The deck isn't dead, but it has some hard matchups that used to be fairly good. BUG can be hard, dealing with DRS into goyf, leovold or TNN is hard. Aluren is a very hard matchup, and food chain can be a beating aswell, D&T gets out of comtroll fast if they have a fast jailor, but i don't feel we're dead in any of these matchups. Just unfavored.
DnT is very favourable for me, I play taxes too (20 + top 8 with it) and aggro loam isn' t a good matchup.
I think the mathup is 60-40 preside and 70-30 postside for us (with toxic and cabal pit maindeck).
I' ve put the second copy of relic sage in side for take care of omnitell, aluren and food chain, in this heavy enchantment meta I think it will work.
It's still a deck, it just feels like with the way things currently we're worse off than we were a year ago. That's not a bad thing, I think the beauty of this deck is how easily it is adaptable. There is a reason this deck neither plays wild mongrel or countryside crusher anymore.Originally Posted by Eldrazi Grandfather
Are you talking about how I said I think that Thalia is worse than canonist as a hatebear? I still think that is true. If not you're going to have to enlighten me on what I said.
What BUG piles are we talking about? So this is how I feel about the assorted UB decks running around. The Aluren/Food Chain matchups are probably just going to be bad because we lose the inevitability in the matchups regardless of whatever hatebears we play.
Noble BUG: Roughly even, favored postboard or if you are running deluges in the main. This one really just comes down to if you have the answer to the TNN/Leo or not.
Food Chain: Unfavored, if they resolve a manipulate fate you may as well scoop.
Aluren: Unfavorable.
Shardless: Even to Favored.
Assorted UBxy Control Lists: Even. This is one matchup that probably gets super favorable if you are playing Thalias.
I'm not against the dark depths plan but I just think it's too unreliable. We're not lands so we can't get quick 20/20s and fling them at our opponents. The depths plan also comes with a cost to our manabase. That being said I have had games where I probably couldn't have won without a 20/20 but for the most part it feels like if you have an active knight for enough turns to assemble the combo do you really need the combo to win the game?
I think most of my matchups go something like this: we trade resources until both of us are out of gas, opponent does some value thing (Plays Leo, Manipulate Fate, Aluren, etc) while i'm durdling and the game is basically over.
I've thought the same about the deck. While chalice isn't exactly a house against BGx decks it's still usually a 1 for 20 againstplaying ones. Punishing Fire is basically a 2 for 1 infinite times. The point is that our 2 for 1s aren't really 2 for 1s anymore. We're basically exchanging resources 1 for 1 and in doing so we're losing all these silly value decks.
It's kind of weird that the person who suggests looking at newer ideas for the deck is constantly the one shutting them down.
What are you thinkin on cutting to fit the swamp. I run it before but without the cabal pit which I think we cannot manage doing right now.
Btw, I don't think the deck is dead at all, some matchups got closer but the tools are still there. If any1 is in need of more grind power, going back to 3 swords to plowshares might help.
Could we use the new heaven // hell or whatever card? Sweeps fliers and then non fliers, still plays well with Liliana and Loam since you can at least flashback the earthquake side.
Not sure if Starstorm/new Starstorm (cycle to save loam!) or straight Devastating Dreams would be better.
My way of evaluating sweepers:
-kills TNN it is an option
-NOPE
my opinion of course
Pretty much I think, if you can't kill TNN your sweeper has to be doing something else to get you ahead.
Snip - Removed gratuitous chat log. -Jander
That wasn't exactly what I said about the matchup, but wouldn't you say this is a shitty attitude to have if we are all trying to improve the deck?
Here are my thoughts on them:
Noble BUG: Besides your mentions of Deluge, sticking a knight not only answers their aggro plan by racing, but means I don't have to answer their threats. Frequently I've just bullied Leo with larger creatures.
Food Chain: In the one match I played, I had pfire lock G1&2. I don't have enough info to make a conclustion here.
Aluren: Unfavorable. Tho a friend of mine who follows my list has been stealing games from them by boarding in crop rotations and just racing. (Rotation was proposed as an alternate grave hate solution a while back, with the side benefit of racing our worst matchups)
Shardless: I've felt less than even, but the local shardless guy has moved onto something better.
Assorted UBxy Control Lists: Hardest part is not knowing which list the opponent is on. I tend to Lage them
There are plenty of situations where 2 turns with a knight actually does not end the game otherwise. TNN is a big one. I wouldn't say it is unreliable, more that it is slow. Knight is a virtual 6of, so being able to assemble it is actually super consistent. I'm also not playing lilis so the cost to my manabase is minimal, but I do agree that it would be a big deal otherwise.
When comparing to lands, our combo obviously seems slow and bad, but I don't think that is the right way to think about it. All we really invest is a knight activation, so we can pursue other gameplans while threatenning the combo. Its like we are playing Splinter Twin, but instead of the 2RR enchantment, we tap knight twice.
Another big difference here (I think) is I keep talking about how I'm doing things proactively and I do tend to play the deck pretty "aggressively". A lot of the problems we are talking about get worse if we are being a durdly control deck rather than playing aggro-control. Jace is less of a big deal, opponent can't take time off to cantrip without being punished, etc.
Is that referring to me or to you?It's kind of weird that the person who suggests looking at newer ideas for the deck is constantly the one shutting them down.
Nothing that neeley said wasa disrespectful....
You can argue that the other guy was, but neeley made a simple question a an argument(which I agree btw)
Talk with any proven miracles player and they'll say is a tough manage but about even. You always need multiple pieces to pose a threat.
Only chalice and they won't care, now if you couple it with a teeg or a library it starts pressuring them.
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The only problem I see with the crop rotation plan is that our grave hate gets worse. However the racing plan might be more benefic, got to test it out.
It wasn't Neeley's question but Haddock's response of "the source is such a shithole" that I was referring to.
I'm right there with you on Crop Rotation. I think if we were to play any it would be alongside the Leylines (without bog).
I'm pretty sure he's referring what I said when put politely is basically this site has a very very very low signal to noise ratio.
Isn't your approach just based on you playing a pretty different list than the stock kronberger list? It looks like your only outs to TNN are only racing with large KoTRs or Lage. Where as I have the potential to just kill their TNNs with lili. I don't really mind them leaving their TNNs back that just means that I get more time with KoTR to waste my opponent, few out more utility lands or just grow her. I get what the combo does and I understand how good it is in the BUG matchups, I just feel like if i'm ever put into a position with active knights and having the ability to combo out i'm more than likely winning that game anyways. The point that i'm trying to make is that it isn't a single card that i'm losing to but just a combination of cards.
I actually don't know what aggressively means in this context. It's obviously going to differ from game to game but usually i'll play cautiously i.e. not running out threats into obvious dazes, baiting removal with things like confidant and following that up with a knight, etc.
Yes and no. That's putting the cart in front of the horse a bit. I'm playing a non-stock list because I want to be playing in a different way. I do think it is very possible to adapt this stuff to the stock list, and there is a lot of room in between the two.
I think that is the wrong way to look at it. I'm almost never actually threatened by TNN. I'm playing 6 creatures that race it and 3 zeniths (if we allow scooze to eat 1 creature). I started playing my list largely as it is around the same time that Kronberger made his, meaning the meta was drowning in TNN decks. Pridemage was as much an adaptation to TNN as Lili was.
In a bunch of situations, if there is a proactive line and a more passive one, the more proactive one tends to pay off more. That's not to say I run business into daze if I can afford to wait. Simply put, matching threats with threats is easier and better than matching threats with answers in a non-blue deck. It also puts the opponents on the back foot, forces them to take time to deal with our knight/etc. If they are successful we just advance towards the late game, where our deck starts to dominate with stuff like Pfire and Loam.
Unfortunately I don't think I can describe this stuff very well. The above probably sounds like gibberish. Watching some of my videos (on the website) might make the best case for what I mean.
Kessig Wolf Run can do quite the number against TNN decks, has anyone given that card a run lately?
Lands, MUD, Stax, and Miracles.
When talking about lands I think we are pretty tight. The question is always what do we take out for a colorless land?
the only option I see is upping the land count to 27.
If we are going that way we have 3-4 options, basic swamp, DD, ghost quarter and Kessig. Kessig seems the worst of the bunch at first sight but only with a lot of testing we can reach a conclusion.
Yeah i'm not really feeling good about Kessig either, it looks really weak on paper if you don't have a knight out. The more I think about it the more merit I see in just playing a Centaur Vinecrasher like Aurelio Crespo did at European EW this year while being kind of weak to decks playing swords it allows you to go overtop of the BUG decks.
Yeah, Vinecrasher is straight insane against BUG decks. When I played Shardless, I could never beat that card in a million years. I don't think I'd play it maindeck but as a 1 of in the sideboard to bring in against bug decks trying to grind you out, it's great since you'll inevitably find it through GSZ or Loam and BUG decks probably don't have a way of getting rid of it for good unless they Surgical it, in which case I say go ahead and surgical my 1-of.
From nothing came teeth.
Might not be a bad idea to overload the graveyard recursion packages. Everyone is running Surgical these days, and cards like Fires, Loam and Knight are pretty juicy targets. Or toss in a Volrath's Stronghold and get the likes of Tireless Tracker to go to town after eating a few Abrupt Decays.
They can exile it with DRS too, but yeah, the card is a beast vs BUG.
Hi all,
Just wanted to pick your brain on Wasteland and Ghost Quarter. I read the discussion a few pages back. Currently I am trying 3 Wasteland and 1 GQ but what I am wondering is if anyone has tested 4 Wasteland and 1 GQ. Is having all 5 too much?
Cheers
I don't think so, I play a GQ in the board and am thinking about just bringing it into the main. I'll bring it in against most decks that aren't combo and d&t. It allows you another angle to attack from.
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