massacre, as well as an important source of protection in the form of Inquisition of Kozilek. But I guess this is something you already knew very well.

3) Talking about avoiding playing glass cannons, I won't ever understand how one may hope that he will be able to shoot down a power 1 drops without Bolts maindeck for an entire tournament. Mother in herself may not be a problem, but Mother protecting Thalia would. Same for Delver; same on the play for bolting a Hierarch and then putting Standstill instead of losing a turn. Lavamancer is a removal that folds to removal, not completely reliable.

4) Torpor Orb shuts down Snapcaster recycling Plow and Clique as well as Mystic, but doesn't synergize with Delver, doesn't pitch to Force,sicks it to every counter of the format and post-board against Threshold may wind up giving you (further) blowouts with Dreadnought on stack if Ancient Grudge is around. Trickbind is better.

Dreadnought gives you potential to dig yourself out of almost any hole you end up in a tournament. Being a 2-card combo, it of course has the tendency to sometimes suck and there's not much you can do about it. But you can tweak your consistency by adjusting the numbers, as that's what this game is for. The good thing is that it is essentially blue, like Delver. That gives you two effective blue win conditions making you almost a mono blue deck.

The lack of Stifle is a problem, but it works both ways: you have something productive to do with your Stifles after the first turns as well. To go around the problem of nought being a dead draw, I suggest to start adding Trickbinds. The format is swarming with Stifle targets and for example miracle control is a real deck now. Trickbind could be your single best card against them.

The card advantage problem was my reason to out Standstill back in. It is correct that you won't win a tournament by 2-for-1'ing yourself 9 rounds in a row without card draw.

My incentive to play dreadnoughts now is Delver of Secrets. It is just what dreadnoughts were lacking: an on-color aggressive threat that needs to be removed soon. Just like nought. Now you are not all-in anymore. You don't even care about Krosan Grips so much anymore.

Look, I respect your experience with Dreadnought decks because I've read that you got byes for Ghent with this list and you're playing them since 2 years, but I think you pretty much circumvented my objections with short, general statements.

Dreadnought gives you potential to dig yourself out of almost any hole you end up in a tournament.

To be honest, I'm counting the times I've lost because of a dead Dreadnought and times I've won because of it, and I'm on something like 85 to 15. It's also valuable to notice that it gets there with a total degree of success just against Threshold and Burn; in the other matchups I almost always tend to side it out, because I don't want to run the risk of drawing into it in a crucial state of the game and cleaning my ass with a card that does NOTHING. Or getting 2x1ed by a topdeck. I don't always have the perfect 6 cards to make it through, opponents happen to disrupt me as well. Neither I want to warp the way I play my Stifles, because losing one second with such a deck means you're getting behind very quickly. It also happens that it sometimes does not pop up in time in those few matchups where it would shine, while I'm being ravaged by Mongese and Goyfs. Dreadnought is a card that require a very dedicated setup and an all-around strategy, at least here. It's like a Show and Tell deck more often than not: two card-combo with a handful of counters as backup. You also have parallel plans in the form of Delver, but let's be honest:

My incentive to play dreadnoughts now is Delver of Secrets. It is just what dreadnoughts were lacking: an on-color aggressive threat that needs to be removed soon. Just like nought. Now you are not all-in anymore. You don't even care about Krosan Grips so much anymore

As much as Delver of Secrets is a busted 1-drop, it is manegeable by the majority of good decks. It's not that it is another big cow that resists the more common removals, as Tombstalker would be; it can churn 4 to 6 points of damage, but eventually will eat it to Forked Bolt, Bolt, Swords to Plowshares. Delver's greatest power stays in the fact that it's busted in the first 3 turns if it flips immediately, but it will eventually die.
Not to mention that it drawn mid-game means having a weak 1/1 that has to wait a full turn to (perhaps) become being relevant on a board that, meanwhile, has been filled with threats that can handle it very well. From Reliquary to Maze of Ith to Jitte, to enemy flipped Delvers. More time means more cantrips, which mens higher chances for your opponent to find a removal. Also, I want you to notice how poorly it works with only 23 to 25 i/s in this deck, compared to Threshold where it's fully optimized.
All this is to say: I recognize Delver adds another good tool to the beatdown section of the deck. I just don't want you to use it as a sort of pretext to justify Dreadnought, because they quite don't overlap in terms of cards that hose them (except Swords and Terminus and Jace), and both are bad in certain parts of the game or situations. It's not like Vendilion Clique or Snapcaster, which, although costy, are all-around good and will always provide *immediate* utility in a form or another. In mid-game, this deck lacks creatures like that: good immediately, as soon as they touch ground. Except Dreadnought, which suffers the opposite problem.
Ah, the fact that both are blue is a bonus as well as a weakness, given Pyroblast is the card that will be first sided against this deck. They also both die to Explosives.

The card advantage problem was my reason to out Standstill back in. It is correct that you won't win a tournament by 2-for-1'ing yourself 9 rounds in a row without card draw.

This is true, but Standstill still remains the most situational CA engine around. And how are you sure you will be able to exploit it if left in certain matchups, like Maverick, where you could find yourself craving for answers from a moment to another, and you draw Standstill? Are you so confident you can leave it such a card, trusting that eventually you'll be able to gain momentum and board?
On the other hand, if you side it out, you may run into your deck becoming that tempo-deck thingie you were talking about previously that tries to either screw or dying. A sort of Canadian Threshold deck. With the exception that you run 3/4 horrible, sucky creatures on a grand total of 11/12.
You see my point? For instance, I'd like to share this:

Midrange Stiflenought UB

This list is able to support Dreadnought, because it runs TEN pieces of *constant* card advantage (Confidant, Snapcasters, Jace) that make up for the full number of 12/12. It also has a better protection in the form of Counterbalance, and doesn't rely exclusively on Nought as a win condition because it can also win by burying the opponent in CA so that Jace can become to ramp. In the way I see it, this sort of configuration is way better suited to adapt such a card, and also works cutting it in the matchups where it sucks. What are you left with if you cut Dreadnought in the matchups where it's risky? A tempo deck with 8 1/1s as beaters? So you're basically forced to let it in almost always. And this implies the problems I wrote about before: if a part happens to not show up or being weak in a certain matchup, everything else is seriously hampered too. It's like a broken lamp held together with tape, if you get the metaphor. You touch a part, and the rest folds or becomes unglued. Threshold sometimes suffers from this, but Mongoose is such a threat that it is able to get it done on its own with the help of a couple of disruptions here and there. Delver is not; Dreadnought is IF you find the Stifle, IF it resolves and IF it sticks, and the answers to it have increased exponentially. It's not 2009 anymore.

If someone wants to collect these "taunts" and talk about the deck with me, please PM me. Or play with me on Cockatrice, nickname is Space Dye Vest.
Show me I'm wrong.

[Hopo]

piceli, I don't mean to oppose you. I didn't even quote you. I just wrote how I feel about dreadnoughts at the moment. Your analysis looks quite spot on to me. I see this as a metagame deck, not something you could play for years at high level. Dreadnoughts are good when Stifle is good.

Dreadnought by definition sometimes lacks. I just see it as a risk vs. reward thing. The inconsistencies come with great power, and it's up to you to decide if that is the position where you want to be. I can only try to mitigate the issues by playing with a higher Stifle/nought ratio (6/4 or even 6/3).

The card advantage issue is always there when you play this deck. I used to approach this by playing not direct draw but creatures that generate card advantage, like Confidant, Lavamancer and Kira. Then lightning bolt took over the format and confidant became somewhat unreliable, while Kira was one to two turns too slow. Standstill works great with powerful 1-drops, as well as can be a dead card in certain situations. Still, delver into standstill is really powerful and as long as it serves me, I just dig this.

[sdematt]

I think you misunderstood. I said Probe not being an instant sucked. I was under the impression and very excited about the card until I was stopped by a friend reminding me it was a sorcery. Maybe that's why I'm not a huge fan is the let down, but I'm just saying.

Yes, awesomeness is vague. I wasn't looking to make a huge compare and contrast essay between the two version for your critical analysis. I was just making a general comment. I can go into detail about what I like and what I miss, however.

You needn't run Bolts to have removal. Black also has removal in the form of Ghastly Demise, Vendetta, Dismember, etc. If I had Black, I'd also Thoughtseize that out of his hand. Lightning Bolt is able to apply pressure as well as serve as removal for most creatures, so that's one of the main things I would miss if I were to go back to the UB version.

How does Torpor Orb not have synergy with Delver? Are you just referring to the fact it's not an instant or sorcery? Fine, that's fair, but you've got many, many other Instants and Sorceries.

Not pitching to Force? In a deck with almost 30 blue cards? Really?

Trickbind is better in that, yes, it does pitch to Force of Will. Yes, it will counter a Jace bounce, or a Fetchland, etc. But, having a constant ability on the board to not only enable you, but disable other cards in your opponents' decks is also very good. It lets you not keep both pieces in hand to avoid disruption, and saves on mana in that critical turn. I think both have their uses, but I've liked Torpor Orb. I'll try Trickbind again, and maybe I'll even run a split of these.

-Matt

[Vandalize]

Torpor Orb is very fine in the main deck. It enables double Dreadnought casting in the same turn, WHILE shutting of ETB triggers from Snapcaster, Stoneforge, Goblins.dec, etc.

Pitching to Force of Will isn't really an argument for a deck that plays 20+ blue spells.

Dreadnought, as a 3~4-of in this deck, you'll very often have two in your hand, and sometimes you don't have Brainstorm to shuffle it away. So why not just play a card that enables you to play them both?

I've been tinkering something for the UB build:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

4 Dark Confidant
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Standstill
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Torpor Orb
1 Ponder
1 Thoughtseize

Sideboard
4 Extirpate
3 Spell Pierce
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Echoing Truth
2 Perish
1 Thoughtseize
1 Relic of Progenitus

I don't think UR and UB lists play the same way, both have their pros and cons. But in the UB shell, you can protect Dreadnought better by using proactive discard + Bob's natural removal magnet. Still, UR has Grim Lavamancer to work under Standstill and a little burn to gain some reach (I don't even need to mention Pyroblasts post-board).

I'd like to fit a basic Swamp somewhere in the maindeck, but cutting basic Islands weakens Daze. What should I cut?

EDIT: I'll probably go for -1 Island, -1 Daze, +1 Swamp, +1 Ponder.