Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
My thought on Remand was that people will naturally target the Stifle, not the Dreadnought, to get the 2-for-1. If I remand my own Stifle, I will likely have enough mana to re-cast it in the mid-game, all the while drawing an extra card. Arcane Denial does get me more cards, but it doesn't get me back the one card I really want (Stifle.) Remand is much better at countering something an opponent does as well, because if they can't re-cast it due to mana-denial (huh, who would do that?) it is essentially a Time Walk. Maybe too cute, but the theory is sound even if the application might fall flat IRL. Also, weren't you also against Vendilion Clique because it could draw them into mana you were already denying? Arcane Denial does that but instead gives them 2 free draws, all the while not threatening 3 life a turn like Clique.

Regarding Vapor Snag: it may not be as effective at dealing with threats as Lightning Bolt or Swords to Plowshares, but it puts it back into their hand where I can have an opportunity to counter it. The time-walk effect can be very good as well, considering I should be denying them mana. It still does the most important thing as well: get things out of the way for Delver/Snap/Factory to beat face. I really see this as my best option considering I don't have Volcanics, or any other blue dual. You can make an argument for shocklands, especially with a fast clock and I'm already using Dismember, but do I gain enough to outweigh the risk?Another way to build it would be to play Mutavault/Spellstutter Sprite. It's not terribly fast, but it's definitely relevant in a fast format like legacy for countering things.

I still have a ton of open-ended questions:

1) Would Ratchet Bomb be ok maindeck? Solves the Chalice@1-turn-1-game-1 problem.
2) Should I play Misdirection maindeck when I don't have Forces? Doesn't counter things but is excellent against discard.
3) Is Dispel good enough to indlude in the 75? Fights counter wars like a champ, but so does Pierce.
4) Jace the Mind Sculptor? Main/side/no? Seems very good as an alternative win-condition and a 5th card advantage engine to supplement Standstill.
5) Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker sideboard? I want the effect, is Revoker better? Needle can shut off fetches, but that wasn't why I boarded it in usually. It was for Aether Vial, PW's, Pernicious Deed, equipment. Revoker does the same, but also attacks for 2, however doesn't get in under Standstill t1 like Needle. Needle is a liability against Chalice decks, and Chalice decks from my experience have tons of activated abilities.
So with Arcane Denial (since we're talking about mono-blue) Standstill is the most powerful effect that can win non-combo games, and with SCM in your list we're going longer which puts the emphasis on card advantage down the stretch. Denial is a lot closer to functioning like a 5th pseudo-copy of Standstill, and you get the option to do things like cast Standstill -> they counter -> counter own Standstill, still draw 3 (more likely though to cast own Dreadnought, hold priority and target it with Denial). The interactive mode of Denial also needs to be looked at as counter target card advantage engine, next upkeep trigger-trigger, draw your card -> Stifle their draw 2. So it's basically slow-cycling for + get an untap step + then Stifle/SCM-Stifle is now a hard counter. Worst case you're saying "I'll slow-cycle this card, and I'd rather you took 2 blind draws rather than have a card like JTMS." Unlike Clique, you aren't trying to draw them into mana; casting this as an unsupported counter [that would draw them into lands] should generally mean the opponent is casting an intolerable 3+ cmc card, which means the Stifle/Wasteland plan has probably passed.

Remand is able to be fired off liberally, but it only delays problems and it doesn't really have the ability to get you back into a game (not without 5+ lands on the table, which is what you'd need for card advantage via stack baiting). I think Snare probably does a better job of keeping something off the table into drop Standstill if that's the other thing you were going for with Remand.

Vapor Snag is one of those cards where you probably have to combo off of the life loss to get away with it (red cards), certainly when running so many copies of Snag. I don't see a mono-blue deck as being able to mount enough pressure to take advantage of that bounce window, but on the flip side it makes it really hard for opponents to remove your Factories and deny Standstill opportunities. The card probably has a net negative effect on ability to win games compared to effects like Set Adrift/Submerge which return to top of deck; you're the one actually playing it though so you'd have to test out comparative efficacy.

1) I don't see enough reason to maindeck Ratchet Bomb without a synergy-based list using cards like Reality Shift, because Bomb doesn't help win games. I think you'd be hard pressed to demonstrate that win % goes up if that slot isn't Ill. Mask or Torpor Orb. Mask is a much better way to defeat Chalice, because those decks generally don't beat resolved 12/12s.
2) Misdirection is fine, it'll be either amazing or terrible. It becomes more important to play more proactively to bait opponent countermagic so that Misd. functions like FoW. The most severe change in playstyle pattern will occur when facing Reanimate/Animate Dead decks, lines become very unintuitive.
3) Dispel is reasonable...I'd probably rather have Snare if we're talking about maindeck or Divert if we're talking about SB. Given your list is mono-blue you also have to look at cards like Annul, Invasive Surgery, Hydroblast/Flash Flood, or ramp up the mana denial plan with Mind Bend (this would be on top of the usual Flusters and Surgicals). I think Dispel is probably best against a deck trying to bring in Pyroblast, in which case I might want Hydroblast/Flash Flood (and as a bonus you get better win % vs red decks).
4) I'm not a huge fan of JTMS, but the card is fine. I'd be a little concerned as a mono-blue player about artifacts like Needle/Revoker though. If you were UR, I think you absolutely take Chandra-ToD over JTMS any day.
5) I really dislike Pithing Needle; you're already a Factory deck which should be naturally good vs PWs so I'd rather have Teferi's Response if that's what I'm concerned about. It doesn't deal with Vial, but that card also hoses DnT, especially with SCM. Dead draws like Needle will always be high risk/high reward. Revoker is pretty bad, but if you have a Dreadnought coming out it still provides pressure when followed up by Standstill.

----

@Fallen Empire your list has some pretty significant card disadvantage problems between E. Tutor, Dreadnought, and Petal. We play 12/12s so that we don't need to play equipment (otherwise we'd be cutting Dreads for SFM). While white removal is garbage compared to Bolt vs opponent life total, there is this very fringe idea that Dreadnought + StP = 4x Healing Salve and somehow that is ok enough....maybe. You definitely picked up on the most important thing with those colors: you can't win games of legacy by picking up Tundra [Daze].

The UW Dreadnought deck is playable (I went 6-3 at Seattle GP, having played it extensively for the better half of a year), but the key to white cards is capitalizing on no-skill "derp I win b/c you can't anymore." For me deck construction began with Enlightened Tutor, because it finds the biggest cheese-a-win artifacts/enchantments out of the board (RiP/Canonist) and the best one-card wincon in 2x Mentor. The reason you can run Mentor is you no longer have to play Hushwing Gryff because they printed Tocatli Honor Guard, which not only freed up the 3-drop slot, but it also gave us a playable, proactive 2-drop (these don't exist in UW if you're not playing SFM or Thalia; neither of which help Dreadnoughts).

So Mentor, Tocatli [thus Dreadnoughts], E. Tutor main, and SB cheese in a Tundra deck that can't play Daze, and a deck that's automatically not playing Delver (too many lands and artifact/echantments). Without Delver, there's no playable 1-drops (Mother of Runes is awful), so you're playing Factory. Finish the deck from there is the challenge.

My emphasis was complete synergy around a premise that tutoring to top of deck either wins or isn't card disadvantage (this was more important pre-ban with Czech Pile spamming Hymns and being quite poor vs enchantments). My list looked like this:

Lands (20)
Flooded Strand x4
Polluted Delta x3
Island x2
Plains x1
Tundra x2
Karakas x1
Wasteland x4
Factory x3

Creatures (11)
Dreadnought x4
Tocatli Honor Guard x2
JVP x2
Mentor x2
Jeskai Infiltrator x1

Spells (22)
FoW x4
BS x4
Stifle x4
Plow x4
E. Tutor x3
Reality Shift x2
Noxious Revival x1

Other
Standstill x1
Search for Azcanta x1
Aether Vial x1
Illusionary Mask x1
Powder Keg x1
Cursed Scroll x1
Mastery of the Unseen x1


SB
Surgical x1
C. Priest x2
Teferi's Realm x1
Canonist x1
RiP x1
Cursed Totem x1
Torpor Orb x1
Disempower x1
Sacred Ground x1
Divert x2
Misd x2
Isochron Scepter x1 (white is a dumb color, and it needed a card to reflect that) - and yes it was foil FTV.

Aside from boring old Swords to Plowshares, which you have to run since you don't have Daze, everything in this deck works together in highly convoluted ways. The end product is actually pretty low variance if the pilot can assess the implications of all the possible interactions, identify when to abandon Wasteland for a get to 4 mana plan, and generally avoid using Stifle to put Dreadnought into play. I don't think Dreadnought really competes in legacy by playing normal magic (exception for UR due to burn spells); there's a lot of pressure to identify and exploit rules in the most disruptive way possible to those playing normal legacy, without going A+B vertical combo.