@iatee and medea_
That is a really good point re: removal changing. In fact, except for us and Stoneblade decks, who is going to be running a lot of white spells in general?
The dominant multi-color schemes seem to be Grixis, BUG, and 4C aka BUGR. Esper, unless it is Deathblade, doesn't seem like it will be a thing. UW is just a bad color combo in the format. Eldrazi seems to have largely gone back to Mono-Colorless, though W Eldrazi could see some revival I suppose. That means removal tilts hard towards Fatal Push and Lightning Bolt.
I would crack up if we end back up in a format where we need to sideboard Wilt-Leaf Liege for hand destruction. That isn't impossible.
I've always thought Cavern would be borderline unplayble without Miracles around.Originally Posted by staticgripeed
I have found Caverning out Magus of the Moon to be 'pretty good' even against non-Miracles decks. I probably wouldn't play it now in mono-W.
I don't get how a land that makes your important spells uncounterable as a one-of is bad at all. Especially with many people suggesting "combo summer" I think we're likely to see a spike in counterspells from blue decks to combat this. I never thought of cavern as a miracles-or-bust land, I just thought of it as a great utility land against all blue decks.
For the longest time, I've been playing both Orzhov Pontiff and Magus of the Moon in an otherwise mono-W list, powered by 4 Vials and 3 Caverns. I remember exactly two games where I lost due to an uncastable creature stuck in my hand, yet a lot of victories powered by either of the two. Even with Counterbalance out of the picture, I don't think Cavern is to be simply tossed aside. The colour fixing it provides for creature spells - of which we do play a few - is not to be underestimated. The peace of mind it provides when playing opponents with stack interaction is also something I really like.
i can agree on colo's post.. same experience for me , it "seems "slightly greedy, manawise.. but the upside is just too big ( even a one of copy of avenger was still very consitantly castable )
Random thought:
Should we just be playing more Ghost Quarters? Obviously its is too early to tell exactly that we will be facing, but I think it is pretty safe to assume that there will be significantly less basic lands running around. Miracles with its 6 or 7 basics is no longer a concern, and that plays more basics than almost anything. Other decks will range from 0 to 2. Against any Delver decks, 6 Strip Mines starts looking obnoxious. Against midrange decks, once they see a Port of a Vial they will aggressively start fetching for their basics. Elves will also generally start on Forest-Forest, which turns GQs into Strip Mines as early as turn two. If we expect Lands to pop up more, extra tools against Chasm, Maze, Tablernacle and friends are strong.
If you are splashing, then this might just be far too rough on the mana base, but something like 9 Plains, 3 Karakas, 1 Cavern, 2 Ghost Quarter, 4 Port, 4 Wasteland could be fine in mono-white. It is a little heavy on colorless but the power boost could be worth it. It also makes things like Warping Wail and Eldrazi Displacer pretty easy to support if they are things that end up being good (I'm skeptical but it is not out of the realm of possibility)
This will clearly depend on what the mana-bases look like on the other side of the table, but I think this is something to keep in mind.
Yesterday I have tested against 4c Aggro Loam with Blood and Taxes:
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Flickerwisp
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Harsh Mentor
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Plateau
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
3 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
1 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Hearth
I must said that early Harsh Mentor was really good. Opponent feels like playing modern: fetch for 3 life + pain for using KotR, Maze of Ith and other stuff. Even in late game when life total is low opponent couldn't use Life from the Loam in proper way.
In my opinion Cavern is good even without Miracles in the metagame. Sometimes resolved Thalia, Magus or even Mom can win game on it own against many decks (for example Delver or some BUG builds).
We are living in a time where greed may be rewarded. I really encourage you to try new things and report in after testing.
You're not alone. A majority of the "top decks" right now run off incredibly greedy manabases. The larger issue is figuring out the ratio of plains:utility lands. Wasteland is certainly a keeper IMO. Karakas is also a necessity. But then you need to determine the hierarchy of Port, GQ, Cavern, Canopy. I wouldn't rule out GQ usurping Port's role in the deck (blowing up ever-present non basics > tapping down the opponent). Harsh Mentor probably factors into this equation (your own or if opponents run them in bulk) but it's too early to call anything.
GQ does seem very good right now, and we lost the deck that Port was best against. It's possible that all the Tundra bros will give us new Port targets if they're playing Stoneblade variants, but it's also possible that GQ will just be a generally better card than Port for a while. A Path to Exile main would also seem viable for similar reasons.
Another thing I'm considering is a Cunning Sparkmage main. Similar to Sanctum Prelate, it has matchups where it's useless, and matchups where it's unbeatable. Obviously it's fantastic vs Elves, but it's also good vs Grixis Delver, which might be the best Delver deck. Also obviously great in the mirror, Infect, Aluren, a few other places. Sure, vs combo it is more or less a dead card, but so is Umezawa's Jitte, etc. Could also see maybe thinking about a Basilisk Collar somewhere with this plan. Collar is good vs fast decks, Eldrazi, burn, Gurmag Angler, doesn't require a huge mana investment (which is especially important now) and sometimes you'd just get the Sparkmage+Collar combo online to just demolish a fair matchup. I think equipment will be generally better because there will be fewer Pithing Needles, Abrupt Decays and Null Rods around.
The main I'm thinking about would have 1 Spirit, 1 Ethersworn, 1 Sparkmage, 2 Revoker, 4 SfM, X tutors, at least one Crusader, plus Maguses - even with all this crap you're still not favored vs Elves, which is sad. But it might be approaching like, 45% g1.
If you play GQ, I think Mindcensor is pretty much an auto-include? Makes Path out of the board a little better also.
Which is better, Cunning Sparkmage or Orzhov Pontiff?
In the black splash there is the option of Tymna the Weaver as a CA engine. Legendary, so Karakas tricks, lifelink seems pretty great also. Slap a sword on it and get in.
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Personally, I'd hesitate to move right to GQ over Port. I honestly feel like Port is probably the second best card in D&T, behind Vial, and the fact that we can and do run it is a key to our success. The issue with GQ is that sometimes it doesn't really do anything but lose you a land drop and cut them off one color. Port plus Thalia can often steal a variance game and the number of games I have won due to simply drawing say, two Ports and a Wasteland is nothing to scoff at.
Now, in some cases GQ might be as good as Port, but one key to not overlook is the ability to mode-switch with Port. At a certain point, you might need to equip and if you GQed you won't have as much mana as you do with Port.
I think there are still plenty of decks playing many things at sorcery speed where Port is still fantastic. In fact, just the other day I was lamenting there not being more decks for me to run Port in.
Just my two cents.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Finally had a few minutes to write up my thoughts. I echoed many of the things we've been discussing here to pass them on to a more generic audience.
@Secretly.A.Bee
I think Pontiff has more potential for abuse between blinking and the haunt thing. If I were going to pick one splash color, it would be red though. I want an "I win button" in Magus for the unknown metagame.
I just had a thought. DRS is going to be everywhere; why not in Death and Taxes? If we go with a black splash for Orzhov Pontiff, we get the black sources for DRS and fuel for our DRS. The only issue here is then we need to run a one of Savannah for the other activation. I think we could go 1 Savannah, 3 Scrub land, 6 fetches, 2 Plains. That would give use 10 sources, plus Vial, for DRS. I know this is most likely insane, but I was thinking if we can't beat them join them. It would also allow use to power out a turn 2 THC.
Is it just complete bat-shit crazy or only mildly crazy?
I think mom and vial are both better as 1-drops, and then it makes it worse to revoked it, and you now open yourself up to Harsh Mentor more than you did before. You will only get value out of your opponents graveyard for instants and sorceries, and that can leave him a wasted slot. I thought about an isamaru, but other than something similar, I don't think it's a good fit.
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I've experimented pretty extensively with Noble Hierarch in the past, and it didn't end up working out too well for me. The mana was a little shakey at times, and it just felt a little worse than Maverick.
That makes sense, as well as the comment before about our lack of fuel. I wonder if Maverick is the new Death and Taxes post Miracles?
Unrelated note: I find it funny that I just sold out of Miracles a couple of months ago to buy Death and Taxes (mostly because I wasn't enjoying Miracles, but a bit of concern about a possible Ban).
I don't think Maverick gains very much from Miracles being gone because Maverick was not a strong deck regardless of Miracles. Not a good deck for a fast combo meta, only an okay deck for a super fair meta.
Not enough fetchlands to feed DRS. I think you could probably build a Junk Vial deck, but it would look very different from DnT.
I see that you are not a true spike :)
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