[OLD] UGw Threshold

[Bardo]

Note: This thread is for the discussion and further development of Blue/Green/White Threshold only. Discussions on the other color splashes can be found elsewhere. As this thread is in the LMF, it will be heavily moderated to keep the discussion relevant and on-topic.

"Legacy Blue/Green/White Threshold"

I. Overview: What Threshold is About and How it Works

Threshold is the premier Aggro-Control deck in the current Legacy format. It's based around the eponymous Odyssey-block Threshold beaters, the best Blue and White control cards in the format and its characteristic low land count (only 17-18). The ultra-low curve of the deck, its free counters and plentiful cantrips allow it to play an aggressive tempo strategy to stomp randomness, go head-to-head with aggro, annoy dedicated control decks, and roll over combo--like Reset High Tide ("Solidarity") and Ill-Gotten Gains Combo ("IGGy Pop")--with its quick and efficient clock, Meddling Magi and copious arsenal of countermagic.

What sets Threshold apart from its more control-oriented peers that are also based around Blue spells, is the resiliency and cost-efficiency of its namesake threshold creatures. For a mere 1GG, you can drop 7-power of creature on the board ('Goose and 'Bear)--comfortably tapping out to do so because of FoW and Daze--and maintain your momentum with your counters to inflict fatal damage.

II. History and Proven Lists
Originally modeled after the 2001-02 era Extended Gro archetype, Legacy Threshold enjoyed a respectable amount of forum chatter, but with a lack of any meaningful events and willing/competent pilots, the deck remained a fairly anonymous Internet curio*.

This abruptly changed when Ian MacInnes (aka Cavern Ninja) took his "Dryadless Gro" deck (aka "Not Quite Gro" aka "NQG") to a First Place victory at Big Arse II (July 2005) in Syracuse, New York. His was the first public list to eschew maindeck Quirion Dryad, a perennial favorite of Johnnies and faux-Spikes the world over, and replace her with combo-busting goodness of Meddling Mage. And lo', the world rejoiced.

Legacy U/G/W Threshold
First Place. Big Arse II (July 2005)
by Ian MacInnes aka 'Cavern Ninja'

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict
4 Accumulated Knowledge

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
2 Stifle

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant

4 Werebear
4 Meddling Mage
2 Mystic Enforcers

4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Forest

Sideboard
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Armageddon
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tivadar’s Crusade
2 Honorable Passage
2 Phyrexian Furnace

If BA2 placed Threshold on the map, it was the deck's phenomenal success at Legacy's first Grand Prix (Philadelphia, November 2005), that had the Legacy community**, taking the deck seriously as a legitimate "Deck to Beat."

When the dust had settled, our own Ben Goodman (aka Ridiculous Hat) and Vintage Threshold pioneer Lam Phan (developer of "Bird Shit") had made the Top 8 with U/G/W Threshold, while Pat MacGregor took 6th place with U/G/R Threshold. Oh, how the champagne flowed.

Legacy U/G/W Threshold
Seventh Place. Grand Prix: Philadelphia (November 2005)
by Ben Goodman aka 'Ridiculous Hat'

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict
3 Sleight Of Hand

4 Force Of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
1 Disrupting Shoal

4 Swords To Plowshares
3 Pithing Needle

4 Meddling Mage
4 Werebear
3 Mystic Enforcer

4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

Sideboard
4 Hydroblast
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Armageddon
3 Tivadar's Crusade
2 Engineered Explosives

(A link to Ben's GP: Philly tournament report can be found at the end of this post.)

A mere five weeks later, at Grand Prix: Lille, Threshold placed yet another three people into the Top 8, but this time, they were all in the Top 3! Helmut Summersberger won the whole chimichanga with the new kid on the block: 4-color Threshold (U/G/r/w), besting Daniel Krutil with his teched out U/G/W Thresh in the finals. Nicolas Labarre made third place with U/G/R--which saw the return of Quirion Dryad and Isochron Scepter.

Legacy U/G/W Threshold
Second Place. Grand Prix: Lille (December 2005)
by Daniel Krutil

4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
3 Predict

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Worship

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Galina's Knight
2 Meddling Mage
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest

Sideboard
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Pithing Needle
3 Stifle
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Meddling Mage
2 Armageddon

Stand-out tech in the Krutil list includes maindeck Worship and Galina's Knight as well as Umezawa's Jitte in the sideboard.

But the story does not end there. With frequent success at the local level, as documented at morphling.de and in scattered tournament reports, Alix Hatfield (aka "Obfuscate Freely") with U/G/W Threshold would go on to split with Mike Herbig's High Tide in the finals of Kadilak's Dual Land Draft II this past April in Syracuse.

Legacy U/G/W Threshold
First Place (split). Kadilak's Dual Land Draft II (April 2006)
by Alix Hatfield

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Portent
4 Predict

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pithing Needle

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Daze

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath
3 Island
1 Forest

Sideboard
4 Tividar's Crusade
3 Nantuko Monastery
3 Naturalize
3 Meddling Mage
2 Blue Elemental Blast

(Update: I don't want this post to collapse under the weight of so many decklists, but I'll just mention that U/G/W Threshold also won Star City Games Duel for Duals III (July 8, 2006). You can see the list here.)

III. Thresh vs. The World

If you want some general pointers on how to play Threshold, see parts two and four of my Threshold series--including suggestions on which spells to have your Meddling Magi chanting against. But the real challenge of playing Thresh, from a novice's point of view, is knowing what matters at each phase of the game and in each match. The deck runs a enough counters to stop almost anything, but not enough that you can counter everything. Consequently, the difference between an average player and a strong player is knowing when it's safe to let Umezawa's Jitte (etc.) resolve, and when it needs to be stopped.

When I play the deck, I'm looking to get into a position where I don't care if [x] resolves (be it a Psychatog or Goblin Lackey), since I either have an alternate plan to deal with it, that doesn't involve my counters, or that the threat is irrelevant and my opponent may as well have played Didgeridoo since I plan on winning shortly.

vs. Goblins

This match can go either way and I'd say the match is somewhat in Goblins favor. Preboard, you have 12 ways to stop a first turn Lackey on the draw, and a full 26 ways to stop Lackey on the play. Mongoose is your Incinerator-proof Piledriver and Lackey chumper. If you draw enough removal, you can beat your opponent down with your ground pounders, but if the ground is locked up in a stalemate, you can win with the ultimate stalemate buster: Mystic Enforcer.

Tips:
- Don't be afraid to trade your Mongoose for a Lackey or a Werebear for a Piledriver
- Unless you're a gambler (and a bad one), fetch your basics first
- BEB Piledriver when he's on the stack (he's Pro: Blue when on the board)

vs. Sligh, Burn, R/G

Favorable. The burn player gets approximately three points of damage out of each of its spells, and Thresh gets approximately 7 damage of its. Compare Lightning Bolt for R with Mongoose for G and Incinerate for 1R with Werebear for 1G and you'll see what I mean. Thresh puts the Red deck on a menacing clock and needs only to stabilize at < 5 life. Then things get ugly with Hydroblast and the vicious Worship--for those who go that route.

Tips:
- Don't be afraid to soak up damage
- Cursed Scroll can be easily raced
- If Wasteland/Price of Progress...blah-blah-blah...fetch basic lands
- StP'ing your dudes is often the right play

vs. Affinity

Peculiarly favorable. It's strange, but I don't think I've ever lost a match to Affinity. I cover the match at some length in Part 4 of the Thresh Primer--so you might check that out if you haven't read it before. The games seems to progress to a land-based standstill and then, like Superman, Mystic Enforcer arrives to clobber my opponent silly.

Tips:
- Daze whatever the hell you can (well not, um, Chromatic Sphere), because Daze becomes useless quicker than usual
- Mage on Cranial Plating is often best
- If Vial is on the board, obviously don't set your Magi on opposing d00ds
- Don't be afraid to trade Werebears with Myr Enforcers
- Engineered Explosives beats the piss out of Ravagers, Atogs, Plating (two counters)

vs. Angel Stompy

Roughly even. I've played against Zilla a few times and it seems roughly equal. Angel Stompy has more dudes, but pound-for-pound, they're weaker than Thresh's. If Thresh devotes its control cards to containing the white deck's critters, it can safely let the equipment accumulate on the board with no one to wield them. Engineered Explosives, for those who play them, easily nets a two/three-for-one. Post-board, Tormod's Crypt goes a long way to making the match far more difficult for the Thresh player.

Tips:
- Explosives for 0 nukes face-down Angels and moxen
- Mongoose is immune to Parallax Wave--don't forget that
- Mystic Enforcer is a monster
- If you go to Thailand, remember to bring condoms

vs. W/R Rifter

Unfavorable. Meddling Mage should be set to "Swords to Plowshares" and all of your countermagic should be held for Humility. That card sucks. The best way I've found to win is to deny Rifter the late game it wants and put your opponent under quick and aggressive pressure. Rifter's life gain can also be a pain in the ass when you're within striking distance. Finally, Thresh gets a hell of lot of mileage out of single Armageddon

Tips:
- Save your counters for Humility
- Win quickly or you probably won't win at all
- Pithing Needle has a lot of juicy targets (Eternal Dragon, DoJ, Steppe/Cave, etc.)--consider them carefully

vs. High Tide and IGGy Pop/any storm-based combo deck

Highly favorable. Pleasantly, Thresh beats the ever-living piss out of any storm-based combo deck. The match percentages against combo are one of the things that make Thresh an attractive deck to play. Against High Tide I set my first Mage to "High Tide," against Tendrils decks, name the kill card and make them work for their bounce. Against Reset versions of High Tide, be careful about tapping out when you have Counterspell (even if you don't if you can afford to bluff) and casting too many spells per turn.

Tips:
- Don't get overconfidant
- Tendrils of Agony is a sorcery so play all of your spells on your turn

vs. Survival

Slightly favorable. I've heard that a lot of people would bet on Survival in this match, but my experiences would have me betting on Thresh, if the pilot knew what he was doing. Needle is gold, Meddling Mage is awesome, Birds are weak, and if you can keep Survival off the board (or contained with Pithing Needle) there's nothing you really can't deal with. Obviously, an active SotF makes the game much more annoying.

Tips:
- Be prepared to fight a slow battle of attrition when you reach the late game
- Survival is by far the most powerful card in their deck (the deck is freaking named after it, after all); be sure to aim all of your control cards at it and you should pull it through

vs. B/W Confidant aka Deadguy Ale

Slightly unfavorable. Head-to-head, my money's on Confidant--especially if it's maindecking Withered Wretch. Thresh is already land-light to begin with and as much as it wants to dump stuff into its graveyard, it can't easily recover from hand destruction. Thresh's draw engine (Predict aside), while efficient, never increases your hand size--it just finds goodies. And by packing more spells where land would normally go, it almost seems like you're drawing more cards than your opponent, but rather you're just seeing and choosing more cards than your opponent and drawing more spells than lands when you're both topdecking. And that is the dilemma when it comes to Deadguy. I will generally set my first Mage on Vindicate so that I don't shut off my own removal by naming StP--as you really need an answer to Confidant, Shade, and Hyppie when they arrive.

Tips:
- Even without seven cards in your graveyard, Enforcer is still money
- Leave your fetchlands on the board for as long as you can
- Fetch basics as aggressively as you can afford
- Don't be afraid to trade an unthreshed Mongoose/Werebear for Confidant

vs. Stax

Highly unfavorable. If you lose the die roll, seriously, go get lunch or a beer or something. As in Vintage, going second against Stax places you in a terrible position and fighting against a turn-1 Chalice for "1" or Trinisphere is often game. But if you do get to go first, being able to play a single cantrip and have Daze ready gives you a fighting chance. I'll usually set my first Meddling Mage to "Tangle Wire" so I can beat with impunity. Smokestack is too slow to matter and only has an effect on the games you've already lost. Post board you'll bring in artifact removal in place of your useless Swords to Plowshares.

Tips:
- Leave your fetchlands on the board for as long as possible.
- Fetch your basics or you'll lose
- Careful naming with Meddling Mage is more crucial than normal
- Win as quick as possible or you won't win at all

And that's about it.

IV. Appendix:

A. Ben Goodman's GP: Philly Threshold Report

B. Bardo's "Threshold/Super Gro Primer" at StarCityGames:

Part 1: Design and Construction
Part 2: Strategy and Tactics
Part 3: Tuning the Maindeck and Sideboard
Part 4: Sideboard Guide
Part 5: Reflections on Grand Prix: Lille

C. 'My own take on the archetype:

Legacy U/G/W Threshold
Lives in fucking Oregon. You do the math...
by Dan Spero aka 'Bardo'

4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Brainstorm

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Meddling Mage
1 Mystic Enforcer

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Sideboard
4 Hydroblast
3 Armageddon
2 Tivadar's Crusade
2 Naturalize
2 Worship
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mystic Enforcer


Questions to get the discussion rolling:

- What's the correct number of land? 17? 18?

- Should Thresh run off-color basics (Forest and/or Plains) or are basic Islands enough?

- What's the optimal cantrip base? How many should you run? 12? 14? 16? 18?

- Is Mental Note the nutz or chaff? What about Predict?

- Maindeck Meddling Mage: Hot or Not? In the sideboard?

- Maindeck Nimble Mongoose: Hot or Not? In the sideboard?

- 3 Daze or 4?

- Engineered Explosives: Hot or Not? In the sideboard, main deck or is it crap?

- Maindeck (or Sideboard) Worship: Hot or Not?

- How many Enforcers do you need? Maindeck 1-3? 0? Keep them in the sideboard?

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* Much like Legacy itself

** All thirty of us