Counterfeit Magic Cards

[Moonraker]

My point was it's awfully hard to talk about how much it "hurts" Wizards of the Coast to be getting copies of something they are not actually selling and in some cases have said they will never sell again. It's like downloading abandonware, which costs the owning companies (if they're even still in business) a grand total of 0¢.

So your saying that its hard for you to see how counterfeiting a product despite it being out of production hurts the industry that produced it. So you don't think that product integrity affects consumer confidence? You don't think that people who get swindled would prefer to abstain from the product altogether? Somehow this doesn't hurt WOTC? You think the producers of the game won't become disillusioned because the profitability of what they produce doesn't provide a substantial return on investment? You sir, are living in the alternate reality... I'm not going to explain how the world works to you anymore kid. You're just going to have to get ripped off a few times before you understand.

[Lord Seth]

So your saying that its hard for you to see how counterfeiting a product despite it being out of production hurts the industry that produced it? So you don't think that product integrity affects consumer confidence? You don't think that people who get swindled would prefer to abstain from the product altogether? Somehow this doesn't hurt WOTC? You think the producers of the game won't become disillusioned because the profitability of what they produce doesn't provide a substantial return on investment? You sir, are living in the alternate reality... I'm not going to explain how the world works to you anymore kid. You're just going to have to get ripped off a few times before you understand.

Too bad you're not going to explain, because I'm still waiting on an explanation as to how what I was saying was wrong. You seem determined to attack arguments I wasn't making.

[bruizar]

So your saying that its hard for you to see how counterfeiting a product despite it being out of production hurts the industry that produced it. So you don't think that product integrity affects consumer confidence? You don't think that people who get swindled would prefer to abstain from the product altogether? Somehow this doesn't hurt WOTC? You think the producers of the game won't become disillusioned because the profitability of what they produce doesn't provide a substantial return on investment? You sir, are living in the alternate reality... I'm not going to explain how the world works to you anymore kid. You're just going to have to get ripped off a few times before you understand.

+1

[ed06288]

This moonraker guy isn't making any sense

[bruizar]

This moonraker guy isn't making any sense

to people with no world/business experience..

Mtg's value is entirely extrinsic. wizards makes money from the arbitrage of a raw material with low intrinsic value (paper) by adding extrinsic value to it (you know, like a Rembrandt thats worth more than the ink and canvas it's painted on). Take away the extrinsic value and wizards goes out of business

[kirkusjones]

to people with no world/business experience..

Mtg's value is entirely extrinsic. wizards makes money from the arbitrage of a raw material with low intrinsic value (paper) by adding extrinsic value to it (you know, like a Rembrandt thats worth more than the ink and canvas it's painted on). Take away the extrinsic value and wizards goes out of business

I would like to point out that the high-end fashion industry seems to get by just fine with a veritable sea of knock-offs floating around, and has been doing so for years. The major difference is that as magic players, Wizards made the mistake of letting the players think they owe us something. This is not to say that this isn't admirable, but it's a lot like LL Bean's no-questions asked return policy, people will take advantage of altruism if they see a way to make a profit, and will find ways to justify it no matter what. As I've stated before, there is definitely a happy middle ground between the reserved-list and Chronicles style reprints, and such a solution would go a long way to combatting the counterfeit community. It would also go a long way to inspire confidence and attract more people into eternal formats.

[bruizar]

I would like to point out that the high-end fashion industry seems to get by just fine with a veritable sea of knock-offs floating around, and has been doing so for years. The major difference is that as magic players, Wizards made the mistake of letting the players think they owe us something. This is not to say that this isn't admirable, but it's a lot like LL Bean's no-questions asked return policy, people will take advantage of altruism if they see a way to make a profit, and will find ways to justify it no matter what. As I've stated before, there is definitely a happy middle ground between the reserved-list and Chronicles style reprints, and such a solution would go a long way to combatting the counterfeit community. It would also go a long way to inspire confidence and attract more people into eternal formats.

It's good that you mention this. The Burberry-check pattern is the most faked pattern in high end fashion and it has most definitely hurt brand equity. There are papers and university cases about this very topic.

[kirkusjones]

I have a really hard time feeling any sympathy for a company (Burberry) who cleared over 500 milion USD in profits last year. Your point is valid though, they are often the victim of counterfeit.

[Moonraker]

I would like to point out that the high-end fashion industry seems to get by just fine with a veritable sea of knock-offs floating around, and has been doing so for years. The major difference is that as magic players, Wizards made the mistake of letting the players think they owe us something. This is not to say that this isn't admirable, but it's a lot like LL Bean's no-questions asked return policy, people will take advantage of altruism if they see a way to make a profit, and will find ways to justify it no matter what. As I've stated before, there is definitely a happy middle ground between the reserved-list and Chronicles style reprints, and such a solution would go a long way to combatting the counterfeit community. It would also go a long way to inspire confidence and attract more people into eternal formats.

You can always get your cards graded as well. If only that system was more cost effective and allowed the cards to still be played.

[kirkusjones]

Getting cards graded does nothing to increase the supply of reserved list cards. What's driving the counterfeit market is people wanting to play eternal formats but not pay the ludicrous cost of entry based on an altruistic and in my opinion, misguided, policy enacted by Wizards.

[Moonraker]

Getting cards graded does nothing to increase the supply of reserved list cards.

This is true, but the issue isn't supply and demand it is counterfeiting. I'll admit that getting cards graded isn't very practical/cost effective for playing purposes, but it obstructs counterfeiting considerably. Regarding your point about the reserved list, there are many cards that are not on the reserved list that are still counterfeited.

[kirkusjones]

There would be no reason to counterfeit without a limited supply and a vastly disproportinate demand. Believe what you want, but that is the heart of the issue.

[dragonwisdom]

Calling a duck a duck is not getting on a high horse. If you put a card in front of them and claiming it is genuine, when you know it is not, you're lying. I realize it is uncomfortable to admit that if you engage in this conduct or if you think that others doing it will serve a greater good, but call a duck a duck. It quacks.

Additionally, of course, your argument does not get off the ground because everyone CAN buy these cards. Unless we're talking about Fraternal Exultation or something, the cards are available for purchase on the secondary market. The barrier is simply that the prices are too high. There are some who would argue that annoyance that a luxury item is priced too high is insufficient justification for lying.

EDIT: The academics here may enjoy discussing the difference between Virtue Ethics and Utilitarianism as it relates to this issue. For my part, I've always thought both schools of thought were valid, but concerned with different questions. Virtue Ethics asks if something is morally good or bad, based largely on how it exhibits an accepted virtue, whereas utilitarianism asks whether a course of conduct is justified. Something can be good and unjustified (giving food to someone who is about to die regardless) as well as bad and justified (withholding food from that person because someone else could make better use of it).

MaximumC - Your logic is sound, well thought out and correct.

[MaximumC]

I am unsure how this relates at all to what I said that you quoted. I pointed out that the ordinary argument as to why piracy and copying is wrong or whatever is because the original creator put work into it, so you should be buying it and supporting them. So, for example, if you just download a copy of Adobe Photoshop instead of buying it, you aren't giving Adobe support for the work they put into the product.

The problem is that in this case, you are not supporting the creator of the work by buying Reserved List cards. Wizards of the Coast gets no money from that. For an in-print card one can claim they at least make the money "indirectly" by booster pack sales (that people then open up and sell as singles) but again, not for cards that aren't in print.

I don't see how this duck and quacking has anything to do with what I said. My point was it's awfully hard to talk about how much it "hurts" Wizards of the Coast to be getting copies of something they are not actually selling and in some cases have said they will never sell again. It's like downloading abandonware, which costs the owning companies (if they're even still in business) a grand total of 0¢.

The connection is in your use of the term "wrong or whatever." You are suggesting that counterfeiting should not be considered "wrong" because, you argue, it is different from pirating Adobe Photoshop. Your definition "wrong" is myopic. Lying is also wrong, and presenting a counterfeit as if it were real in a tournament, trade, or sale involves lying to someone.

I recognize you are using the old "But No One Gets Hurt" argument. Specifically, you are saying that since buying a Reserve List card will never involve giving cash to WotC in exchange for a card, you are saying Wizards will not be injured by counterfeits. Others have pointed out why this might not be correct, and your analogy to abandonware has problems as well, but I wasn't critiquing that. I was just pointing out that what you are doing is utilitarianism. That is, you're judging something as "right" or "wrong" on the basis of the resulting effect. In general, that's a fine thing to do, but it is not really asking if something is good or bad -- just if it can be justified.

Other examples:

1. Stealing food from the supermarket that was about to be put into the dumpster. (Stealing = Wrong, Utility = Justified)
2. Telling the truth to criminals as an undercover cop (Truth = Right, Utility = Unjustified)
3. Working hard to make a present for someone you care about, knowing they are doing the same for you (Generosity = Right, Utility = Justified)
4. Passing counterfeits to a 11 year old child in exchange for his valuable cards (Lying = Wrong, Utility = Unjustified)

And so on.

MaximumC - Your logic is sound, well thought out and correct.

Well hey, thanks.

[Spam]

The connection is in your use of the term "wrong or whatever." You are suggesting that counterfeiting should not be considered "wrong" because, you argue, it is different from pirating Adobe Photoshop. Your definition "wrong" is myopic. Lying is also wrong, and presenting a counterfeit as if it were real in a tournament, trade, or sale involves lying to someone.

I recognize you are using the old "But No One Gets Hurt" argument. Specifically, you are saying that since buying a Reserve List card will never involve giving cash to WotC in exchange for a card, you are saying Wizards will not be injured by counterfeits. Others have pointed out why this might not be correct, and your analogy to abandonware has problems as well, but I wasn't critiquing that. I was just pointing out that what you are doing is utilitarianism. That is, you're judging something as "right" or "wrong" on the basis of the resulting effect. In general, that's a fine thing to do, but it is not really asking if something is good or bad -- just if it can be justified.

Other examples:

1. Stealing food from the supermarket that was about to be put into the dumpster. (Stealing = Wrong, Utility = Justified)
2. Telling the truth to criminals as an undercover cop (Truth = Right, Utility = Unjustified)
3. Working hard to make a present for someone you care about, knowing they are doing the same for you (Generosity = Right, Utility = Justified)
4. Passing counterfeits to a 11 year old child in exchange for his valuable cards (Lying = Wrong, Utility = Unjustified)

And so on.



Well hey, thanks.

Man, on a pure language and logical level, this piece of text is soo well crafted. I could read it again and again.

[non-inflammable]

I've probably posted this somewhere on the source before, but I'll post it again...

For years, I have nurtured a sanctioned Legacy event at my LGS. I offer to ANYONE that walks through the door a tier 1 Legacy deck of their choice.
I will even take requests if people want to play jank; I built Spanish Inquisition for someone and within a few weeks, the guy just stopped coming to Legacy.
I built BUG control for a guy after he asked me to make it; he never even came back to play it... Now, BUG control is the deck I loan out mostly.

One night a guy from out of state walks in, I loan him a deck. He won the event. I never even knew his name and he never came back to the shop.

If there is anyone in the shop when we are getting ready to start Legacy, I will go to every table and introduce myself and explain I will loan or make ANY deck if they want to play.
I offer some suggestions about how easy linear decks are to play and I again offer to make or loan ANY deck for anyone that wants to play.
No matter what I say or who I talk to, I very rarely get someone to take me up on the offer to make them a Legacy deck.

If someone does take me up on the offer to make a deck, they usually only play once or twice and DON'T come back.
You would think having access (for free) to EVERY card in Legacy would increase attendance. It does not!
My efforts to make Legacy decks for anyone has NOT increased the regular Legacy player base by even one person.


Last month, my LGS started to allow 10 card proxy for Legacy events in hopes of increasing attendance.
Not one single new player has come into the shop for Legacy. It's the same 8 or so guys that have been coming for years.

However, something did happen when we allowed proxies, something I did not expect:
Some of the SAME guys that come every week to play Legacy DID use the 10 card proxy allowance to try a new deck.
NOT a single new player came in for Legacy but now the regulars get to try a new deck by using proxies. CURIOUS?

TL/DR: Removing the reserve list will NOT increase the regular Legacy player base in any appreciable way.

[kirkusjones]

Your generosity and hard work for essentially zero reward is admirable. It is unfortunate it has not had an effect at your LGS, but your experience at your LGS is just one tiny part of the community at large. Making such a sweeping generalization based on data from one location in no way reflects the reality of peoples' interest in Legacy as a whole. If every shop, or hell, even 25% of shops had someone as dedicated as you, we would be better off in terms of both attracting new people to the format and keeping them around. Unfortunately, this is not the case. Keep fighting the good fight, though. Someone fleeing Standard or Modern could still surprise you.

[ed06288]

kinda aimed @ non-inflammable; I sold most of my legacy stuff when shops in my area moved to proxy tournaments. I didn't care for my dual lands getting destroyed by print outs of wasteland. Too many kids playing the format too. I don't mind borrowing decks, but I don't see myself borrowing a deck more than 1 or 2 outings, for any format. I don't even play my own decks more than 2 or 3 times in a row anyways. It's also not uncommon for me to not play standard or modern for even 2 or 3 months at a time. But again, I really don't like the proxy tournaments. I feel the whole discussion over counterfeits is moot because the format is "free" anyways. Soooo nowadays I just post in forums like these to complain. i mean, obviously larger events are cool, and are non-proxy, but i kinda like just grinding out small shops on a weekly basis.

[Lord Seth]

The connection is in your use of the term "wrong or whatever." You are suggesting that counterfeiting should not be considered "wrong" because, you argue, it is different from pirating Adobe Photoshop. Your definition "wrong" is myopic. Lying is also wrong, and presenting a counterfeit as if it were real in a tournament, trade, or sale involves lying to someone.

You say "lying is also wrong." Okay, why? Based on what? You start with this claim and then never back it up. Certainly, in many cases the morality of an action is simply assumed by most people (i.e. one is not expected to have to support the idea that "the Holocaust was wrong" when they assert it), but that is not the case here. Very, very few people will agree that lying is, in all cases, wrong, which is what you appear to be advocating (and if you aren't advocating that, your message doesn't make much sense).

Your definition of wrong seems far more myopic than what you accuse of being myopic.

I recognize you are using the old "But No One Gets Hurt" argument. Specifically, you are saying that since buying a Reserve List card will never involve giving cash to WotC in exchange for a card, you are saying Wizards will not be injured by counterfeits. Others have pointed out why this might not be correct, and your analogy to abandonware has problems as well, but I wasn't critiquing that.

What people have "pointed out" are things that aren't actually attacking the argument I was making. Someone made an assertion, I made a specific response to that specific assertion, and then you and others started making attacks on arguments I didn't make. Which admit to doing by your own admission, stating "I wasn't critiquing that." And you are still keeping this up, not actually addressing my point and instead constructing some argument I didn't make to tear down... and you're not even doing that great a job tearing down that imaginary argument in this post. Some of your ideas seem downright bizarre:

2. Telling the truth to criminals as an undercover cop (Truth = Right, Utility = Unjustified)

I would expect the vast majority of people would say that truth=wrong in this case. It certainly is on you, the minority, to explain why it is morally wrong in such a situation to tell the truth and allow the criminals to go free. Perhaps this was a case where the criminals were breaking a law that was unjust to begin with, but you fail to specify this, simply decrying "Truth = Right" which would be an extremely fringe position in this case. Certainly, "most people believe this" or even "almost all people believe this" doesn't make a moral position instantly right, but I believe that if you are going to advocate fringe morality positions, you should at least bother to explain why you think people should agree with you.

Man, on a pure language and logical level, this piece of text is soo well crafted. I could read it again and again.

Ignoring the fact it was attacking imaginary arguments, I do hope you understand that the "well crafted" text is (intentionally or not) taking the position that the people who hid Jews and other "undesirables" to stop them from being killed by the Nazis were doing something morally wrong because it involved lying.

[Lord Seth]

Last month, my LGS started to allow 10 card proxy for Legacy events in hopes of increasing attendance.
Not one single new player has come into the shop for Legacy. It's the same 8 or so guys that have been coming for years.

However, something did happen when we allowed proxies, something I did not expect:
Some of the SAME guys that come every week to play Legacy DID use the 10 card proxy allowance to try a new deck.
NOT a single new player came in for Legacy but now the regulars get to try a new deck by using proxies. CURIOUS?

TL/DR: Removing the reserve list will NOT increase the regular Legacy player base in any appreciable way.

kirkusjones pointed out how this is just the case of one store, but what your example seems to ignore is something important: People, psychologically, seem to really want to actually own their decks if they plan to play much with them. People don't like playing decks that are on loan, at least on a regular basis. They might be willing to do it to try the format out or if they just need to borrow a few cards for a big event, but it seems for most people to stick around they need to actually have their own cards. And that's what the high prices are preventing a lot of people from doing.